[Zyx]

This discussion from Socrates bothers me with regard the Lucifer story that I remember from early childhood.

Socrates, debating the merits of morality and immorality with, I believe, Glaucon, is pressured to consent that an absolutely immoral person would appear absolutely moral but receive rewards whereas an absolutely moral person would appear immoral and be chastised and punished.

The absolutely immoral in Christian (maybe Abrahamic) theology is Lucifer. Looking into his track record though, he wasn't, on the face of it, 'immoral.' I mean, if morality is defined as disobeying God then yes he was immoral, but if morality is separate from God, then what had he done wrong? From my memory, he just did not want to bow to humans, and that is not really that bad. Why, beside from by God's order, should an Angel bow to a human? His other actions, say, giving humans knowledge or telling Jesus not to die, aren't immoral either.

I find it strange how most of Lucifer's actions were misanthropic, but, from the perspective of him being an Angel, not immoral.

Is Lucifer the most moral or the most immoral? I am boggled.

[Suska]

If I recall the story properly Plato posited an immoral and a moral person and for the sake of the story supposed them to appear opposite so that the immoral person seemed moral in every way. The difference, he said, was the moral person would be happy.

They're just stories. The Lucifer from the Bible was a part of a creation story accounting for the existence of evil. Its not the same character as Satan - the most heinous embodiment of evil. Think of Lucifer as a betrayer and Satan as an adversary.

[ninurta]

The Lucifer from the Bible

Is one of the famous mistranslations of the hebrew bible. Lucifer was never in Israel nor was there a concept of the devil there associated with the Roman God of the Morning Star. Or greek, I forgot which.

was a part of a creation story accounting for the existence of evil. Its not the same character as Satan - the most heinous embodiment of evil. Think of Lucifer as a betrayer and Satan as an adversary.

No, Lucifer was never a part of any biblical creation story. Nor is Lucifer satan, Ha Satan is YHWH's angel who goes to earth to pick out peoples flaws and report to YHWH how people are doing resisting temptation. This is the jewish version, but after all, it is their god and their satan first.

Lucifer never appears in the bible, except in the mistranslation of a story irrelevant to creation.

[Suska]

Lucifer was never in Israel nor was there a concept of the devil there associated with the Roman God of the Morning Star. Or greek, I forgot which.

Lucifer is a fictional character.

Did you know the Dutch call matches lucifers? Did you know the morning star is Venus? Did you know its also the evening star?

Lucifer is described differently in different stories but he remains to us an archangel during the war in heaven. Satan also has deep roots and many faces but in general he is an adversary and a temptor. The story varies author to author, time to time - the legitimacy of the characters and the story itself (its truth, its value) is in the art and act of the telling... if not also the reading...

St. Jerome (In Isaiah 1:14), makes Lucifer the name of the principal fallen angel who must lament the loss of his original glory bright as the morning star. In Christian tradition this meaning of Lucifer has prevailed; the Fathers maintain that Lucifer is not the proper name of the devil, but denotes only the state from which he has fallen

[ninurta]

Lucifer is a fictional character.

Did you know the Dutch call matches lucifers? Did you know the morning star is Venus? Did you know its also the evening star?

Nah, Venus is the Roman Goddess of love and beauty. yes I know that she too was associated with it, and yes I know that in real life its the planet venus. [/quote]

Lucifer is a roman deity, is he fictional? It depends, are you a roman pagan, do you believe in him? Obviously from what you are saying you don't, but does it really matter? Never knew that about the dutch, nice to know.

Just to let you know, YHWH is a fictional character to me, because its not my religion, so its all a matter of opinion and religion.

Lucifer is described differently in different stories but he remains to us an archangel during the war in heaven. Satan also has deep roots and many faces but in general he is an adversary and a temptor. The story varies author to author, time to time - the legitimacy of the characters and the story itself (its truth, its value) is in the art and act of the telling... if not also the reading...

I was only talking about the original satan and original lucifer, and not the catholic myths I am unaware of. But thats interesting to know, I like to learn about mythology. Where can I read more?

St. Jerome (In Isaiah 1:14), makes Lucifer the name of the principal fallen angel who must lament the loss of his original glory bright as the morning star. In Christian tradition this meaning of Lucifer has prevailed; the Fathers maintain that Lucifer is not the proper name of the devil, but denotes only the state from which he has fallen"

The problem is that thats a mistranslation and St. Jerome was a moron to not realize or at least ask a jew what that story was really about. It was referencing a tale having to do with what was a canaanite god/but also something in judaism evidently. maybe a fallen angel, but not in what St. Jerome was talking about.

[Potemkin]

The problem is that thats a mistranslation and St. Jerome was a moron to not realize or at least ask a jew what that story was really about.

Actually, Jerome is famous for having consulted with leading Jewish religious authorities while preparing his translation of the Bible. Either this was one of his few slips, or he was misinformed.

[ninurta]

Actually, Jerome is famous for having consulted with leading Jewish religious authorities while preparing his translation of the Bible. Either this was one of his few slips, or he was misinformed.

Maybe he was misinformed and built upon his misinformation?

Shalim wasn't exactly a saint in jewish literature, if he is even in there. I know that he isn't Lucifer, Lucifer is the morning star, as Shalim was the dawn itself, that's the goddess Aurora.

Shalim wasn't evil nor a fallen angel.