My journey to Christian Communism; reflections - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14557893
I'm starting this thread to document my journey, due to my conversion to Orthodox Christianity, my equal conversion to Christian Communism by way of theological and Scriptural reflection and prayer. Those who are already Communists may take solace in what I have found perhaps, if they're open to it. And those who are Christian might likewise find something here to revive an Ancient Faith, and Eternal Love, which drives away the wicked spirit of egotism and riches.

My hope is that when looking on this, one might say; 'yes, true Christianity is Communist', and follow up from there. As it is late, I shall resume this later, so please allow me to lay out what I intend to show or prove when I am finished. Then, I truly invite discussion afterwards
#14558324
I guess you guys didn't get the part about my asking people to not comment until I've laid things out first. And, I certainly don't like your general attitude towards me anyway 'conscript', so kindly just leave, as you have nothing constructive to add, as you are incorrect to begin with. From the Early Church Fathers of Orthodoxy to Father Gapon and beyond, you are most incorrect. A few words from the Orthodox Fathers of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church;


You are not making a gift of your possession to the poor person. You are handing over to him what is his.
Ambrose of Milan, 340-397.

The property of the wealthy holds them in chains . . . which shackle their courage and choke their faith and hamper their judgment and throttle their souls. They think of themselves as owners, whereas it is they rather who are owned: enslaved as they are to their own property, they are not the masters of their money but its slaves.
Cyprian, 300 A.D.

The bread in your cupboard belongs to the hungry man; the coat hanging in your closet belongs to the man who needs it; the shoes rotting in your closet belong to the man who has no shoes; the money which you put into the bank belongs to the poor. You do wrong to everyone you could help but fail to help.
Basil of Caesarea, 330-370 A.D.

Not to enable the poor to share in our goods is to steal from them and deprive them of life. The goods we possess are not ours but theirs.

John Chrysostom, 347-407 AD

Instead of the tithes which the law commanded, the Lord said to divide everything we have with the poor. And he said to love not only our neighbors but also our enemies, and to be givers and sharers not only with the good but also to be liberal givers toward those who take away our possessions.

Irenaeus, 130-200 AD

The rich are in possession of the goods of the poor, even if they have acquired them honestly or inherited them legally.
John Chrysostom, 347-407

Share everything with your brother. Do not say, “It is private property.” If you share what is everlasting, you should be that much more willing to share things which do not last.
The Didache

Let the strong take care of the weak; let the weak respect the strong. Let the rich man minister to the poor man; let the poor man give thanks to God that he gave him one through whom his need might be satisfied.
Clement of Rome, 1st Century

Christians love one another. They do not overlook the widow, and they save the orphan. The one who has ministers ungrudgingly to the one who does not have. When they see a stranger, they take him under their own roof and rejoice over him as a true brother, for they do not call themselves brothers according to the flesh but according to the soul.
Aristides, early 2nd century

How can I make you realize the misery of the poor? How can I make you understand that your wealth comes from their weeping?
Basil of Caesarea, 330-370 A.D.

When you are weary of praying and do not receive, consider how often you have heard a poor man calling, and have not listened to him.
John Chrysostom, 347-407
#14558332
That you haven't laid things out yet is exactly why I'm here. I'm being constructive insofar I'm pointing you in the right direction. Listen to my case:

The simple fact is this. Communism isn't a refuge for illiberal reactionaries, let alone a religious conservative and monarchist, no matter what weird shit is being combined in post-Soviet Russia. You seem to be turned off by the vapid capitalism of the liberals and essentially the modernity of the far-right, and are looking to the third camp.

The problem is you are not even a left-wing nationalist nor someone in the vein of Pope Francis, you are just plain reactionary even by the standards of the liberal political center (meaning you would be the target of Jacobins, let alone reds). Some sort of weird religious 'anti-capitalism' is not unusual (look at Iran after all), but lets not fool ourselves with a red aesthetic (because that's all it is) draped over hating modernity, secularism, and republicanism.

Just go full White Russian. The only reason it seems you aren't doing so is because the USSR has greater political capital. But sorry, it's not your political tradition to appropriate, thus my presence.

