[abu_rashid]

It's an interesting thread, because you told how you converted youself from atheist to Muslim of your accord.

I never stated any such thing.

#1 Could you please tell me how you could accept the concept of Allah, which is almighty at the first place without witnessing HIM? Lisewise, if I or anyone tell you the existence of E.T. you will demand the proofs. Some classic religious books cannot serve as proofs at all.

I believe all humans have an innate inclination to sanctify and worship. Religion is an aspect of human civilisation that has spring up everywhere, in every isolated corner of the world, humans always had religion. It's also very logical that if a complex and extremely well designed result exists, then it must have been designed by a higher intelligence. I honestly find it laughable that anyone could believe that this reality we exist in, and we ourselves just spontaneously arose out of nothing, with no cause. If anyone would believe "anything", I'd say it'd be your camp.

#2 Since Allah exists, why is HE unwilling to make Muslim world stronger? Numerous wars broke out between Muslim and non-Muslim, but Allah seems to turn a deaf ear to the calling of his believers?

Human civilisations rise and fall, who ever claimed Muslims have to always be the dominant force in the world? Where was that a pre-requisite for the existence of a creator? The Islamic texts clearly state we will rise and fall in fact. As pathetic as the "E.T" question was, this one has out done it.

[annatar1914]

I believe all humans have an innate inclination to sanctify and worship. Religion is an aspect of human civilisation that has spring up everywhere, in every isolated corner of the world, humans always had religion. It's also very logical that if a complex and extremely well designed result exists, then it must have been designed by a higher intelligence. I honestly find it laughable that anyone could believe that this reality we exist in, and we ourselves just spontaneously arose out of nothing, with no cause. If anyone would believe "anything", I'd say it'd be your camp.

Well said. I don't have enough mystical faith and suspension of reason to be an Atheist, at least anymore.

[cheers100]

Having grown up in a very secular, almost atheist household, I felt from a very young age that there had to be more to life than just mundane routine.

Throughout my teenage years, like most people in Western societies, religion wasn't even on my radar at all. It was simply an institution that would spoil my fun and restrict my lifestyle.

I'm sorry if I misintrepreted your words, and assumed you were an atheist at your tender age. Then what would you call yourself before you believe in Islam?

Now do your family including your parents, siblings, relatives, all convert to Islam too?

I believe all humans have an innate inclination to sanctify and worship.

My family and I don't worship and sanctify any deities. How do you believe all humans have such an innate inclination? I am not convinced you would know better than I do myself and my family.

It's also very logical that if a complex and extremely well designed result exists, then it must have been designed by a higher intelligence.

Science requires proofs instead of simply logics. Lisewise, a suspect is hardly to condemn as a criminal without convinced evidence.

Even if I concede to there might be a higher intelligence, what made you convince yourself it is "Allah" instead of other dieties like God, etc.

Why don't Allah or other deities just show up? So the contentions, violences, wars which are caused by different faiths would be ended permanently, instead of taking a heavy toll on human lives.

Human civilisations rise and fall, who ever claimed Muslims have to always be the dominant force in the world? Where was that a pre-requisite for the existence of a creator? The Islamic texts clearly state we will rise and fall in fact.

Allah is supposed to the creator who is the omnipotent, ominpresent. May I venture to assume the fall of Muslim countries would be under the hest of Allah according to logic you prefer using? Why does it happen? Why doesn't Allah give Islamic countries a hand instead of seeing them falled?

I don't know when Muslim countries once dominate the world. Could you please give me some examples?

Do you think pious prays to Allah or any deities work if people are in distress like being killed, being raped, etc.? Does Allah hear that?

Do you agree what Qur'an states if a woman commits adultery, she should be stoned to death?

Since Adam was the father to humans, why are there different blood types?

What do you think of the slaves stated in Quran? Is it allowed to make other people slaves?

P.S. I don't pick up a fight with you, but would like to know your thoughts.

[abu_rashid]

Having grown up in a very secular, almost atheist household, I felt from a very young age that there had to be more to life than just mundane routine.

Throughout my teenage years, like most people in Western societies, religion wasn't even on my radar at all. It was simply an institution that would spoil my fun and restrict my lifestyle.

I'm sorry if I misintrepreted your words, and assumed you were an atheist at your tender age. Then what would you call yourself before you believe in Islam?

