[Oxymoron]

I would like to start a debate about different faiths, possibly gain some information from a source and ask questions and obviously debate them. Lets keep it civil, and try to learn from each other.

I think we should begin with the most prominent religion on PoFo which is Christianity.

So I ask the Christians this question:

Is praying to a Cross, Jesus on a cross, European depictions of Jesus, or and the Saints considered Idol worship. If not, or If so elaborate on your position.

[Todd D.]

No.

Christians are not "praying to" a cross. They are praying to Christ (or, if they are Catholic / Orthodox, perhaps "praying to" a Saint), with the image, icon, or statue being a method they use to focus and concentrate their efforts. They are representatives of things, not the things themselves.

[Brio]

What about that iconography/worship surrounding the Virgin Mary/Saints in Catholicism? At least some Catholics indeed do pray to them.

[Todd D.]

Catholics do indeed pray to Saints / Mary, but that is not "worship" in the sense that most Protestants consider it. It is respect and veneration (which nobody should really deny is due to both Mary and the Saints), and requests for intercession (which is really no different than if you were to ask me to pray for you). The contention appears to be the level of respect given to Mary in Catholicism, which some Protestants feel "crowds out" the proper worship and adoration due to God / Jesus. I would suggest, however, that paying proper respect and attention to the entire family of God (which includes both Mary as the Mother of God, and the Saints as brothers and sisters in Christ) leads us to a fuller understanding and appreciation of our faith.

"Pray" is a word that literally means "request". It does not necessarily mean "worship".

[Oxymoron]

Tood can you explain then the wording of the Commandment and how it applies here?

[Todd D.]

What commandment? The one about idol worship?

The First Commandment (in Catholicism) is as follows:

2I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery;
3 Do not have any other gods before me.

4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me,

6 but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.

The Protestant faiths generally split the 1st Commandment in to two (and later combine the Catholic 9th and 10th Commandments as simply "Do not covet"), and have their 2nd Commandment begin at Verse 4.

As for how it pertains to the Catholic view of images, this is from the Catechism:

2129 The divine injunction included the prohibition of every representation of God by the hand of man. Deuteronomy explains: "Since you saw no form on the day that the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, beware lest you act corruptly by making a graven image for yourselves, in the form of any figure. . . . "66 It is the absolutely transcendent God who revealed himself to Israel. "He is the all," but at the same time "he is greater than all his works."67 He is "the author of beauty."68

2130 Nevertheless, already in the Old Testament, God ordained or permitted the making of images that pointed symbolically toward salvation by the incarnate Word: so it was with the bronze serpent, the ark of the covenant, and the cherubim.69

2131 Basing itself on the mystery of the incarnate Word, the seventh ecumenical council at Nicaea (787) justified against the iconoclasts the veneration of icons - of Christ, but also of the Mother of God, the angels, and all the saints. By becoming incarnate, the Son of God introduced a new "economy" of images.

2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, "the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype," and "whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it."70 The honor paid to sacred images is a "respectful veneration," not the adoration due to God alone:

Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. The movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, but tends toward that whose image it is.

[Paradigm]

I find it interesting that many Protestants don't consider Catholics to be Christian for the same reason that many Sunnis don't consider Shiites to be Muslim.

[Dan]

Is praying to a Cross, Jesus on a cross, European depictions of Jesus, or and the Saints considered Idol worship. If not, or If so elaborate on your position.

If one is praying to the cross, to the depiction, or to the saints, then yes, it is.

If one is praying to God with the cross or depictions as symbols or as aspects leading to God, as Todd's quote put it, then I don't think. If one prays to God and asks the saints or Mary to intercede with God on behalf of their prayer then I don't think it would be idoltry, but I do think it is extra-Biblical and unnecessary.

[Oxymoron]

5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me,

That seems rather strange could some one explain that part. I for one think that seals the deal with me and my detachement from Judaism. That and my debate with a Rabbi about Dinosaurs.

[Todd D.]

