[Paradigm]

I think most Christians are pretty sure what they mean by the Father and the Son, but few seem to be able to articulate what the third aspect of the trinity is all about. I've looked it up, and there seems to be wide disagreement among Christians. As near as I can tell, the Holy Spirit has something to do with the dynamic, active aspect of God, or God working within the world. I've also seen allusions to the Holy Spirit actually being the feminine aspect of God. This makes sense when one considers that the dove, which is used to represent the Holy Spirit, has historically been seen as a feminine symbol. Does this sound about right? What is your interpretation?

[Prosthetic Conscience]

There are thoughts that the Holy Spirit was a development of the idea of an embodiment of 'wisdom', or 'Sophia' in Greek. See, for instance, chapters 7 and 8 of the book 'The Wisdom of Solomon' (apocryphal in some versions of the Bible), in which 'wisdom' is referred to as feminine. Sophia is also sometimes a feminine embodiment in other religions.

I think the mention of the Holy Spirit in the New Testament as an agent of God, rather than an aspect, and the complete lack of mention of the Trinity in the Bible (the nearest you get is a couple of times of listing 'Father, Son and Holy Spirit') points to the Trinity being a development some time after Jesus. It may have been under the influence of other religions, and possibly neoplationism - see for instance, Plotinus' idea, in the 3rd century AD, or a trinity of 'The One', and 'Intellect' emanating from that, and 'Soul' emanating from that (though the influence might be the other way round too). Perhaps, as you say, it was felt that "God working within the world" was needed; since the promises of the return of Christ had failed to come true, a renewed emphasis was needed on God, in some form, continuing to work with, and be present in, the world. So the Holy Spirit, previously a 'gift from God', was 'promoted' to being an aspect of God. Competing with other religions, the message of "God came to Earth, died, but hasn't returned for over a century" may not have been proving that popular.

[netochka]

I believe the Holy Spirit may have developed in order to explain the phenomena, such as the "gifts of the Spirit," to include bizarre behaviours such as glossolalia (speaking in tongues).

[ChristianRight]

Post Script: I want to say before you read the rest, the Holy Spirit is an experience and like any experience it is difficult to share with those who have not experienced it. I can articulate how it feels to be baptized by the Holy Spirit but I cannot anymore tell you how it is than I could tell you how it is to be drunk were none of you imbibers of alcohol. Unless you experience it you simply cannot know how deep the rabbit hole goes.

No, the Holy Spirit (regardless of what it is, just like we cannot describe colors to the blind) is a shared experience of Christians. The baptism of the holy spirit is the salvation of a person and it is to Christians, not to Jews, not to Muslims, not to Buddhists, Hindi, Shinto, etc. etc. No other religion can, or even bothers to describe the Holy Spirit.

Its effects appear in large part to be God in your heart, or His agent, that is to say if you pray, and listen, the thoughts you have (because it's not like you hear a voice but more like you have an inner monologue) aren't really yours, you have keen insight or work out problems in ways you just couldn't when you were just thinking about something rather than praying.

The holy spirit fills you in a conversion experience and I can describe mine as being like an earthquake and it was indeed quite profound, not all experience it or even remember their conversion experience as many Christians are born into Christianity, and have often been baptized by the Holy Spirit (separate from water immersion baptism) at an age they cannot really remember well.

I also experienced that, I feel now, led by the Holy Spirit (you cannot discern your actions as sin without the Holy Spirit, and indeed guilt is a pressure you feel from society without it, but with the Holy Spirit guilt is a pressure you feel more powerfully, more profoundly, and more acutely than any society could ever teach you), so being led by the Holy Spirit I feel I had been born as a Christian, having been raised in a church, I can now recognize blaspheming the holy spirit.

Blaspheming the holy spirit is not an experience many people can articulate, if you never have the Holy Spirit you never have known it and cannot know you are blaspheming it, if you have the holy spirit you most likely aren't going to blaspheme it. But at an early age I did, and I can describe it now in memory as like tearing a cloak from me, until I was atheist...until I tore away the Holy Spirit and left an empty shell in my heart and convinced myself there was no God.

A bit of a way later I come back to Christ, I finally feel I can sincerely ask for him to take my heart, to fill me with the Holy Spirit and I already articulated some of that experience.

The Holy Spirit also drives you apart from yourself, before I had the Holy Spirit I had no interest in reading the Bible, but since then I've been driven as with zeal to read the Bible.

Why the change in my mood? Why the "addiction"? The Holy Spirit.

That's about as much as I can articulate it at the present...we'll see what comments this raises and I'll go from there.

[netochka]

Why the change in my mood? Why the "addiction"? The Holy Spirit.

And that is precisely what I think the Holy Spirit is - an addiction to a spiritual experience. A religious experience can truly be an overwhelmingly powerful experience and when one is under the influence, it is impossible to believe it could be anything other than other-worldy. I have personally experienced everything you have described above, but I now believe it was neurochemically induced. However, at the time, no one would ever have been able to convince me otherwise.

[ChristianRight]

Netochka I highly doubt you had spiritual experiences without artificial interferences such as meditation, fasting, even interaction with nature which often makes one feel "spiritual".

There's a vast difference from sitting in bed and asking for the baptism of the holy spirit, alone, and feeling an earthquake...and taking mushrooms and seeing things in a different manner and saying you are seeing the spirit world.