If you insist on doing so, you only tarnish both of us. You have more in common with an Iranian Mullah than you ever will with even Brezhnev or Stalin, let alone communists today (who are far to the left of those two). I suggest you decide what's worth keeping and what's not about your political views, and either become some sort of left nationalist, a progressive Christian (think liberation theology, or Pope Francis), or just White Russian as mentioned.

For the record, I am Slavic, baptized as Orthodox, and a Marxist.
#14558340
The simple fact is this. Communism isn't a refuge for illiberal reactionaries


Good thing that i'm looking for Truth and not 'a refuge for illiberal reactionaries'

, let alone a religious conservative and monarchist, no matter what weird shit is being combined in post-Soviet Russia.


If something is living and vital, even if it exists seemingly as a paradoxical melange of ideas, than it can work towards a better future for all.
You are not even a left-wing nationalist nor someone in the vein of Pope Francis, you are just plain reactionary even by the standards of the liberal political center (meaning you would be the target of Jacobins, let alone reds).


I don't think so, but even if I were, so what? As long as i'm right, i'd rather be almost alone with truth than among many with falsehood.

Some sort of weird religious 'anti-capitalism' is not unusual, but lets not fool ourselves with a red aesthetic (because that's all it is)


Oh, I see what you think this is now; you automatically assumed that. So simply because I agree with the analysis of Marxism-Leninism it does not follow I support their tactics or strategy. And it's not 'weird' if it goes to the authenticity of the Christian Spirit. Christian Communism is what it is, and a Secular Communist party is what it is also. I'm in the Spirit of folks like Father Pavel Florensky.

draped over hating modernity, secularism, and republicanism.


No, it's just part of the overall Christian critique of the Kairos, the Spirit of the Time, in which we live in. An authentic Orthodox Christian true to that prophetic vocation by virtue of their baptism and chrismation, will critique the 'structures of evil' and 'wickedness in high places' which exist in their time.

Just go full White Russian. The only reason it seems you aren't doing so is because the USSR has greater political capital. But sorry, it's not your political tradition to appropriate, thus my presence.


I'm not appropriating a political tradition, but coming into a spiritual one, as I wrote above.

If you insist on doing so, you only tarnish both of us. You have more in common with an Iranian Mullah than you ever will with even Brezhnev or Stalin, let alone communists today (who are far to the left of those two).


Hardly, the Iranian Mullahs are as Capitalist Bizaari as you can get. And modern 'Communists' have lost their way. There is a reason i'm posting this in 'Spirituality', after all.


I suggest you decide what's worth keeping and what's not about your political views, and either become some sort of left nationalist (e.g. Comrade Tim), a progressive Christian (think liberation theology, or Pope Francis), or just White Russian as mentioned (think Putin).



How about what I am, a 'Christian Communist'? If I happen to agree with the Marxists, albeit arriving at their conclusions in a differing manner it should be enough for anyone.... It seems 'Christian Communism' scares everyone to death, like Kryptonite to Superman. Dostyovsky thought as much too.


For the record, I am Slavic, baptized as Orthodox, and a Marxist.


For the record, I am part Slavic, baptized as Orthodox and remain as one, and agree with Marxists. If I reject anything, it is the idea that Atheism is integral to Communism, or Marxism, for that matter.

Look, I'm more interested in the Orthodox Christian Truth. It has led me to reject Racism, reject Slavery in all it's forms, reject Aristocracy, reject Capitalism, and much besides. I may even in the course of things reject Monarchy as Antichrist too, just like the Orthodox 'Old Believers' do. And Orthodoxy has caused me to embrace Communism in the heart of the most Capitalist country in the world. I'm going to lay out those steps, for myself if nothing else, that led me to this point.

I don't need a secular red aesthetic, hammers and sickles and the like. That's fine for Seculars I guess. I've got the Cross and Icons and the Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition that made me the Christian Communist Orthodox Christian that I am. I am what I am, and nothing else more or less. I'm not here for a popularity contest.

