The Trinity: Christianity's mystical secret - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

Wandering the information superhighway, he came upon the last refuge of civilization, PoFo, the only forum on the internet ...

An atheist-free area for those of religious belief to discuss religious topics.

Moderator: PoFo Agora Mods

Forum rules: No one line posts please. Religious topics may be discussed here or in The Agora. However, this forum is intended specifically as an area for those with religious belief to discuss religion without threads being derailed by atheist arguments. Please respect that. Political topics regarding religion belong in the Religion forum in the Political Issues section.
#14331234
Probably the most mysterious doctrine in Christianity is that of the Trinity. No one seems to agree on what it means exactly, and many simply reject it as nonsense. Yet so much of early Christian history was defined by fierce battles over this doctrine. This was a mystery that no one seemed to be able to grasp, and yet many felt compelled to defend to the death. It all centered around the mystery of the figure of Jesus, and his nature as fully human and fully divine. Figures like Irenaeus made harsh denunciations of the Gnostics, who saw Jesus as fully divine and only pretending to be human, and the Arians, who saw him as the highest created being, but not divine. This "fully human, fully divine" paradox required a third term, which was found in the Holy Spirit, and yet there seems to be little agreement on what the Holy Spirit is. St. Augustine simply saw it as the love between the Father and Son, but this relationship hardly seems worthy of being personified as a "third person" of the Trinity. Modern feminist theologies have sought to conceptualize the Holy Spirit as the divine feminine, associating it with divine Sophia, or wisdom. There is good support for this, as the Holy Spirit is usually depicted as a dove, which is a traditionally feminine symbol. Furthermore, biblical descriptions of "spirit" seem to involve traditionally feminine attributes, such as care, mercy, love, etc. And yet, there seems to be more going on here. There is something about the number three that is mystically significant.

Karl Jaspers coined the term "Axial Age" to describe a period from around 800 to 200 B.C. in which several thinkers arose in both the East and West who laid the groundwork for the world religions we know today. These include Confucius, Siddhartha Gautama, Lao Tzu, Mahavira, Zoroaster, Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, the great Hebrew prophets such as Isaiah and Jeremiah, and the authors of the Upanishads. Amid the myriad of views expressed by these thinkers, there was a common thread linking them together, described by Aldous Huxley as the "perennial philosophy." The perennial philosophy was essentially a binary system: good and evil, masculine and feminine, yin an yang, spirit and matter. There is also a sense of timelessness to these categories. The perennial philosophy is essential an atemporal worldview, where the passage of time is an illusion brought about by our finite existence, as opposed to the infinite reality that lay beyond the world of experience. The goal is to ascend our earthly bounds and seek the infinite unmanifest from which we have descended. The density of matter is contrasted with the lightness of spirit, so that as embodied, material beings, we are distant from spirit. Our bodies are a kind of prison, as it were.

Christianity absorbed much of this philosophy in the form of Neoplatonism, in which the manifest world emanates down from the perfection of spirit. However, this has never quite fit, and much of Christianity's turbulent history can be understood as a result of trying to fit a trinary system into a binary metaphysics. The deep intuition behind the Trinity was a powerful force trying to break itself free.

The early 20th century mystic G.I. Gurdjieff developed a system of thought based on what he saw as two universal laws: The Law of Seven and the Law of Three. The Law of Seven is beyond the scope of my focus here, but anyone interested is encouraged to investigate it further. The Law of Three is the fundamental principle of creativity. It is how all creation flows. The idea that when you have two opposing forces, a third term is needed to let the energy flow, which creates a fourth term in a new dimension. This should not be confused with the Hegelian dialectic, in which the third term (synthesis) is produced by the first and second (thesis and antithesis). Nor should the third term be thought of as a compromise between the first two. Don't think "red - yellow - orange." Think "red paint - yellow paint - paintbrush." No, the third term stands on equal footing with the first two, and it is by breaking the symmetry of the first two that creativity is allowed to flow. The Holy Spirit breaks the symmetry of God the Father and God the Son, and lets divine love flow outward as Agape.

The dynamic metaphysics of three, as opposed to the balanced metaphysics of two, is a metaphysics of becoming. In this cosmology, the density of matter does not mean distance from spirit, but rather a continual immanent unfolding of spirit. This is how God can "become flesh" without losing any of his divine essence. The God who was present in Jesus Christ is also present in the unfolding of history. This insight was intuited by Teilhard de Chardin, who saw in the progress of time a becoming of spirit through what he called the "law of complexity/consciousness," in which complexity of matter and expansion of consciousness went hand-in-hand. A Trinitarian God is one who reveals him/her/itself in history.