No need to be sorry, but nowhere do either of those quotes state I was an atheist. I would've described myself as officially agnostic, but I knew deep down that there was a supreme being, responsible for our existence.

Now do your family including your parents, siblings, relatives, all convert to Islam too?

Nope, just me.

My family and I don't worship and sanctify any deities. How do you believe all humans have such an innate inclination? I am not convinced you would know better than I do myself and my family.

Modern Western atheism arose as a reactionary response to religion. It then spread to other societies with colonialist expansion of the Western maritime powers. Even the word atheism itself betrays this fact, as it is literally just a negation of theism (belief in a deity).

Even if I concede to there might be a higher intelligence, what made you convince yourself it is "Allah" instead of other dieties like God, etc.

What's the difference? They're just two different languages' words for the same concept. Allah literally just means "the deity" in Arabic. God has the same meaning today in English after being equated with the Hebrew word Elohim, which is of course cognate with Allah.

Why don't Allah or other deities just show up? So the contentions, violences, wars which are caused by different faiths would be ended permanently, instead of taking a heavy toll on human lives.

Firstly, you seem to be operating under the assumption the deity is a part of this existence. The deity must be external to this existence, the creator is beyond the creation, not a part of it. The deity is beyond space/time, so "showing up" doesn't make sense. However, sending representatives (prophets) does.

Secondly, I don't know about other religions, but Islam teaches this life, and all its trials, tribulations and vicissitudes are the reason we're here. The test is the very purpose for our existence, so to negate the test is to negate our very purpose for existing.

Allah is supposed to the creator who is the omnipotent, ominpresent. May I venture to assume the fall of Muslim countries would be under the hest of Allah according to logic you prefer using? Why does it happen? Why doesn't Allah give Islamic countries a hand instead of seeing them falled?

See above.

I don't know when Muslim countries once dominate the world. Could you please give me some examples?

From pretty much the arrival of Islam onto the international scene in the 7th. century, right up until the early 20th. century, did you miss out 1300~ years of history??? Within 80 years of Muhammad's death, the state he established had reached the Iberian peninsula in the west and the borders of India in the east.

Do you think pious prays to Allah or any deities work if people are in distress like being killed, being raped, etc.? Does Allah hear that?

The prayer of the one who commits major sins (murder, rape etc) is of course not accepted. Also Allah says there is nothing between him and the supplications of the oppressed against their oppressors.

But I think you'd need to really unpack what you're referring to there. For instance a Muslim who kills, defending himself and his family and his land against invading occupation forces is a hero, and incurs no sin for such actions whatsoever, only abundant rewards. So if that's the kind of thing you're talking about, then such a person has nothing to worry about in the afterlife, and I'm sure Allah does indeed answer his prayers.

Do you agree what Qur'an states if a woman commits adultery, she should be stoned to death?

Woman? Why woman? Adultery is a two person crime, both the criminals are indeed liable to capital punishment under Islamic law. I'd like to ask you to have a long, hard think about why you asked that question in such a loaded fashion. And even more reflection should probably be cast upon if you were even conscious you were doing that? Or is it something you've just been programmed to do... if so, doesn't that concern you in the least?

Since Adam was the father to humans, why are there different blood types?

Evolutionary theory claims we all come from the same common ancestors anyway, so you're no more able to explain that than I am.

What do you think of the slaves stated in Quran? Is it allowed to make other people slaves?

First tell me what you think the Qur'an states about slaves.

P.S. I don't pick up a fight with you, but would like to know your thoughts.

You're welcome.

[cheers100]

I will have to edit completely what I wrote, after I read again some teachings of Qur'an, which made me recoiled.

I hope you can successfully convert your family to Islam in the first place. Charity begins at home.

P.S. I'm not an adulter, and won't commit that, but the capital punishment of stoning is very horrible and unhuman.

[Godstud]

They never promote to killing, not even hurt a fly.

That's changing, in the face of "the religion of peace", Islam.

Even though they form a majority in both countries, many Buddhists share a sense that their nations must be unified and that their religion is under threat.

The global climate is crucial. People believe radical Islam to be at the centre of the many of the most violent conflicts around the world. They feel they are at the receiving end of conversion drives by the much more evangelical monotheistic faiths. And they feel that if other religions are going to get tough, they had better follow suit.
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-22356306


I applaud this.

