[Seeker721]

you believe in 2 sets of books. The old testament, and the new.

So let's compare.

OLD | NEW
------------------------------------------------------------
God | God + Jesus + Holy Spirit
Vengeance | Turn the other cheek
No fantasy | Parables and apocolypse
-------------------------------------------------------------

I have alot of other problems, but I will start with these.

The old testament would say, "There is only one God."
The new testament says there is someone we should worship that is seperate from God(sitting on the right hand of the 'father').

Old testament, God would say things like "Vengeance is mine." "I the Lord am a warrior"
New testament, turn your cheek, walk extra miles, be very overly nice to anyone(unless they are pharisees, in which case they are snakes and should be whipped and have their money tables overturned)

Old testament, if there ever was anything 'strange', like beasts rising up from the sea or dragons dragging down stars, it would have been clearly stated that they were dreams.
New testament does not make these distinctions. In fact Jesus talks about keeping secrets(speaking in parables).

Also, why is Jesus(who is supposed to BE God) out there screaming that God forsook him while on the cross?
I personally have never been able to forsake myself(though sometimes i wish i could).

I say, I believe in the one true God, but I do not seem to find him in the new testament passages.
What say you?

[SecretSquirrel]

this goes in the agora

[Negotiator]

The bible never talks about three gods, or the trinity. It only states that Jesus serves a special purpose - he is "the light of the world" and "the door to god" - and the holy spirit is something like that, too. The old testament contains elements like that already in ambundance, they're called angels. It has been the early christians who interpreted the bible in such a way that they introduced the trinity. There have always been churches and single christians who dont follow this interpretation, though.

Muslims are really obsessed with the trinity. They want to prove that christian belief is not monotheistic because it has the trinity. I really dont care though, and I dont understand the muslims obsession with monotheism in the first place.

Religion always changes over time, because people change over time. I prefer to believe we all get wiser, so our religion gets wiser, too. Also, everyone has a different idea about what god is, so there are not two believers who really have the same belief.

Old testament also contains many examples where god forgives his believers, really all the time. That this would only be part of the new testament is a myth that can be falsified by actually reading the bible.

Also, new testament contains examples of violence. Jesus got angry when he saw the merchants in the temple. It is true that the new testament focusses more on love, but the first two laws of christianity - love god without limits, and love your neighbour like yourself - are already present in the old testament.

No idea what your problem is with the third question.

[Seeker721]

Yes God has always forgiven those who asked, but never those who did not. Jesus constantly preaches about forgiving no matter what.
If you read the psalms you will see much of what 'jesus' said, was plagarized. All the forgiveness and saving, well David already had that sort of relationship with God. So why do we need jesus again?

Also, what is the point of having a messiah that doesn't save you?

And 2 rules? Sorry, but God wrote down 10. I dont know why jesus thinks its ok to change that, but I doubt the creator of the universe is going to suddenly decide, "Maybe 10 was too many, lets go to 2.".

I don't believe in religion, and the bible(old testament) is not the end all for me. I see God in nature, everywhere.

But it is undeniable that christians believe in several gods. If they didnt, then why would they make the conjecture that the angels that visited abraham, on the eve of sodoms destruction, were all 'gods'?(father, son, holy spirit) <---Just so you know it was angels that visited abraham, not gods.

And the new testament clearly talks about different gods. How can christ sit on the 'right hand of the father' if he is in fact the father? How can he be the only way to God, when he was supposed to be God?

[Suska]

If you are a sincere Christian you can discard the OT. Problem solved.

[Kapanda]

"Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill." - Matthew 5:17

Seeker, if your queries are honest, I suggest you read the Bible in its entirity, be it still a long piece of work. Many of your queries are not congruent with what is written.

[Fasces]

The old testament would say, "There is only one God."
The new testament says there is someone we should worship that is seperate from God(sitting on the right hand of the 'father').

The Old Testement says no such thing - merely that one should hold no other god before YHWH. The Jewish belief system does not discount the existence of other gods, but merely relegates them as unworthy of worship when compared to "the" God.

That being said, the New Testament is similar. It does not worship multiple deities, but multiple incarnations of a single deity. Jesus does not literally sit at the right hand of the father on some golden throne, though symbolic rhetoric is a bit subtle for someone of your understanding.

Also, why is Jesus(who is supposed to BE God) out there screaming that God forsook him while on the cross?
I personally have never been able to forsake myself(though sometimes i wish i could).

At the time of the writing of the Gospels, the divinity of Jesus Christ was in contention. This does not mean he is not divine, or an incarnation of God, merely that such a belief had not become widely accepted at the time. Take that as you will.

Yes God has always forgiven those who asked, but never those who did not. Jesus constantly preaches about forgiving no matter what.

Do you have a specific quote? While Jesus most certainly does ask of his followers to forgive those who do them wrong, this act is itself one of power and superiority, not one of acquiescence.