The influence of Eastern spirituality has led many people today to emphasize the importance "non-dual" awareness. The idea is to surpass the dual categories we have and see every thing as a pure mystical unity that transcends categories. But whereas this approach, coming from the perennial philosophy, solves the problem of the two by subtraction from two to one, the Trinity solves it by the addition of the third. The subtractive approach seeks to return us to some primordial unity, but the additive approach of Christianity takes us to a greater unity that lies ahead. This is non-dual Becoming rather than non-dual Being. This gives us a mysticism of participation rather than withdrawal. We partake in the becoming of God. If one reads the letters of St. Paul, one is confronted with a theology of participation. "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." (Gal 2:20) We participate in the life, death, and resurrection of Christ. In fact, passages where he speaks of "faith in Christ" (Gr. Pistis Christos) might better be translated as "faithfulness of Christ," in which we participate. Imitatio dei -- "imitation of God" -- has long been a core doctrine of Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy. “God became man that man might become God,” said the early church father Athanasius. This theosis -- union with God -- has been the pursuit of Christian mystics throughout the centuries.

The corruption of the concept of the Trinity comes from Christianity's inheritance from the Hellenistic world of the Aristotelian concept of substance and the Platonic concept of emanation. These are two-dimensional frameworks that don't serve the emergence of an three-dimensional worldview. The phenomenon of creationism is perhaps one of Christianity's biggest embarrassments. This Neoplatonic worldview of permanent categories and changeless Being fails to grasp the intrinsically evolutionary character of the Trinity. But this is because Christians had long mistakenly understood the Trinity in terms of substance or "persons" when they should have been thinking in terms of process. By surpassing the Neoplatonic categories in which it has long been uncomfortably squeezed, Christianity can realize its own metaphysical genius and claim its destiny as the practice of participatory becoming with and through God.
#14333104
Oxymoron wrote:I have always viewed it as:

God : Abstract concept of all powerful
Son: Gods presence in the real
Spirit: the connection between the two

That's pretty much in line with Augustine's view. But as I pointed out, such a view comes from a binary metaphysics, and I think the trinity was a kind of ternary metaphysics trying to break loose from such confines.
#14333107
Interestingly enough, Kepler believed that he had found cosmological analogues to the Holy Trinity. He believed that the Sun is God the Father, the sphere of the fixed stars is God the Son, and the void (or 'pneuma') connecting them is the Holy Spirit.
#14333113
Paradigm wrote: And yet, there seems to be more going on here. There is something about the number three that is mystically significant.

.


I am guilty of reading too much into what others say, however, there are three types of characteristics to the 120 estimated characters of molecular elements making up the substance of everything within this atmosphere, inorganic and organic.

3 separated dimensions but when combined creates a 4th universal constant. NOW HERE as an individual part of this universal moment.

Father Time is contracting results, Mother Nature is ever adding details never duplicated functioning the same way and the Holy Spirit is Genetic Coding that separates ancestry into individual lifetimes in the order they pass through this atmosphere creating visible self containment and self evident results that must be ignored for theory and theology to have power of suggestion over what real is all the time ancestors are educated to believe it isn't 4 ways, academics, politics, religion, and economics.

Hell of a Trinity when denied by every belief and faith words matter and substance is worth less than symbolic metaphors.

So as humanity invents ways to tip natural balance to favor one ideology over another, isn't that doing the same thing over and over expecting different results and also a sense of Eternal Hell surviving the Eternity of now?
Last edited by onemalehuman on 23 Nov 2013 00:27, edited 1 time in total.
#14333119
Potemkin wrote:Interestingly enough, Kepler believed that he had found cosmological analogues to the Holy Trinity. He believed that the Sun is God the Father, the sphere of the fixed stars is God the Son, and the void (or 'pneuma') connecting them is the Holy Spirit.

I've heard that Kepler was (literally) a sun-worshiper, so that makes sense.
#14333281
Excellent and thoughtful post, Paradigm. Previously I only thought of the trinty as three manifestations or aspects of God- Heavenly Father, God as son of man, and animus (and anima). Much like the Hindu gods are manifestations of Vishnu. But Holy Ghost as creative 'third' is very interesting. Do you know of any traditions which have intuited this? Gnosticism, mystery cult, perhaphs alchemy? Also, trying to come up with other trinities, I could only recall Hecate tri-formis. Hectate (new moon) as Selena (full moon) and Artemis (waxing, waning). Artemis is neither one nor the other but transformation.