Why? God created literally everything in existence. If you were responsible for such an immense miracle, how would you feel if someone 1) Denied that you even existed, or 2) Gave credit to something else (which, depending on what you believe, is either non-existent or very well might be sinister)?

Nothing wrong with jealousy, provided that it is righteous.

[Paradigm]

Why? God created literally everything in existence. If you were responsible for such an immense miracle, how would you feel if someone 1) Denied that you even existed, or 2) Gave credit to something else (which, depending on what you believe, is either non-existent or very well might be sinister)?

Well, if I were an insecure douchebag, I'd feel pretty bad. If, on the other hand, I was a being of pure love and goodness, I'm pretty sure I'd feel more forgiving of people's ignorance, especially given my reluctance to prove my existence to them.

[Lucky Strike]

I think of these icons more like tools to help focus the mind on prayer. For instance, focusing the visual field on, say, the cross gives a constant visual reminder of the suffering of Christ, and pushes away other distractions. Worshipping a cross - giving the cross praise and asking it to do stuff for you - sounds like idolatry, but I've never heard of anyone actually doing that.

Think about someone meditating who closes their eyes and goes to a quiet place to meditate. Is merely closing their eyes in the quiet going to cause meditation? No, there is a separate act. But the environment is conducive to it. Thinking about a koan or some saying of the Buddha isn't worshipping Buddha or the koan; instead, it focuses the mind to get it out of the normal subject-object mode and into a contemplative state.

[Maxim Litvinov]

Apart from intercessory prayer hardly having a great Biblical record (not to mention things like the immaculate conception being extra-Biblical), the idea of having 'special people' put your prayers to God necessarily distances your 'conversation with God' through prayer and it's pretty clear this is neither necessary or beneficial: Jesus directs us to pray directly to God.

Having a whole sequence of prayers to Mary (the Rosary) is really going overboard in the view of Protestants, let alone giving the so-called 'saints' a special position when their whole existence is extra-Biblical too.

Other than that, as others have said, I am yet to see anyone 'worship' or 'idolise' crosses or statues of Mary or similar.

[Oxymoron]

God created literally everything in existence. If you were responsible for such an immense miracle, how would you feel if someone 1) Denied that you even existed, or 2) Gave credit to something else (which, depending on what you believe, is either non-existent or very well might be sinister)?

Nothing wrong with jealousy, provided that it is righteous.

God is not human, we cannot even fathom God properly and it is sinful to do so, yet we have him acting like a bad Ex Girlfriend. Again its purely my interpetation of it.

[Todd D.]

Apart from intercessory prayer hardly having a great Biblical record (not to mention things like the immaculate conception being extra-Biblical), the idea of having 'special people' put your prayers to God necessarily distances your 'conversation with God' through prayer and it's pretty clear this is neither necessary or beneficial: Jesus directs us to pray directly to God.

Not one Protestant that I've ever met has ever told me that praying for someone else is wrong. Likewise, you'd be hard pressed to find a Protestant that tells you that Church isn't important, because it brings the community of God closer by worshiping together. The only difference between the Catholic position and the Protestant position is that Catholics do not believe you stop being a member of the Body of Christ once you die. If anything, you become CLOSER to God, and keeping a relationship with those that are closer to God.

The Protestant idea that intercessionairy prayer "distances your conversation with God" doesn't make any sense when you consider other actions that both Protestants and Catholics agree are important. We agree that prayers together, while on Earth, brings us closer to God. Why then would prayers together, while one is literally with God, distance those on Earth from God?

let alone giving the so-called 'saints' a special position when their whole existence is extra-Biblical too.

Saints' existence is extra-biblical?

7It was also given to him to (A)make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over (B)every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.

(this refers specifically to Saints on earth, but clearly "Saints" exist.

More specifically:

3 Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a golden censer; and much incense was given to him, so that he might add it to the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar which was before the throne.

4And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, went up before God out of the angel's hand.

Saints are members of the Church that have gone to Heaven. Those that the Catholic Church have canonized are ones that the Church officially recognizes as having done so, but it doesn't mean that others haven't. A Saint is someone that has a relationship with God, whether it be on Earth or after they have passed.

