Are there Muslims on this board? - Page 21 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14657970
Zamuel wrote:It differentiates MAN from the Animals ...

Not sure if you're trolling but circumcision for circumcision's sake is as bad as female genital mutilation IMO. Hacking off the foreskin or clitoris of babies and children is a disgusting practice.

However unlike FGM, there are medical problems associated with the foreskin. If you need circumcision then it should be performed. Not "just in case".
#14657986
Besoeker wrote:So anyone NOT circumsized is an animal??

As far as the God of Abrham is concerned, it would seem so. If the concept REALLY interests you ? You might find the Gilgamesh Saga of interest. Keep in mind it's largely symbolic.

Zam
#14658009
Besoeker wrote:So anyone NOT circumsized is an animal??

Zamuel wrote:As far as the God of Abrham is concerned, it would seem so. If the concept REALLY interests you ? You might find the Gilgamesh Saga of interest. Keep in mind it's largely symbolic. Zam

Not sure what Gilgamesh had to say about circumcision.
#14658080
About the principle advantage of circumcision, Zam wrote:A sign of civilized intent and a rejection of primitivism.


If this is the "positive" side of the practice, then it needs to be stopped.

Foot-binding is justifiable by the same reasons you mention. "Rejection of nature and a sign that the practitioner worships artifice."

Marshal Mcluhan mentioned that every technology involves extension(s) and amputation(s). In this case, both are negatives for human survival and life fulfillment.

1) Worshiping plastic/rejecting nature is harmful. This is the positive side of circumcision technology. The EXTENSION
2) Losing penis sensitivity and living your entire life with less sexual satisfaction is also negative. This part is the AMPUTATION

Are there any Mcluhanite Muslims on the board?
#14658158
Besoeker wrote:So anyone NOT circumsized is an animal??
Zamuel wrote:As far as the God of Abrham is concerned, it would seem so. If the concept REALLY interests you ? You might find the Gilgamesh Saga of interest. Keep in mind it's largely symbolic.
Besoeker wrote:Not sure what Gilgamesh had to say about circumcision.

Primitivism / Civilization ...

Zam
#14658233
Zamuel wrote:As far as the God of Abrham is concerned, it would seem so. If the concept REALLY interests you ? You might find the Gilgamesh Saga of interest. Keep in mind it's largely symbolic.


Besoeker wrote:Not sure what Gilgamesh had to say about circumcision.

Zamuel wrote:Primitivism / Civilization ...Zam

So what specifically did Gilgamesh say about circumcision?
And why is it of relevance today?
#14658239
Ok, lets back up ...

Besoeker wrote:So anyone NOT circumsized is an animal??

Circumcision demonstrates the difference between a civilized and a primitive man. This INTIMATE difference has a significant effect on a Man's self image. It conclusively proves to the "SELF" that it is something MORE / NOT THE SAME AS a natural animal. Unless you have experienced BOTH states this is not an easy comparison to envision. Through it's highly symbolic narrative the epic of Gilgamesh, particularly the Enkidu episode, demonstrates the social development of Man, from Animal - Human - Civilization. I like it because it doesn't just explain, it provokes ... comprehension.

AND ... circumcision is a reminder, one that a male is VERY unlikely to forget ...

Read the Epic ... follow in Enkidu's footsteps ... http://www.aina.org/books/eog/eog.pdf

Zam
#14658790
What people are those ? Where are these anti-capitalist revolutions taking place (besides your imagination?). Don't confuse reform with revolution. Corporate Capitalism is evolving, that's true ... Wealth is being redistributed ... this is an organic process, not a coercive one. Elitists would like to insulate themselves from it, but are finding that impossible.

When people protest and sand against sides of capitalism, they are considered in a way standing against capitalism.
The pure form of capitalism is the rule of those who has capital , whom are elitist, when we strip them away from their power more and more, capitalism is declining and the world is moving towards a more just system.

The Islamic Elite are hoping to hide behind Jihadist extremism, but that's a losing bet.

There is no such things as Islamic elites, elites don't care about religion nor any rules, if they did then the world would be a much different place.
Ruling over Muslims doesn't mean that you care about Islam, rather only means that Islam is a tool to ease the people into submitting to your rule, just like any other religion, and any type of ideology that might be present.

