Martyrdom Jesus vs. Hussein - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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By Bosnjak
#1864026
Two religions hail martyrdom. Shia-Islam and Christianity.

Passion of Jesus, prosecuted by rabbis, executed by romans:


Imam Hussein, grandson of Mohammed, killed by Muslims:
By Aekos
#1864165
Jesus wasn't a martyr, so the comparison isn't appropriate
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By Cheesecake_Marmalade
#1864948
Well there are martyrs in canonical Catholicism, but Catholics are hardly monotheists.
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By Todd D.
#1865155
Christians aren't monotheists? News to me.

What's the point of this thread? As Aekos noted, Jesus was not a martyr.
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By Bosnjak
#1865175
In the Bibel there is only one phrase who speaks about the Trinity (some researchers do not consider this as authentic), I think trinity is only a methapher. There are also up to 20 different bibles 4 Main strains (Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox, Katharic)


The Quran is one, but there are about 8 different forms of reading, it is written without vocals, the original Quran. And old Arabic (as semitic language) is extremly heavy to translate. A Martyr can get either 70 Virgins, 70 grapes, 70 souls who follow him... And Abu Bakr who collected the Quranic Texts after the death of the Prophet. Abu Bakrs was killed, as he was collecting the scriptures, his blood flooded over the texts...


I think both religions have the same principle, justice over everything. This principle have Shias and Sufis and Hanefi-Sunnis. Hanbeli and Shafi and Salafi pray rather blind following of Authorities. the Father, the Hodza (preacher), the President you have blind to follow.
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By Todd D.
#1865190
In the Bibel there is only one phrase who speaks about the Trinity (some researchers do not consider this as authentic)

What? There are plenty. I'm assuming that the "one phrase" you are referring to is 1 John 5:7, but there is also Genesis 1:26 (Let us make man in our image, in our likeness), John 1:1 (the Word was with God, and the Word was God), Acts 7:55 (Stephen looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God), 2 Corinthians 13:14 (The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with all of you.), and especially Matthew 28:19 (Baptize all nations in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit).

I think trinity is only a methapher.

Why?

There are also different bibles 4 Main strains (Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox, Katharic)

I have no clue what "Katharic" is, but the Protestant, Catholic, and Orthodox canon of the New Testament are all identical.

I think both religions have the same principle, justice over everything.

The principle of Christianity is God sacrificing Himself to be reconciled with man, it is a personal God, "God among us". The principle of Islam is the opposite. Christians share a lot on common with Muslims, but they are very very different faiths.

Pope John Paul II: "Whoever knows the Old and New Testaments, and then reads the Koran, clearly sees the process by which it completely reduces Divine Revelation...Some of the most beautiful names in the human language are given to the God of the Koran, but He is ultimately a God outside of the world, a God who is only Majesty, never Emmanuel, God-with-us. Islam is not a religion of redemption."
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By Todd D.
#1865209
I am not an Admin, I can not do anything with Yellow Cards.

Even if you were to suggest Gnosticism is part of Christianity (which would be tough, considering the Manichaen view fundamentally contradicts Christian theology), the Bogomilist sect is so obscure that one can hardly include it in the list of "main Christian denominations" along with Protestant, Catholic, and Orthodox. It's basically been dead for the last 200 years anyway.

In other words, Gnostics don't really count.
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By Bosnjak
#1867121
Baptize all nations in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit


This can mean a lot, depends on intepretation, and more on the context.
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By Nets
#1894571
Bosnjak, I think Judaism had a nascent strain which glorified martyrdom which was expunged/tamped down by the Rabbis after the utter disasters of 66-70 and 142-145 AD.

For example, consider Maccabees 4, which is non-canonical in Judaism but has canonical status in some Christian churches AFAIK.

[25] There they burned him with maliciously contrived instruments, threw him down, and poured stinking liquids into his nostrils.
[26] When he was now burned to his very bones and about to expire, he lifted up his eyes to God and said,
[27] "You know, O God, that though I might have saved myself, I am dying in burning torments for the sake of the law.
[28] Be merciful to your people, and let our punishment suffice for them.
[29] Make my blood their purification, and take my life in exchange for theirs."
[30] And after he said this, the holy man died nobly in his tortures
, and by reason he resisted even to the very tortures of death for the sake of the law.


No doubt an influence on Christianity.