There's no scientific experiment that supports your belief....just throwing that out there...likewise there's no science proving my belief of the Holy Spirit either.

But ultimately, if you cannot read the Bible and see how obvious it is that Jesus is the Christ, you don't get it, and you don't have it...

It is impossible for me to refute the evidence that Jesus is the Christ, not because I'm blinded by "faith", but because the scriptures are now so obvious, when I read Isaiah prophesying His coming, or when I read Genesis and God declares his promise to Abraham that the nations of the world will be saved by his seed. Or when I read of Paul saying how obvious it was that Christ was in the Old Testament after Christ's resurrection and Paul became baptized by the Holy Spirit.

These things are also common experiences among Christians and reading logically, making rational logical arguments for the Prophecies in the Old Testament being fulfilled in the New Testament is not a "neurochemical" reaction to some "spiritual influence" and I can most assuredly declare that I doubt you have ever considered yourself "Christian".

Or if you did, you failed to even know what Christianity was...

[netochka]

Netochka I highly doubt you had spiritual experiences without artificial interferences such as meditation, fasting, even interaction with nature which often makes one feel "spiritual".

Wrong. Sorry to inform you. I do not meditate or fast - never have, really. My experience was very much the same, I am sure, as any other Christian who experienced being baptized in the spirit and receiving gifts of the Holy Spirit. I have spent years studying and reading The Bible and also attended a Christian university. Ultimately, it was intense study of the Bible and origins of it and Christianity that led me to my disbelief. I fully realize this may be difficult for you to accept or understand. How can anyone reject the Holy Spirit after having truly experienced it and Jesus Christ?

[Aekos]

But ultimately, if you cannot read the Bible and see how obvious it is that Jesus is the Christ, you don't get it, and you don't have it...

I can most assuredly declare that I doubt you have ever considered yourself "Christian".

Or if you did, you failed to even know what Christianity was...

. You call yourself a Christian? A follower of Christ? As was stated before, your sheer intolerance for others betrays the fact you don't practice what you preach. You're no Christian, you're a hypocrite. What church do you say you adhere to?

[ChristianRight]

Neto it's hardly "hard to accept or appreciate" it's simply a fact that the Scriptures talks of numerous people who say they are Christian but never were and that simply describes you. This is why as Christians, not able to see into others' hearts we cannot truly know whether or not someone is "saved" but by their works we can deduce it - also in the scriptures - and by your work of trying to lead people from the Bible and God by some faux experience of your own simply proves you never had the Holy Spirit.

Further evidence would come from simply asking you to further articulate your experiences with the Holy Spirit, God, and your prayers to Jesus Christ....because I bet you cannot.

[netochka]

You are asking someone who does not believe in Christ to provide evidence he or she was a Christian? Does this not sound ludicrous to you?

Provide evidence there is a god.

I am not trying to lure you away from your beliefs. I am simply stating mine.

Enjoy your Christ!

[ChristianRight]

Wait wait, so you never believed in Christ? Then you cannot even compare what I have said and claim it as your own, period. I'm sure whatever you thought you were feeling as some kind of "spiritualism" is about the same as what I feel when I drink some amazing microbrews.

[netochka]

Reread what I said slowly. I have bolded the tenses for you.

[ChristianRight]

No, what I'm saying is you cannot claim to have ever been baptized by the Holy Spirit and say "well it was all baloney" and have actually been baptized by the Holy Spirit that is directly in the scriptures as tangible evidence that such a person was never with Christ to begin with.

[netochka]

If that is what you think that is fine with me. Obviously, I don't believe the scriptures. And I was never under the influence of anything except prayer from others and myself.

[ChristianRight]

Yes which leads me to believe that with my inadequate (and it truly is inadequate) articulation of the profundity of being filled by the Holy Spirit, you are somehow confusing your own experiences with the shared experience of Christians everywhere.

I would simply understand this to be no different than a person buzzed on tobacco from a Cigar trying to liken it to being drunk off wine. Wine, beer, liquor, tobacco, caffeine, weed, and etc. all have different "buzzes" you know? To say because you have tried one of those and therefore understand the others is simply not true.

A friend of mine has tried mushrooms but I could not fathom what it really would be like to be "booming".

With the Holy Spirit, I think it's more confusing because if you've tried it you're on it, if you're not on it you've never tried it...to quote Philip K. from A Scanner Darkly

So many people haven't tried it but they may consider their experiences in spiritualism to be the same when it is not. Just as a person may say that their weed experience is the same as another's utter loss and addiction to cocaine.

Spiritualism is definitely the weed, Christ is definitely the Cocaine. The Holy Spirit consumes you there's no other way to put it. How can it not? The Baptism requires you to give your heart over fully to the Holy Spirit. You surrender your will and you ask God to command your heart.

[netochka]

You can believe as you wish. Unlike you, I have no vested interest in defending a faith.

[ChristianRight]

I don't think apologetics is rooted in the Holy Spirit. Only a person baptized by the Holy Spirit can know that part of Christianity. Christian Evangelism is rooted not in the shared experience of the Holy Spirit, but in the spreading of the word which a rational person can see the Truth of it.

[netochka]

Well, you seem to be doing a good job of convincing yourself that someone you don't even know was never a Christian nor ever baptized in the Spirit.

[ChristianRight]

Well you admitted to it that's what I was going off of.

[netochka]

Huh? All I admitted to was that I was no longer a Christian.