[Maxim Litvinov]

Not one Protestant that I've ever met has ever told me that praying for someone else is wrong.

A tricky argument but not a convincing one. Having someone on Earth pray for you has obvious potential value: someone else puts the matter before God (no evidence this helps, but none it hurts), someone else has your problems in their heart and there's no evidence it hurts. Having a congregation pray together for a sick person has a good result even without trying to consider whether it makes the prayer more efficacious - it's a way of uniting people behind a cause.

Praying to 'saints' is different. The Catholic position is that there are these 'special' Christians which basically have special powers and that this can be determined by the church in Rome and the pope. Once dead people get their sainthood - being awarded certificates from the Holy Father, basically - then they are set aside as being dead guys and girls we should channel our prayers through. They are even given specialisations in the prayer bureaucracy - certain saints 'guard' and 'protect' certain people, if you're a carpenter you may wear one representation of a saint around your neck, if you're a musician you might pray to another saint, if you want to protect your house some people bury a figure of St Joseph in the ground around it for good luck - after all, Joseph was a carpenter.

The fact is that the Catholic position involves all of this extra-Biblical stuff and while Catholics certainly do pray straight to God this messed up system of getting particular 'revered' people to entreat God on your behalf just (a) means unwarranted reverence to certain Christians that went before (b) comes dangerously close to polytheism at times and (c) means that people aren't entreating God directly. Prima facie this means a distancing of the dialogue just like me entreating Dan to tell you something means distancing the dialogue between us.

Saints' existence is extra-biblical?

Yes. The word 'saint' is Biblical, but this whole beatification/canonisation stuff is straight out of lalaland.

Saints are members of the Church that have gone to Heaven.

Not really. The Bible talks about saints on Earth. See Acts 9:13, for instance.

A Saint is someone that has a relationship with God, whether it be on Earth or after they have passed.

Protestants agree. They just recognise there's no good rationale in getting from that step to singling out certain saints, wearing their likenesses around your neck and getting dead people to pray on your behalf.

[Todd D.]

A tricky argument but not a convincing one. Having someone on Earth pray for you has obvious potential value: someone else puts the matter before God (no evidence this helps, but none it hurts), someone else has your problems in their heart and there's no evidence it hurts. Having a congregation pray together for a sick person has a good result even without trying to consider whether it makes the prayer more efficacious - it's a way of uniting people behind a cause.

We agree here.

Praying to 'saints' is different. The Catholic position is that there are these 'special' Christians which basically have special powers and that this can be determined by the church in Rome and the pope. Once dead people get their sainthood - being awarded certificates from the Holy Father, basically - then they are set aside as being dead guys and girls we should channel our prayers through.

This is absolutely false. ALL Christians are Saints.

From the Catechsim:
960 The Church is a "communion of saints": this expression refers first to the "holy things" (sancta), above all the Eucharist, by which "the unity of believers, who form one body in Christ, is both represented and brought about" (LG 3).

961 The term "communion of saints" refers also to the communion of "holy persons" (sancti) in Christ who "died for all," so that what each one does or suffers in and for Christ bears fruit for all.

962 "We believe in the communion of all the faithful of Christ, those who are pilgrims on earth, the dead who are being purified, and the blessed in heaven, all together forming one Church; and we believe that in this communion, the merciful love of God and his saints is always [attentive] to our prayers"

There are people that the Church has specifically recognized as "Saints", but that does NOT mean that others are not saints.

I suggest you do more research on the Catholic position. The only way that it is "different" than what you described above is that the Saints in question have already passed on to be with God. That's it. If you accept that asking someone to pray for you while they are on Earth is beneficial, you can not conclude then that asking someone to pray for you while they are with God is "distancing".

[The fact is that the Catholic position involves all of this extra-Biblical stuff and while Catholics certainly do pray straight to God this messed up system of getting particular 'revered' people to entreat God on your behalf just (a) means unwarranted reverence to certain Christians that went before

If this is true, then you must conclude that asking someone here on Earth to pray for you is giving them "unwarranted reverence".