You may also be interested in the "Martyrology" service which happens on Yom-Kippur afternoon in between Torah reading and Musaf.

The Ten Martyrs (Aseret Harugei Malchut עשרת הרוגי מלכות) refers to a group of ten rabbis living during the era of the Mishnah who were martyred by the Romans in the period after the destruction of the second Temple. Although all ten could not have been killed at the same time since two of the rabbis listed lived well before the other eight - they are listed together, in a manner of a dramatic poem (known as the Eleh Ezkera) recited on two important Jewish holidays, to elicit the proper mood of the day, one of reflection and the hope of redemption in the face of attacks to the beliefs of Judaism.

The term "martyrology" is also used about the story of the deaths (martyrdom) of several famous Rabbis (including Rabbi Akiva) by Romans, read both on Yom Kippur and Tisha b'Av. The deaths were gruesome, including, being wrapped in Torah scrolls and then being set aflame . See also Midrash Eleh Ezkerah.

The rabbis mentioned lived over a period of several hundred years and their stories are presented as a plot by Romans and others to weaken Jews by destroying Jewish leadership.


So as time progressed the concept of martyrdom shifted from an active, resistance-themed one (i.e. the Maccabees fighting the Greeks) to a more passive one of sticking to your beliefs but not actively rocking the boat.

The former concept was revived though with Zionism, particularly Joseph Trumpledor's death in 1920.

---
Edit: I forgot Samson, a prime example of a martyr in Judaism, and a big influence in current Israeli thought.
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By Potemkin
#1894581
For example, consider Maccabees 4, which is non-canonical in Judaism but has canonical status in some Christian churches AFAIK.

The passage is from the Fourth Book of Maccabees 6:25-30. My understanding is that the Catholic Church accepted only the first two of the Books of Maccabees as being canonical scripture at the Council of Trent. The Protestants, of course, reject all of the Apocrypha as being, well, aprocryphal. The passage you quote is therefore not canonical scripture in any Christian denomination.

That's not to say that these texts - or at least the attitudes which inspired them - didn't have a formative influence on Christianity when it was first crystallising, of course.
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By Nets
#1894586
Thanks for the info, Potemkin, I was under the impression that the first four were canonical in some churches, but now I see that it is only the first two.

It is easy to see why they are not canonical in Judaism though, it would conflict the Rabbis recasting of Channukah from a military celebration to some dinky holiday about magical olive oil.
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By Donna
#1895216
The whole thing with Jesus' death is defining of Christianity. With Hussein, it was just a shitty thing that kind of happened.
By Huntster
#1895351
Jesus wasn't a martyr, so the comparison isn't appropriate


How so?:

–noun
1. a person who willingly suffers death rather than renounce his or her religion.
2. a person who is put to death or endures great suffering on behalf of any belief, principle, or cause: a martyr to the cause of social justice.
3. a person who undergoes severe or constant suffering: a martyr to severe headaches.
4. a person who seeks sympathy or attention by feigning or exaggerating pain, deprivation, etc.
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By Nets
#1895657
^ All of your definitions define a martyr as a person.
By Huntster
#1895667
All of your definitions define a martyr as a person.


Person:

–noun
1. a human being, whether man, woman, or child: The table seats four persons.
2. a human being as distinguished from an animal or a thing.
3. Sociology. an individual human being, esp. with reference to his or her social relationships and behavioral patterns as conditioned by the culture.
4. Philosophy. a self-conscious or rational being.
5. the actual self or individual personality of a human being: You ought not to generalize, but to consider the person you are dealing with.
6. the body of a living human being, sometimes including the clothes being worn: He had no money on his person.
7. the body in its external aspect: an attractive person to look at.
8. a character, part, or role, as in a play or story.
9. an individual of distinction or importance.
10. a person not entitled to social recognition or respect.
11. Law. a human being (natural person) or a group of human beings, a corporation, a partnership, an estate, or other legal entity (artificial person or juristic person) recognized by law as having rights and duties.
12. Grammar. a category found in many languages that is used to distinguish between the speaker of an utterance and those to or about whom he or she is speaking. In English there are three persons in the pronouns, the first represented by I and we, the second by you, and the third by he, she, it, and they. Most verbs have distinct third person singular forms in the present tense, as writes; the verb be has, in addition, a first person singular form am.
13. Theology. any of the three hypostases or modes of being in the Trinity, namely the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.


Again, why was Jesus of Nazareth not a martyr?
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