[cheers100]

Godstud, sorry, I didn't know you have read my post before I entirely edited my previous post, because I feel very uncomfortable, and I don't want to talk about Islam in this thread any more, which throws me from light to darkness.


P.S. And excuse me, I wouldn't like to talk to posters like you who put words into my mouth. You accused me of the words I never said in another thread even after I cleared the air. That made me lost my interest to discuss with you any more. I don't intend to offend you about this, but just let you know my stand. I prefer we cut our own fodder each. Goodbye.

[abu_rashid]

I will have to edit completely what I wrote, after I read again some teachings of Qur'an, which made me recoiled.

Could it be you've not actually read the Qur'an, but some nonsense commentary from an anti-Islamic website? I find it very hard to believe any normal human being would "recoil" from reading anything that's authentically in the Qur'an.

I hope you can successfully convert your family to Islam in the first place. Charity begins at home.

In Islam we don't really believe in "converting" people. We believe in providing a good example to them in our own lives, and then God does the converting.

P.S. I'm not an adulter, and won't commit that,

Good to see.

but the capital punishment of stoning is very horrible and unhuman.

Are you a Bible-believer? If so, do you consider all those OT figures unhuman for implementing this law as well?

[cheers100]

#1 I read some translated version of Qur'an, but not the original version in Arabic. Just now I reread it again in order to discuss with you, but the more I read, the more repugnant I felt, so I have to quit. (I honestly tell you my feeling instead of intentionally trying to offend you, thus I decided to remove a chunk of text I've wrote.)

#2 Do you forget I've told you I'm basically an atheist? At least I don't believe either God or Allah. You argued about God and Allah is one and same but to me they are different. Protestants believe Trinity of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, if I don't misunderstood.

#3 I don't like Christianity either, at least some of its teaching promote tolerance, i.e.

But I tell you not to resist an evildoer. On the contrary, whoever slaps you on the right cheek, turn the other to him as well.

And murder is prohibited accordng to Ten Commandments.

Well, I didn't say Chrisitanity is all about tolerance. The Bible records violence too.

However in my eyes Islam is an extremely intolerant religion in the teachings I have read and the facts I knew i.e. stoning women against human rights, banning women to go out alone, allowing men to get married four wives, issuing Fatwa of assassination against Indian-British writer Salman Rushdie , and killed other people who translated that book of his all worldwide. I don't try to defend Rushdie about his book, but it is horrible to kill them. If his book is blasphemous, but if you really read Qur'an which condemns non-believers will go to hell, that sounds very offensive to me too. It is okay you harbor your faith, but Muslims as well as other believers have not right to curse other non-believers. Besides that, I knew some couples who fell in love, and had to break off because one of them is not Muslim. Love is the most precious emotion in the world but it is sad that it falls victim to the religion. This is against human rights.

#4 I think it would be ridiculous for you to talk about it if your family don't believe it. The priority is that you help them out according to your faith, before you're able to convince non-believers about Allah.

I might not be able to go any further to discuss about it any more. It makes me very unconfortable all of a sudden. I don't intentionally disrespect or offend you if my posts appear to. At least I did try to write down rationally as I consider we need to sincerely exchange our views instead of fighting which cannot change the reality, but meanwhile I realise I am just a nobody as religions have been a bone of contention among people since they were established. I am happy with my life without God or Allah, and I am happy for you with your Allah if you're happy. All I wish is not to resort to violences either physical or verbal. That's all!

[abu_rashid]

#1 I read some translated version of Qur'an, but not the original version in Arabic. Just now I reread it again in order to discuss with you, but the more I read, the more repugnant I felt, so I have to quit. (I honestly tell you my feeling instead of intentionally trying to offend you, thus I decided to remove a chunk of text I've wrote.)

Your choice, but seems to me you're just trying to withdraw, because you know full well you've got nothing. The Qur'an has nothing like the rampant violence of the Bible for instance, so if you had no problem reading the Bible, then you'd find the Qur'an a real breath of fresh air. In fact if there's any violence mentioned in the Qur'an, it's probably just a re-affirmation of a story from the Bible.

#2 Do you forget I've told you I'm basically an atheist? At least I don't believe either God or Allah. You argued about God and Allah is one and same but to me they are different. Protestants believe Trinity of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, if I don't misunderstood.

