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By anasawad
#14677573
In the matter of the universe and where did it come from. Both Theists and Atheists though have different explanations for it, but both do agree that it came from something external.
Whether it was god, or the physical forces that as theorized can create something out of nothing, or whatever is it some believes. Its all in the end something external and predates the universe.
And over the history explanations have varied by numerous degrees to where did the universe come from. But the main principle is that some thing or some one must have created it.
Now here there is a little philosophical common subject that comes to mind, which is in all the explanations given.
There is always that need to know something is out there with us. And that, that something is empowering us.
I mean take a deep thought about it. If the explanation was God, then it empowers us knowing the god is with us and to protect us. If it was physical forces, It is that those forces will keep balance and keep everything going,
and that we can use them to empower ourselves.
And all other explanations there is always that need to look for something greater than us and that this thing will empower us and save us.

Now, 'm going to give a few questions hoping to start a debate so it reaches a few certain points i want.

For a start, why is it that we have that need in us and how did it develop ?

On a more personal side.
What do you believe it is that created the universe and why ? how did you reach that conclusion and why do you think you did reach it specifically than all the others given by many in the world today ?

On a philosophical view.
If you're a theist.
Why do you think god created the universe ? and what do you think is going to come after in the material world ?

If you're an Atheist.
What do you think is the purpose of this universe and why does it exist ?


And for both, what do you think the purpose of our own existence is ? and why ?



Note: please no one goes into the type of debates where the posts are 'm right because 'm right and you're wrong because you're wrong.
There are like 5 other threads like that, if you want to do so go there.
#14677620
As an atheist...

a) "Something" is more natural than "nothing". In quantum physics, pairs of particles and antiparticles spontaneously appear from nothing in the void, then disappear (most of the time). So when you ask "why is there an universe" I answer "why should there be nothing".

b) There was no "before" and no cause. It is important to understand that in physics the start of the universe is the start of time. At some point there was something and before there was no before, no time and no nothing. And without time there is no causality, so there is no cause either. It is because it is.

c) I do not consider physics laws as external, anterior, to the universe (since there is nothing "anterior" to the start of time). They are a part of it. It is not even autogenous because it did not even created itself, insead it always was since time started with it

d) I do not consider that universe or life have a purpose since this would involve a designer. Of course human beings are free to give themselves goals if they desire so. But as for me I simply chase my long-term obsessions and ambitions, while tending to my desires along the way. Desires being a vast word that can encompass everything from gluttony to charity.

e) Why is it enough for me?
* Because this nice, proven, theoretical construction suffices to itself. You can add a god behind the curtail if you want to but this is superfluous.
* Because religions look obviously man-made to me and because I cannot believe an instant in omniscience, or in an petty, wrathful and capricious god who looks so much human and orders so much bullshits.
* At best I acknowledge the theoretical hypothesis that we would be the creation of a scientist or a teenager playing a game. But I refuse to believe so since I hate the idea of a god, of a being daring to stand above me. Even more so if this being is a damn teenager!
#14677626
Metaphysics exist, it's just that the human brain can't process everything and in our hubris we sometimes declare that if we can't get something to reproduce, it must not be real. This is just us fooling ourselves, many people are afraid of the idea that metaphysics could exist and actually find comfort in atheism.

For example, you guys won't believe me or will think that I'm on drugs (I never am!) but I regularly predict the future with an impossible degree of certainty. It applies to things big and small, for example I often know what I'm going to write in people's forum threads on the internet before I actually read their thread but the posts I come up with ahead of time never need alteration and never seem to be off-topic. To be fair this is a pretty open topic but I consider it miraculous nonetheless and this kind of thing happens to me on an almost daily basis and not just over the internet. I suspect one of the reasons I have this "talent" which is rather epiphytic in nature is because I have no desire to use it to materially enrich myself or anyone else but it does provide some incidental benefits that were probably reaped more broadly in more traditional eras.

Edit: Although it probably seems to readers on here that I write things which have nothing to do with the provided topics I don't see it this way, I feel as if people have sometimes lost the ability to conceive of ideas as simple as "you should enjoy your job" independently by now and seemingly off-topic replies from me are meant to try and orient readers back towards fundamentals they may have lost track of.
#14677637
for example I often know what I'm going to write in people's forum threads on the internet before I actually read their thread

Somehow, I believe you.
#14677651
For a start, why is it that we have that need in us and how did it develop ?