(b) comes dangerously close to polytheism at times

It can for those that do not properly understand the tradition, I agree. The Catholic position itself, however, is not polytheistic.

(c) means that people aren't entreating God directly. Prima facie this means a distancing of the dialogue just like me entreating Dan to tell you something means distancing the dialogue between us.

Again, are you suggesting that me asking you to pray for me is "distancing"?

Not really. The Bible talks about saints on Earth. See Acts 9:13, for instance.

I was referring to the Catholic sense of the word that you were using. As I stated above, Saints are all Christians.

Protestants agree. They just recognise there's no good rationale in getting from that step to singling out certain saints, wearing their likenesses around your neck and getting dead people to pray on your behalf.

This is the crux of the issue. Why do you believe a Saint ceases the ability to intercede on your behalf AFTER they die, when we both agree that they have that ability to intercede on your behalf BEFORE they die?

[Maxim Litvinov]

This is absolutely false. ALL Christians are Saints.

Oh, that's what I believe. It may also be what Catholics are supposed to believe. This doesn't mean it's reflected in practice. Fact is that there are a whole lot of especially venerated dead chaps and chicks which people pray to.

If you accept that asking someone to pray for you while they are on Earth is beneficial, you can not conclude then that asking someone to pray for you while they are with God is "distancing".

Again, this is a false argument. Having your church pray for you means asking people you know well to put you in their thoughts and prayers - there's something communal going on which makes the whole process efficacious and worthy without having to believe that God will somehow react differently whether there are 10 or 200 supplicants or what the 'quality' of the supplicants is. Having others pray for you on Earth is also not seen as a substitute for you praying at all - it's not You > Them > God so much as You > God + Them > God. By constantly praying 'via' St Whatever you are privileging that saint as some sort of special supplicant, which is extra-Biblical and a case of over-reverence.

If this is true, then you must conclude that asking someone here on Earth to pray for you is giving them "unwarranted reverence".

Wrong. Catholics don't pray via (the dead and saintly) Joe Bloggs, but via Mary. This isn't just coincidence - the only logic is that there is some sort of privilege being accorded to those that can been canonised etc. In contrast, asking your parents to pray for you isn't done because you think they are especially Godly at all, but because they are especially close to you.

Again, are you suggesting that me asking you to pray for me is "distancing"?

If I get you to pray on my behalf to God rather than praying to God directly then that is distancing.

Why do you believe a Saint ceases the ability to intercede on your behalf AFTER they die, when we both agree that they have that ability to intercede on your behalf BEFORE they die?

The question about whether dead people can pray is not the crux of the issue at all. The question is why you'd get the Pope to give people special honours and then get your flock to all pray via them and accord them special extra-Biblical roles when all of this brouhaha actually detracts from you just sitting down and communicating directly with God.

[Todd D.]

Oh, that's what I believe. It may also be what Catholics are supposed to believe. This doesn't mean it's reflected in practice. Fact is that there are a whole lot of especially venerated dead chaps and chicks which people pray to.

But again, praying to a "dead chap" does not mean that all living Christians aren't saints. It merely notes that the Body of Christ is not separated by Death.

Again, this is a false argument. Having your church pray for you means asking people you know well to put you in their thoughts and prayers - there's something communal going on which makes the whole process efficacious and worthy without having to believe that God will somehow react differently whether there are 10 or 200 supplicants or what the 'quality' of the supplicants is. Having others pray for you on Earth is also not seen as a substitute for you praying at all - it's not You > Them > God so much as You > God + Them > God. By constantly praying 'via' St Whatever you are privileging that saint as some sort of special supplicant, which is extra-Biblical and a case of over-reverence.

You are misunderstanding the Catholic position on intercessory prayer. The very idea behind it is precisely what you said, there is something communal going on. Praying to a Saint is not seen as a substitute for praying to God. It's INTERCESSION, in pretty much the exact manner that you described.

Remember, "pray" literally means "to ask", not "to worship". Praying to a Saint is ASKING for them to intercede for us. It is not adoration or sacrificial worship that is due to God alone.