And 2 rules? Sorry, but God wrote down 10. I dont know why jesus thinks its ok to change that, but I doubt the creator of the universe is going to suddenly decide, "Maybe 10 was too many, lets go to 2.".

God actually has many more than 10 commandments. http://www.cbcg.org/beliefs_l&cog.htm

[Todd D.]

The old testament would say, "There is only one God."
The new testament says there is someone we should worship that is seperate from God(sitting on the right hand of the 'father').

The NT says no such thing, considering that Christianity believes Jesus IS God, not "seperate from God".

Further, the Trinity is implied even in OT scripture: Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness... - Genesis 1:26

Old testament, God would say things like "Vengeance is mine." "I the Lord am a warrior"
New testament, turn your cheek, walk extra miles, be very overly nice to anyone(unless they are pharisees, in which case they are snakes and should be whipped and have their money tables overturned)

What contradiction is there here? God says "Vengeance is mine", adn then says to humans (who, last I checked are not God) that judgment is not theirs'.

Old testament, if there ever was anything 'strange', like beasts rising up from the sea or dragons dragging down stars, it would have been clearly stated that they were dreams.
New testament does not make these distinctions. In fact Jesus talks about keeping secrets(speaking in parables).

I don't understand your point here.

Also, why is Jesus(who is supposed to BE God) out there screaming that God forsook him while on the cross?
I personally have never been able to forsake myself(though sometimes i wish i could).

He is quoting a Psalm, specifically Psalm 22

All the forgiveness and saving, well David already had that sort of relationship with God. So why do we need jesus again?

David did not have "that sort" of relationship with God. David was a man, born with sin just like the rest of us. The OT is filled with David making poor decisions. Jesus was like us in all things BUT sin, and while He was fully man, He was also fully God. Big difference there.

And 2 rules? Sorry, but God wrote down 10. I dont know why jesus thinks its ok to change that, but I doubt the creator of the universe is going to suddenly decide, "Maybe 10 was too many, lets go to 2.".

Jesus summed up the 10 (which actually aren't 10, but whatever), in to two statements. There's no "changing" of anything.

But it is undeniable that christians believe in several gods.

Uh, that's not undeniable. Quite the opposite actually. It's flat out false.

If they didnt, then why would they make the conjecture that the angels that visited abraham, on the eve of sodoms destruction, were all 'gods'?(father, son, holy spirit) <---Just so you know it was angels that visited abraham, not gods.

What are you talking about? Christians believe that three angels visited Abraham, not three deities.

And the new testament clearly talks about different gods. How can christ sit on the 'right hand of the father' if he is in fact the father?

Christ is not The Father, Christ is the Son. However, it is still the same God. What you're asking is akin to me saying "How can my right arm be on the right side of my body if it is my body? How can it not be my head if it is still on my body?" It's pure nonsense.

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three in one. Three aspects of the same God, not three independent deities.

[Nets]

No offense, Seeker, but it doesn't seem like you have the best knowledge of the OT.

Old testament, if there ever was anything 'strange', like beasts rising up from the sea or dragons dragging down stars, it would have been clearly stated that they were dreams.
New testament does not make these distinctions. In fact Jesus talks about keeping secrets(speaking in parables).

What? Jonah and the whale? The Angel with his sword over Jerusalem? The ghost of Samuel and the witch of Endor? Balaam's talking donkey?

Yes God has always forgiven those who asked, but never those who did not. Jesus constantly preaches about forgiving no matter what.

If you read the psalms you will see much of what 'jesus' said, was plagarized. All the forgiveness and saving, well David already had that sort of relationship with God. So why do we need jesus again?

The relationship between King David and God is nothing like that of Jesus and God. David was a completely falliable human being with a massive amount of blood on his hands, not to mention the whole Batsheva thing. Could you ever imagine Jesus doing any of that? Jesus was God's one and only son (according to Christianity), whereas King David wasn't even holy enough to be allowed to build the first temple.

And 2 rules? Sorry, but God wrote down 10. I dont know why jesus thinks its ok to change that, but I doubt the creator of the universe is going to suddenly decide, "Maybe 10 was too many, lets go to 2.".

Well, technically the OT has 613 rules (about a third of which relate to temple practices are no longer applicable). The Ten commandments are a subset of these 613. Paraphrasing the laws isn't the same as disregarding or ignoring them. For example, Rabbi Hillel summarized all of Judaism in one rule, (the commonly known golden rule).

[RedMANAChocobo]

If you are a sincere Christian you can discard the OT. Problem solved.

Basically,

4Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question:
36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'[b] 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Thats all a Christian has to do, Follow the Law of Agape. Commiting Murder, Stealing, Rape, etc., Violates the Law of Agape.

The old testament would say, "There is only one God."

No, It does not. It does not deny the existence of other deities, Pagan people have their own deities.

[Agent Steel]

Geez pal, why can't you just let the religious believers have one section of the forum for themselves? We're mostly atheists here. You should have made this topic in the agora.