I'm not ashamed of anything, except my earlier beliefs when I happened to be wrong. I didn't write any of this for you, 'Conscript', I write it for me, to have courage and humility and strength in the face of scorn and laughter.
#14558703
Once I started reading or re-reading the Early Church Fathers in Orthodoxy; and uncovered gems such as I mentioned earlier, I knew I had to look back at the Scriptures from which they themselves received their light. What does the Orthodox Christian God think of Money, and Rich people, and Poor people, and the Christian Society that Orthodox Christians should be working for?

I resisted. Oh how I resisted in my Paganism, for though I had the name of 'Christian' before, I recoiled at the idea that I could have such Communist ideas in my mind. Was I being deceived? Or had the results of my Conversion bore righteous fruit, in desire to see the Kingdom of God on Earth, His Will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven, and to end the misery of the Poor?

I considered all these verses in turn;

Mark 10:25New International Version (NIV)

25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”


In other words, impossible, that's the clear meaning. Or this;

Luke 6:24 New International Version (NIV)

20 Looking at his disciples, he said:


24
“But woe to you who are rich,
for you have already received your comfort.


Or this prophesy of Christ;

Isaiah 53:9New International Version (NIV)

9
He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.


The Wicked and the Rich seem to overlap, if not be synonymous;


Psalm 37:14-16New International Version (NIV)

14
The wicked draw the sword
and bend the bow
to bring down the poor and needy,
to slay those whose ways are upright.
15
But their swords will pierce their own hearts,
and their bows will be broken.

16
Better the little that the righteous have
than the wealth of many wicked;


And I hadn't even reached to the book of Acts yet, and there it stared at me plainly, just as this did;


Matthew 19:16-24New International Version (NIV)
The Rich and the Kingdom of God

16 Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”

17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”

18 “Which ones?” he inquired.

Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,’[a] and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’[b]”

20 “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”

21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”



Was it a personal thing, a voluntary thing? After all, Orthodoxy is full of voluntary Communists, called Monks. Surely there was more to this. And there was and is, the subject of my next post-is it all mandatory and necessary at some stage?
#14558975
Yes the Christians written about in Acts turned their backs on possessions and on greed in all it's forms and embraced communal property and promoted charity...but they also turned their backs on society at large and on all their instructions, especially on politics...

edit: "instructions" should read institutions...
Last edited by Nattering Nabob on 21 May 2015 01:40, edited 1 time in total.
#14558981
Yes the Christians written about in Acts turned their backs on possessions and on greed in all it's forms and embraced communal property and promoted charity...but they also turned their backs on society at large and on all their instructions, especially on politics...

In other words, they were a communistic millennial cult.
#14559003
Potemkin wrote:In other words, they were a communistic millennial cult.


I would not go so far as to say that, as I plan on illustrating, the Church acts as a 'leaven in the dough', a spiritually progressive upwards trend in those enlightened by grace, to transform society and act upon it, destroying the works of the Devil.

It takes a change in the individual and collective conciousness, and people rarely are 'at' a place where they can instantly transform into Saints, the Elect of God.

To illustrate this, ill be working from the book of Acts to show what I mean, as part of my own working loose of the contradictions of being a totally committed Orthodox Christian.... And thus Communist among other things, in the modern capitalist world.
#14559006
In other words, they were a communistic millennial cult.


Or a prototypical monastery...

Today, monks still turn away from possessions and greed and embrace charity and spurn politics and courts and such...

And not only Christian monks, the same can be said of Buddhist and Hindu renunciants...it's what monks do...