Islam is finding itself more and more constrained as the modern world closes in on it ... everywhere it turns it must confront and compete. In doing so, it is adopting the capitalistic methods that confront it, and will soon find itself homogenized into the modern world. No doubt there will be fundamentalist hold outs, but they will be isolated, ineffective, and increasingly unpopular.

You see, as Islam grows, it matures ...

Islam is valid for all times and places because it adopts and can hold many forms that fit the time and place being.

All in all, your points about the topic are infact the exact same as mine, simply we use different terms to describe it.

We have a different definition of "multiculturalism". My definition implies tolerance of other lifestyles independent of race, in fact the whole concept of race plays a small part as people of the same race can have different cultures (surprise, surprise).

That does not contradict the fact that the Muslim world is mutlicultural.
In reality Islam covered and integrated into many cultures and ideologies all over the history. Persian world is a good example.


Muslim countries were not secular at all

The bringing of the rule of god in all sides of Islam does not cancel secularism.
Islam is in a way secular and democratic because sheikhs do not have politcal authorities in it, but elected caliphs do.
Yet worshiping god is present all over because pleasing god is by good deeds and good leadership is worshiping god, justice and fairness of the state is worshiping god.
Secularism does not mean atheism, secularism simply means that being a sheikh or a priest does not mean you have any authorities for it.

The rest of the points are simply no where near factual.

@Syph
Keep calling something rubbish does not make your points correct, nor does it make you seem superior or smarter.

but circumcision for circumcision's sake is as bad as female genital mutilation IMO. Hacking off the foreskin or clitoris of babies and children is a disgusting practice.

Islam does not have female circumcisions, only males, and it has many known health reasons which are far more present in southern half of the world.
And for the entire idea of circumcision of girls, it is in fact mostly present in Christian not Muslim countries and areas.
So if you want to address it you should address it by it self, and not collapse the argument by associating it with Islam.
That is the main reason why there is rarely an agreement. Because you associate problems with certain ideologies or cultures or religions even if it is no where near factual. Which turns the argument from addressing issues in the world to simply attacks, personal or on groups.
#14659101
anasawad wrote:The bringing of the rule of god in all sides of Islam does not cancel secularism.
...Secularism does not mean atheism, secularism simply means that being a sheikh or a priest does not mean you have any authorities for it.

You don't really understand the concept of secularism, you are not using the term properly.
http://www.secularism.org.uk/ wrote:Secularism is a principle that involves two basic propositions. The first is the strict separation of the state from religious institutions. The second is that people of different religions and beliefs are equal before the law.

As a result the legal institutions are "atheistic" in that religion is irrelevant in dealing with legal propositions. Religious law is discarded if it violates civil law and much of Sharia violates civil law.

anasawad wrote:Keep calling something rubbish does not make your points correct, nor does it make you seem superior or smarter.

I call it rubbish because I believe it's immoral on humanistic moral principles which are more philosophically sound than religiously defined morality. "because God says so" doesn't cut it with me.

anasawad wrote:Islam does not have female circumcisions, only males, and it has many known health reasons which are far more present in southern half of the world.

The prevalence of FGM is much higher in Muslim majority countries. Read any UN study on the subject. It's a significant from Morocco to Indonesia.

anasawad wrote:So if you want to address it you should address it by it self, and not collapse the argument by associating it with Islam.

Islam needs to take responsibility for absorbing Arab traditions such as niqab and FGM into the cultural element of Islam. FGM is a problem in the Muslim world and sticking your head in the sand won't save young girls having their clitoris cut.
#14659124
You don't really understand the concept of secularism, you are not using the term properly.

As a result the legal institutions are "atheistic" in that religion is irrelevant in dealing with legal propositions. Religious law is discarded if it violates civil law and much of Sharia violates civil law.


Secularism is about seperation of state and church, or in better words religious figures do not have political or legal authorities, that is true in case of Islam.
How ever you seem to be thinking that in a secular state the laws are accounted on their source not on their results.
Which is not correct, at all, since most laws we have today in the world has at one point came from religion.
Even prophet mohammed is considered and attributed as a law giver not only in the Muslim world but even in the western world specially in UK and US.