Wrong. Catholics don't pray via (the dead and saintly) Joe Bloggs, but via Mary. This isn't just coincidence - the only logic is that there is some sort of privilege being accorded to those that can been canonised etc. In contrast, asking your parents to pray for you isn't done because you think they are especially Godly at all, but because they are especially close to you.

Theoretically, Catholics (and all Christians, quite frankly), are supposed to be especially close with the Mother of the Lord as well as the Lord. That's an assumption that is made by asking them to pray for you. You are supposed to be one with the family of God, whether they be here on Earth (your family, your congregation), or already with God (Mary, the Saints). The form is no different.

If I get you to pray on my behalf to God rather than praying to God directly then that is distancing.

The Bible outright recommends intercessory prayer. Even if your objection is that communion with those that have already passed is extra-biblical (which it very well might be, but since Catholics don't believe in the Protestant concept of Sola Scriptura, it's largely irrelevant), you can not say that praying FOR (rather than with) someone else is extra-biblical.

The question about whether dead people can pray is not the crux of the issue at all. The question is why you'd get the Pope to give people special honours and then get your flock to all pray via them and accord them special extra-Biblical roles when all of this brouhaha actually detracts from you just sitting down and communicating directly with God.

Because it doesn't detract, it brings you closer. I find to be a largely Protestant invention to be largely individualistic in your faith. The "Me and Jesus and that's all" isn't something that Catholics believe. By praying to Saints (both here and in Heaven), praying to the Blessed Virgin, and praying FOR others, you enter more richly in to the family of God, you become more and more familiar with the whole Body of Christ. It's quite the opposite of distancing, it brings you closer to God, in my opinion.

[Maxim Litvinov]

But again, praying to a "dead chap" does not mean that all living Christians aren't saints.

It's possible for the Catholic Church to have an official position that everyone is a saint and to let everyone spend all their time talking about "the saints" and praying to a handful of specific saints and having Lives of the Saints in book form and canonising and beatifying people and talking about whether someone's been made a saint yet, and producing statues of saints... It's pretty unconvincing to then try the argument that all Christians are kindof the same in the church's eyes though.

Praying to a Saint is not seen as a substitute for praying to God.

It is, though. If Dan intercedes in a conversation between you and me, he is being used as a substitute for us communicating directly.

It is not adoration or sacrificial worship that is due to God alone.

The logic is that these special saints are a more worthwhile way of praying than directly to God. It doesn't really make much sense, but some possible rationales for why this is so is that (a) God doesn't have the time for us or (b) they've got special powers that others don't have or (c) that we should be communicating with these special saints because they are worthy. All of those reasons still see people directing supplicatory traffic via saints when both Catholics and Protestants recognise it isn't necessary.

The fact that it isn't necessary and it just results in a less direct relationship with God apart from anything else is a reason to reject it. When you then add in the potential idolatry that tends to occur in some circles (eg. treating depictions of Joseph as though they've got special power, having a major ritual of prayer directed to Mary rather than God) it's even more of a nightmare.

Theoretically, Catholics (and all Christians, quite frankly), are supposed to be especially close with the Mother of the Lord as well as the Lord.

We know this. The question really is why one should introduce all sorts of extra-Biblical powers to Mary. The simplest answer tends to be that you've got a religion that can reach a broader church if you accept in practice a sort of 'extension' of the Godhead which is female and motherly. Mary worship/veneration may not be Biblical, but it is sure useful in getting converts and keeping them.

The Bible outright recommends intercessory prayer.

No. One can make the argument that it's possible, but the Bible certainly doesn't "recommend" it, let alone special veneration of Mary or 'special saints'.

...but since Catholics don't believe in the Protestant concept of Sola Scriptura, it's largely irrelevant...

That might be a convenient crutch to fall back on, but what you're basically saying is "as a Catholic, we can just make shit up and believe anything - it doesn't have to be in the Bible and whether it is or not is irrelevant". Well, I agree - this saints debate is great evidence for that.