I don't have any definite beliefs, but I suspect it's partly because we are built to seek patterns in everything and partly because we deeply desire for there to be something definite we can hold on to.
What do you believe it is that created the universe and why ?


I don't know, and if there is a why at all I doubt I'd be capable of understanding it.

how did you reach that conclusion and why do you think you did reach it specifically than all the others given by many in the world today ?


I decided when I was a teenager that I had no way of knowing any particular truth for sure and I didn't have enough hubris to simply pick some human centric theology and start believing it. I plan to live my life as best I can and if there is some sort of afterlife and judgement I will face it. I can do nothing more than that short of being contacted by some higher power.
What do you think is the purpose of this universe and why does it exist ?


It simply exists.
And for both, what do you think the purpose of our own existence is ? and why ?


We are all just making it up as we go along.
#14677652
For a start, why is it that we have that need in us and how did it develop ?


I don't have any definite beliefs, but I suspect it's partly because we are built to seek patterns in everything and partly because we deeply desire for there to be something definite we can hold on to.
What do you believe it is that created the universe and why ?


I don't know, and if there is a why at all I doubt I'd be capable of understanding it.

how did you reach that conclusion and why do you think you did reach it specifically than all the others given by many in the world today ?


I decided when I was a teenager that I had no way of knowing any particular truth for sure and I didn't have enough hubris to simply pick some human centric theology and start believing it. I plan to live my life as best I can and if there is some sort of afterlife and judgement I will face it. I can do nothing more than that short of being contacted by some higher power.
What do you think is the purpose of this universe and why does it exist ?


It simply exists.
And for both, what do you think the purpose of our own existence is ? and why ?


We are all just making it up as we go along.
#14677693
anasawad wrote:There is always that need to look for something greater than us and that this thing will empower us and save us.

For a start, why is it that we have that need in us and how did it develop ?

Because we all know by our own reason and logic using common sense that we did not create ourselves or the universe. We also know that we are subject to injury, death, and decay. So it is natural for us to believe there must be something greater that made both the universe and man within it. Therefore, we have this hope that this creative force will empower us with abilities to save ourselves or will come to our aid to save us from death and destruction.

anasawad wrote:What do you believe it is that created the universe and why ? how did you reach that conclusion and why do you think you did reach it specifically than all the others given by many in the world today ?


I believe the God of the Holy Bible is the creator of the universe, because it makes more sense to me than any other explanation.

anasawad wrote:On a philosophical view.
If you're a theist.
Why do you think god created the universe ? and what do you think is going to come after in the material world ?

I believe God created the universe to show His great power, creative ability, and majesty in design. I believe after this material world God will create a new universe and earth that combines the material and spiritual in a more cohesive way.

anasawad wrote:And for both, what do you think the purpose of our own existence is ? and why ?

I believe our existence is to provide physical/spiritual children and a wife for God's pleasure.
#14677833
What do you believe it is that created the universe and why ? how did you reach that conclusion and why do you think you did reach it specifically than all the others given by many in the world today?

I think my view here is comparable to that of Henri Bergson's "elan vital." That is, I think there is a natural drive within the cosmos toward greater novelty and complexity. So whether it's starting from a "primeval atom," as Lemaitre put it, or from a beginning-less expansion of dark energy (one of the latest theories to gain traction), there is an intrinsic need to create higher and more complex forms.

Why do you think god created the universe?

As a panentheist, I think of God as experiencing the cosmos from within. So this increase in complexity would add greater depth to God. God grows with the cosmos, just as the cosmos grows with God.

and what do you think is going to come after in the material world?

I believe in a kind of growing block universe, where the past is preserved in the fabric of spacetime while the future consists of multiple possibilities being concretized within the present. The preservation of the past means that every moment of your life, every experience you've ever had, is preserved forever. The sum total of these experiences creates a kind of field that is a kind of enduring form of you, and could be thought of as a kind of soul. What this soul might experience after death is, I think, beyond rational comprehension, but I suspect it would have something to do with the field for the cosmos itself -- an ever-growing field of inner depth from the ever-increasing complexity of the universe. In other words, the presence of God. Yet this may not all be experienced at once, and some sort of dreamlike state akin to purgatory (or the bardos, if you're Buddhist) might precede it.

And for both, what do you think the purpose of our own existence is? and why?