You keep saying sharia law violates civil laws and sharia is immoral and all these.
Can you point out where exactly is it immoral ? with actual evidence, as in actual sharia law not what some people think is sharia law ?
Because personally from studying Islamic laws for almost my entire life, as we are taught all about it since we are kids.
I find that the western world infact has laws much more simillar to sharia law than Arab states for example.

I call it rubbish because I believe it's immoral on humanistic moral principles which are more philosophically sound than religiously defined morality. "because God says so" doesn't cut it with me.

God has wisdom in all of his words, and in practically all of it, we can see on human level the wisdom of it.
So "god said so" is the argument that idiots use. If you want to put an argument, bring examples of such laws and lets discuss whether it is moral or immoral.

The prevalence of FGM is much higher in Muslim majority countries. Read any UN study on the subject. It's a significant from Morocco to Indonesia.

Entirely incorrect, FGM is more common in Africa, and it is an African problem not Islamic problem.
Most Muslim countries don't have it, while many African countries like Ethiopia for example have it.
Most of Africa is christian for your knowledge, and Ethiopia with i believe the highest in the world is Christian.
So its a cultural not religious problem.

Islam needs to take responsibility for absorbing Arab traditions such as niqab and FGM into the cultural element of Islam. FGM is a problem in the Muslim world and sticking your head in the sand won't save young girls having their clitoris cut.


-Again, FGM is not an Islamic problem, its an African problem, and mostly in Christian Africa.
-Islam did not absorb Arab culture, nor it will ever do. How ever some Arab tribes did ignore Islamic teachings and returned to their previous culture, thats a problem with them, not with Muslims.
-FGM does not exist in the Arab culture, not now nor in former Islamic reign, nor before Islam.
#14659134
anasawad wrote:
-Again, FGM is not an Islamic problem, its an African problem, and mostly in Christian Africa.

According to a 2013 UNICEF report covering 29 countries in Africa and the Middle East, Egypt has the region's highest total number with 27.2 million women having undergone FGM,

The religion in Egypt is 88% Islam.
#14659167
Egypt has about %80-90 FGM rates, funny that would be bigger than 27 million and 'm making your argument for you.
Lets take this topic in a better view.
There is an area or better say a region in Africa called the great sahara. meaning the great desert.
Most of north and mid Africa are either part of it or considered sub saharan.
The FGM highest rates in the world exist in that region. And in fact, most girls to ever have FGM most probably live in that region.
Thats why when you look up pictures of FGM, its mostly Africans.
That Saharan and sub Saharan region is split into 2 halfs, the northern half is Muslims, the southern Half is Christian, with some mixed countries in both.
Now, why did i say its mostly a Christian problem. Well, because other than Egypt, the norther half is mostly empty deserts with oil companies filling it,not cities. While the southern and south east part of it which is mostly Christian, has some of the largest populations in Africa.
So, whats the main point ? its an African problem, not Islamic problem.
The only other parts of the world i know of to have a considerable rates of FGM are the kurds, the kurds are not Arabs, they're mixed in religions, and the main kurdish tribes had FGM since before not only Islam came along but even Christianity.
#14659351
Zamuel wrote:Circumcision demonstrates the difference between a civilized and a primitive man.
Besoeker wrote:With respect, I think that's nonsense. If I'm not cicumsised does that automatically make me primitive?

Kind of, yeah ... you can hang whatever label on it you like but you have a VERY different self image, than a circumcised male ... beginning with a self consciousness that often inspires an "Attitude" about the subject.

Zam
#14659985
Zamuel wrote:Circumcision demonstrates the difference between a civilized and a primitive man.


Besoeker wrote:With respect, I think that's nonsense. If I'm not cicumsised does that automatically make me primitive?


Zamuel wrote:Kind of, yeah ... you can hang whatever label on it you like but you have a VERY different self image, than a circumcised male ...
Zam

I do? Care to expound what those differences might be?
#14660032
Besoeker wrote:Care to expound what those differences might be?

Nah, I don't argue with primitive species ...

Zam
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