Thoughts?
#14333507
Gnosticism was actually one of the counterveiling forces against the Trinity. They saw Christ as a fully cosmic being who only appeared to be human. The Trinity, by contrast, was needed to resolve the apparent paradox of someone who was both fully human and fully divine. The idea I'm expressing here is expressed by Cynthia Bouregault in her book The Law of Three. She, in turn, got the idea from G.I. Gurdjieff and his Fourth Way school of esotericism. However, she also sees an earlier precursor to this idea in the 17th century Lutheran theologian Jacob Boehme. Also, while not exactly putting it in Trinitarian terms, Teilhard de Chardin certainly intuited this theology of becoming.
#14335899
The Spirit testifies to the power of Jesus as Son of God, indeed it is through the Spirit that Jesus performed miracles. Jesus as Son of God and Son of Man is he who died upon the cross for our sins. God is Jesus at the same time, which is a paradox, yet in the end it was God who descended to Earth and lowered himself down and was stripped of all dignity. There is something beautiful about this concept if you think about it, and deeply radical.
#14336570
nucklepunche wrote:yet in the end it was God who descended to Earth and lowered himself down and was stripped of all dignity.
Stripped of all dignity? Really? Was Jesus arse raped? Was he forced to suck cock? I'm going by the conventional story here, regardless of whether he actually existed even. And what about sin? This is often people's greatest humiliation. The acts that they have done for which they are ashamed. But Jesus was supposedly sinless So he could be proud of every moment of his life. Not for him the humiliations suffered by our peodo Catholic Priests or the recent spate of entertainment celebrities in Britain who have been exposed for sexual crimes.
#14336622
paradigm wrote:But this is because Christians had long mistakenly understood the Trinity in terms of substance or "persons" when they should have been thinking in terms of process.


a) You(he or she) are talking about dehellenized non-Greek christians.
b) Neoplatonism is a 3-dimensional system comprised of the One, the Nous(Mind) and the Psyche(Soul).
c) Neoplatonism does not postulate categories of separate persons but emanations based on processes.


The confusion lies exactly opposite at what your author claims, as Pope Benedict put it:

Pope Benedict XVI proposes that a dehellenization of Christianity has stemmed from three different sources. The first stage of Christian dehellenization can be attributed to the Reformation in the sixteenth century. Reformers believed that faith had turned into a mere element in abstract philosophy, and that the religion needed to return to the idea of sola scriptura (scripture only).[14]
The second stage occurred in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries due to the theology of Adolf von Harnack. Harnack advocated focusing on the simple life of Jesus Christ, and his humanitarian message in particular. Theology and belief in a divine being, according to Harnack, was a scientific history completely separate from the modern reason of humanitarian aid.
The last stage, occurring currently in the twenty-first century, is a product of modern cultural pluralism. Cultural pluralism encourages other cultures to simply return to the simplicity of the New Testament, and refuse it with their own culture. The Pope affirms that such a method cannot work because the New Testament “was written in Greek and bears the imprint of the Greek spirit.”[15]


The duality and the vulgar expression of personages does not source either from the so-called perennial philosophy of the old sages or from Aristotelian substance or Platonic form or any actual philosophical system it sources from the vulgar simplicity of laymen and the limitations of their language as well as the obvious elephant in the room which is the oxymoron of Jesus' nature itself. Without the mystical philosophy of Plotinus to dress up the Trinity with fancy philosophical language the Trinity lays bare for grave questioning.
Last edited by noemon on 03 Dec 2013 00:00, edited 1 time in total.
#14336631
Rich wrote:Stripped of all dignity? Really? Was Jesus arse raped? Was he forced to suck cock? I'm going by the conventional story here, regardless of whether he actually existed even. And what about sin? This is often people's greatest humiliation. The acts that they have done for which they are ashamed. But Jesus was supposedly sinless So he could be proud of every moment of his life. Not for him the humiliations suffered by our peodo Catholic Priests or the recent spate of entertainment celebrities in Britain who have been exposed for sexual crimes.

It's good to know that you are capable of lowering the tone of almost every thread imaginable. According to the Gospel accounts, Jesus absolutely was stripped of all dignity. He was publicly flogged, beaten and mocked, before being subjected to one of the most brutal deaths imaginable. Again, going by the Gospel accounts, it's clearly apparent that Jesus felt the burden of His impending fate:

Matthew 26:36-46 wrote:36 Then cometh Jesus with them unto a place called Gethsemane, and saith unto the disciples, Sit ye here, while I go and pray yonder.

37 And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very heavy.

38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.

39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.


40 And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour?

41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.

43 And he came and found them asleep again: for their eyes were heavy.

44 And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words.

45 Then cometh he to his disciples, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.

46 Rise, let us be going: behold, he is at hand that doth betray me.


Now, do you have anything to contribute whatsoever, or will it be more juvenile rubbish about "arse rape"?
#14336728
Heisenberg wrote:It's good to know that you are capable of lowering the tone of almost every thread imaginable.
Oh so you find it offensive to think of Jesus in such a humiliating situation as being raped. You see St Paul might have centred on "Christ's humiliating death", but he is very much the exception. Christianity has focused on his suffering not his suffering. Watch Mel Gibson's Passion a classic if brutal portrayal of the Passion. Christ is not humiliated quite the contrary his dignity shines through ever brighter. Christ is raised up his crucifixion becomes a glorification. Even his doubt in Mark does not take away from the heroic nature of Christ's last hours but actually adds as any good story writer knows. A slightly more downbeat version of Crucifixion happens to Kirk Douglas in Spartacus. Again far from humiliating our hero the crucifixion only adds to the noble dignity of our hero.