In some monasteries it is forbidden to refer to "my pen" but everything is referred to as "our pen", "our slippers", "our bed", etc.
#14559278
Nattering Nabob wrote:Yes the Christians written about in Acts turned their backs on possessions and on greed in all it's forms and embraced communal property and promoted charity
Acts is an utterly untrustworthy document. This communism is not mentioned in Paul's letters. What is weird is the collections for the so called poor of Jerusalem. Why the poor of Jerusalem should have to be supported by the rest of the empire is never explained. Jerusalem had long operated as a vast extortion racket. It seems that continued in early Christianity. There is no reason to believe the early Christian church was any less corrupt than modern Scientology when it came to the cynical exploitation of the gullible, sorry I mean faithful.
.
#14559480
Rich wrote:Acts is an utterly untrustworthy document. This communism is not mentioned in Paul's letters. What is weird is the collections for the so called poor of Jerusalem. Why the poor of Jerusalem should have to be supported by the rest of the empire is never explained. Jerusalem had long operated as a vast extortion racket. It seems that continued in early Christianity. There is no reason to believe the early Christian church was any less corrupt than modern Scientology when it came to the cynical exploitation of the gullible, sorry I mean faithful.


Thank you for that well reasoned and relevant post...

I'm going to go somewhere and digest it...
#14559762
Rich wrote:Acts is an utterly untrustworthy document. This communism is not mentioned in Paul's letters. What is weird is the collections for the so called poor of Jerusalem. Why the poor of Jerusalem should have to be supported by the rest of the empire is never explained. Jerusalem had long operated as a vast extortion racket. It seems that continued in early Christianity. There is no reason to believe the early Christian church was any less corrupt than modern Scientology when it came to the cynical exploitation of the gullible, sorry I mean faithful.
.


Your Anti-Christianity is duly noted, and well known, yet you persist in insinuating yourself into what is clearly no concern of yours. I asked nicely that people refrain from commentary while I laid out my account, but that courtesy has been violated from the start. It's clear where your biases lay, and only your anti-monotheism seems to endear you to the Atheist Left who otherwise despise you.

Then I realized the vanity of my project, wanting to tell something to others when I should have rightly expected mockery and incomprehension. Atheist 'Left' (which is nothing more now than bourgeosie 'Identity Politics' and degeneracy advocacy) and the truly godless Atheist Right (which has degenerated to advocacy of unrestrained Capitalism and Imperialism), unite in mutual fear of Christian Communism, the outworkings of a society evolving towards the Orthodox Christian ideal.

I'm done with 'announcing' things, i'm just going to live them to the best of my ability and by the grace of God.
#14560007
Potemkin wrote:"Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you."


Indeed, Potemkin, indeed.

I guess I just wanted to 'shout it out' to those here that I can say I hold in high regard, that age and the pollution of the Modern Age haven't blunted my idealism for a Christian revival in which the Communism of the Orthodox Church becomes more general, as I say, the 'Leaven in the dough'.

I'm older, but dammit, I still believe that human nature can be changed by God's Grace, so that 'all may have everything in common'.
#14560025
I'm older, but dammit, I still believe that human nature can be changed by God's Grace, so that 'all may have everything in common'.

Indeed, annatar. And how can a congregation of believers be in any meaningful communion with one another if some have more material possessions than they can use while others of their congregation have no food to eat, or shoes to wear, or place to sleep? Christianity without sharing all material goods in common is a fraud and a sham.
#14560049
annatar1914 wrote:Then I realized the vanity of my project, wanting to tell something to others when I should have rightly expected mockery and incomprehension. Atheist 'Left' (which is nothing more now than bourgeosie 'Identity Politics' and degeneracy advocacy) and the truly godless Atheist Right (which has degenerated to advocacy of unrestrained Capitalism and Imperialism), unite in mutual fear of Christian Communism, the outworkings of a society evolving towards the Orthodox Christian ideal..

I don't think either the atheist left or right (as you call them) fears Christian Communism. The left are glorying in the fact they have much more political influence than anything Christian by getting totemic yet perfectly pointless legislation such as the "gay marriage" thing passed all across the west purely to rub Christian noses in the fact they don't rule any more. The right cynically uses Christian conservatives for extra support but otherwise cares nothing for them. Neither is aware that there is such a thing as Christian communism because outside of the monasteries there isn't any such thing and the monasteries, precisely because they separate themselves from the world, just don't matter a bit anyway. Definitely there is no fear. How can anyone fear a Christian? It's been a long time since any of them went around burning alive heretics. What is the worse they can do? Turn the other cheek and get down on their knees like a slave and pray that jesus will save them? Ooh how scary.
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