I think our purpose is to realize our purpose. Which is to say, I think everyone has a different telos in their life, and the one unifying goal we all have is to realize what that telos is for ourselves.
#14677885
Paradigm wrote:What do you believe it is that created the universe and why ? how did you reach that conclusion and why do you think you did reach it specifically than all the others given by many in the world today?
I think my view here is comparable to that of Henri Bergson's "elan vital." That is, I think there is a natural drive within the cosmos toward greater novelty and complexity. So whether it's starting from a "primeval atom," as Lemaitre put it, or from a beginning-less expansion of dark energy (one of the latest theories to gain traction), there is an intrinsic need to create higher and more complex forms.

Why do you think god created the universe?
As a panentheist, I think of God as experiencing the cosmos from within. So this increase in complexity would add greater depth to God. God grows with the cosmos, just as the cosmos grows with God.

and what do you think is going to come after in the material world?
I believe in a kind of growing block universe, where the past is preserved in the fabric of spacetime while the future consists of multiple possibilities being concretized within the present. The preservation of the past means that every moment of your life, every experience you've ever had, is preserved forever. The sum total of these experiences creates a kind of field that is a kind of enduring form of you, and could be thought of as a kind of soul. What this soul might experience after death is, I think, beyond rational comprehension, but I suspect it would have something to do with the field for the cosmos itself -- an ever-growing field of inner depth from the ever-increasing complexity of the universe. In other words, the presence of God. Yet this may not all be experienced at once, and some sort of dreamlike state akin to purgatory (or the bardos, if you're Buddhist) might precede it.

And for both, what do you think the purpose of our own existence is? and why?
I think our purpose is to realize our purpose. Which is to say, I think everyone has a different telos in their life, and the one unifying goal we all have is to realize what that telos is for ourselves.

This is pure bullshit that answer no questions raised by the original poster.
#14677917
for example I often know what I'm going to write in people's forum threads on the internet before I actually read their thread


Well, i also do believe you do, i think there's something about the nature of time that let us humans see in the short term future. Maybe it's an illusion but in that case it is a very powerful one.
#14677939
Besoeker wrote:And youe evidently read what is posted.
Or, more accurately, you read what isn't posted.

Your comment was not even an effort to answer anasawad's questions. It is only another attempt to take the threads you don't like off topic, which you are very adapt at doing.
User avatar
By Ummon
#14677941
It's weird to me that you defaulted to splitting this topic into a matter of religion/spirituality because honestly I was just thinking of it in terms of math. I would like to say that not all religions posit external forces creating the universe, but many eastern ones suggest many other ideas like the universe being self-existent or an internal cognitive view of the universe (ie it is all in your mind) and in some ways physics has similar concepts that are more existentialist. To me, math is a symbolic language that represents the abstract that is at the seat of being. The center of all the why questions. For example, recently I was reading an article suggesting that the spacing of the primes can be explained by "universality" in distribution of discrete states that mirrors those we see in spectral lines from atoms, the internet, the patterns of cab drivers stopping to pick up clients, and more. These are the "why" questions that fascinate me.

https://www.quantamagazine.org/20130205 ... -converge/

Prime spacing is important because the primes are in some ways the fundamental units of math from which the rest of it arises analogous to the fundamental physical constants in physics or something like pi. We are even beginning to get glimpses of the physical laws as arising spontaneously out of mathematical structures like Ramanujan's mock modular forms possibly correlating with string theory. To me this big "math universe" is a large theatre one which the game of life is played, or perhaps I should say it is a self-recursive algorithm that is capable of re-writing itself being able to be both software and hardware simultaneously both the observer and the observed. In this large matrix it is like a library of babel where many conflicting ideas come and go like waves on the ocean, but for those who can see the glimmers of the structure there is something much bigger and more profound. There is Unity. There are chaos and order creating one another.
#14677943
Ummon wrote:It's weird to me that you defaulted to splitting this topic into a matter of religion/spirituality because honestly I was just thinking of it in terms of math. I would like to say that not all religions posit external forces creating the universe, but many eastern ones suggest many other ideas like the universe being self-existent or an internal cognitive view of the universe (ie it is all in your mind) and in some ways physics has similar concepts that are more existentialist. To me, math is a symbolic language that represents the abstract that is at the seat of being. The center of all the why questions. For example, recently I was reading an article suggesting that the spacing of the primes can be explained by "universality" in distribution of discrete states that mirrors those we see in spectral lines from atoms, the internet, the patterns of cab drivers stopping to pick up clients, and more. These are the "why" questions that fascinate me.

I do not see this as an effort to answer anasawad's questions no matter how fascinating it might be to you. Perhaps it would be better to make another thread on those "why" questions that fascinate you.

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