The God of the Bible is the same as the Qur'an, if Christians have warped it to become a trinity, that's their strange deviation. The Jews certainly have no concept of a trinity.

#3 I don't like Christianity either, at least some of its teaching promote tolerance, i.e.

If they believe in the Bible, then it most certainly does. In fact the Bible has more violence in it than any other book I've ever read. And the most horrific of violence.

But I tell you not to resist an evildoer. On the contrary, whoever slaps you on the right cheek, turn the other to him as well.
And murder is prohibited accordng to Ten Commandments.

Those are pretty selective quotes. How about where God supposedly commands Moses (pbuh) to commit genocide against men, women, children, infants, elderly? Or where it commands executing a child who speaks disrespectfully to his parents? Seems to me you just cherry pick stuff from religious texts, both Bible and Qur'an, to suit your agenda.

Well, I didn't say Chrisitanity is all about tolerance. The Bible records violence too.

That's an understatement.

However in my eyes Islam is an extremely intolerant religion in the teachings I have read and the facts I knew i.e. stoning women against human rights...

So you keep saying, yet you consistently claim you can't even bring yourself to mention the passages. Seems to me you're having a lend of us.

Bible commands stoning of adulterers, I don't seem to see the same kind of shock and horror from you over that.

banning women to go out alone...

Did you know that according to the Bible, if a woman goes out alone, and is raped, she is to be executed for it? Unless she is out in the field, and nobody could hear her screams, in that case the rapist just has to pay a few shekels to her father, and marry her. Are you seriously going to tell me you found anything remotely like this in the Qur'an??

allowing men to get married four wives...

As opposed to previous religions which put no limit. The Bible records some people with wives in the hundreds.

issuing Fatwa of assassination against Indian-British writer Salman Rushdie..

Bible also demands death penalty for blasphemers.

Besides that, I knew some couples who fell in love, and had to break off because one of them is not Muslim.

Well Islam does permit marriage with non-Muslims in some cases.

#4 I think it would be ridiculous for you to talk about it if your family don't believe it. The priority is that you help them out according to your faith, before you're able to convince non-believers about Allah.

Even Muhammad's (pbuh) closest relative, who raised him from a young age and protected him throughout most of his message, never accepted Islam... As I said, we believe God is the one who converts people, not you or me.

I might not be able to go any further to discuss about it any more. It makes me very unconfortable all of a sudden.

As I said your choice, but it seems to me you're just trying to avoid actually bringing anything against Islam, because you know full well you've got nothing.

I am happy with my life without God or Allah, and I am happy for you with your Allah if you're happy.

Are you really?

[Godstud]

P.S. And excuse me, I wouldn't like to talk to posters like you who put words into my mouth. You accused me of the words I never said in another thread even after I cleared the air. That made me lost my interest to discuss with you any more. I don't intend to offend you about this, but just let you know my stand. I prefer we cut our own fodder each. Goodbye.

I can't put words in your mouth, and I quoted YOUR words.

I can understand why you don't like discussing anything with someone who can dissemble your arguments.

[cheers100]

Are you really?

If you do expect my answers. Yes, I am.

#1. I'm happy with my serene life without the inventation of any deity. So are my family. In my eyes, some religions are just tools of which are made use by a tiny ruling ringheads to control, brainwash the majority of people's mind and launch wars, asking people to die for the so-called deities each... How many Muslims and Hindus were there who have died of killing each other because of their deities, their vendettas. So were Christian Crusades. Instead of lenience, understanding, tolerance, those religious people are keen to fan hatred among/between peoples, resort to violences like killing, bombing, etc. I am happy with my life, and I am happy I am not going to be a victim of any religions. I don't want to kill any people just out of different religious views, races, etc.

#2 I'm happy for you if you don't resort to violence either. I hope you are a peaceful person. I notice you always say PEACE BE UPON HIM whenever you refer to any Muslim prophets. If you habor peace to anyone instead of just Muslim prophets only as well as other people including me, the world will be really much better. As I have said, the reason that I loathe religions is those make people died, teach hatred... I'm for peace, humanitarian love, etc. We just disagree with the views about Islam, and you don't hurt me. It is normal that people harbor different perspectives of the world.

#3 Please don't bother asking me. According to Qur'an, Allah tell you all if you indeed believe in HIM.

Goodbye! I'm not going to read this thread any more.