Compare that with the scene in "Cool hand Luke" when Luke is broken. When a man begs his captors that's humiliation. When he begs for mercy. We don't know if Khalid Sheik Mohamad begged for mercy. We don't how many of the Al Qaida suspects were broken, were thoroughly humiliated.

But you see your reaction is just typical on the one hand Christians want to argue that Christ suffered the ultimate humiliation, but then get upset if people talk about Jesus in a disrespectful way.

Christians just seem blind to irony. We're talking about Jesus being tortured crucified and descending into hell and then people accuse me of lowering the tone. How can the tone be lowered. For centuries Christians have drooled on their enemies suffering unbearable torment for eternity and then they have the audacity to complain about people saying something with a sexual conitation. Jesus its like the guards at Auschwitz whining because someone swore at them.
#14336793
Rich wrote:Oh so you find it offensive to think of Jesus in such a humiliating situation as being raped.

Not particularly. I find it tedious, more than "offensive". I'm interested that you appear to think you've said something shocking or daring, though.

Rich wrote:You see St Paul might have centred on "Christ's humiliating death", but he is very much the exception.

Since St Paul pretty much founded Christianity as we know it, he's a pretty important "exception".

Rich wrote:Christianity has focused on his suffering not his suffering.

This quite literally means nothing.

As for the rest of your post, regarding Christ's dignity shining through in the Crucifixion, that's entirely the point of the story. I don't know what point you think you're making.

Rich wrote:But you see your reaction is just typical on the one hand Christians want to argue that Christ suffered the ultimate humiliation, but then get upset if people talk about Jesus in a disrespectful way.

I'm not a Christian. It's just a pet peeve of mine watching barely-literate jeering presented as some kind of brave protest against religious tyranny.
#14336817
Matthew 26:36-46 wrote:36 Then cometh Jesus with them unto a place called Gethsemane, and saith unto the disciples, Sit ye here, while I go and pray yonder.

37 And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very heavy.

38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.

39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.


40 And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour?

41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.

43 And he came and found them asleep again: for their eyes were heavy.

44 And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words.

45 Then cometh he to his disciples, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.

46 Rise, let us be going: behold, he is at hand that doth betray me.


Errr...not that real "believers" will admit to this but...have any of you ever heard of the "Pseudonymity" of the Bible?
#14336831
Rich wrote:Oh so you find it offensive to think of Jesus in such a humiliating situation as being raped.
Heisenberg wrote:Not particularly. I find it tedious, more than "offensive". I'm interested that you appear to think you've said something shocking or daring, though.
Why are you so interested in me. I thought this thread was about Chritianity.


Rich wrote:You see St Paul might have centred on "Christ's humiliating death", but he is very much the exception.
Heisenberg wrote:Since St Paul pretty much founded Christianity as we know it, he's a pretty important "exception".
Of course he's an important, but whether his Theology is in harmony with the Gospel writers is I think rather central to the question.


Rich wrote:Christianity has focused on his suffering not his suffering.
Heisenberg wrote:This quite literally means nothing.
It may mean nothing to you, but I can assure you that many have died over the centuries for far smaller differences of opinion.


Heisenberg wrote:I'm not a Christian. It's just a pet peeve of mine watching barely-literate jeering presented as some kind of brave protest against religious tyranny.
So you've chosen to grace the debate by engaging in cheap insults. In what areas do you find my literacy lacking: grammar, vocabulary, punctuation?


Heisenberg wrote:As for the rest of your post, regarding Christ's dignity shining through in the Crucifixion, that's entirely the point of the story. I don't know what point you think you're making. :eh:
No maybe that's because you're the one lacking literacy in this subject area. Would you even know what the Synoptics, Q and the ending of Mark controversy were without looking them up on the internet? Could you distinguish between Romans, Galatians and the Pastorals? Could you say anything about the relation of John ('s gospel) to Doceticism? Hell do you even know what Doceticism is?
#14337146
Rich wrote:No maybe that's because you're the one lacking literacy in this subject area.

Cute.

The Synoptic Gospels are Mark, Matthew and Luke. Q is the hypothetical document that they were based on. The ending of Mark controversy refers to the second half of Mark 16, which is believed to have been added by a later author. Docetism was the Gnostic belief that Jesus only appeared to be human. Galatians, Romans and the Pastorals are some of Paul's Epistles. I have no idea what any of this is supposed to prove.

@FiveofSwords Doesn't this 'ethnogenesis' mala[…]

Britain: Deliberately imports laborers from around[…]

There's nothing more progressive than supporting b[…]

A man from Oklahoma (United States) who travelled […]