[Dr House]

Cuban healthcare.

Cuban food.

And I'm sorry, but alcoholism is kind of a consequence of state socialism. That the USSR stamped it out is a crime against humanity -- I for one couldn't bear to be a Soviet citizen if I couldn't get shitfaced and forget that I was.

Denmark is not an equal culture to the United States. They're more Germanic, more intelligent, and more industrious. Switzerland is more of an apples to apples comparison to Scandinavia, and they're overall more prosperous.

The US is demographically closer to Brazil than Scandinavia. The only demographically somewhat similar country to us in Europe is France, which has vastly worse unemployment problems and a substantially lower average income.

Between US states, there's a positive correlation between bureaucratic intrusiveness and both inequality and poverty.

https://mises.org/library/vote-your-fee ... and-richer

Even this article doesn't do the correlation justice, because it uses standard poverty measures. Per the supplemental poverty measure (which accounts for cost of living), big, bureaucratic blue states like have truly staggering poverty rates. Your own state is the poorest in the country by a long mile.

[Luna]

Cuban healthcare.

PanAm Post is a Miami Cuban rag. I'd like to see a neutral international observer's take. Oh wait, that's the World Health Organization.

Cuban food.

So, this link explicitly credits Cuba's policies for their exceptionally long lifespan and low infant mortality. I do have to wonder what changed in the lack of provision for essentials then, like if there's a famine or something. It's food for investigation, but considering the first part far from an indictment of socialism.

And I'm sorry, but alcoholism is kind of a consequence of state socialism.

Alcoholism is a consequence of Russian culture. Far-northern and Slavic societies in general drink a lot. The Czech Republic is one of the most economically liberal countries in the world, and scores way up there with Belarus and Lithuania.

Denmark is not an equal culture to the United States. They're more Germanic, more intelligent, and more industrious. Switzerland is more of an apples to apples comparison to Scandinavia, and they're overall more prosperous.

The Swiss work day is considerably longer, so you're using very exchange-value metrics of prosperity. I think leisure time matters just as much as the raw number of goodies you have, especially when the disparity between Switzerland and (say) Sweden is so small.

The US is demographically closer to Brazil than Scandinavia. The only demographically somewhat similar country to us in Europe is France, which has vastly worse unemployment problems and a substantially lower average income.

And yet has significantly more leisure time, and better work conditions.

EDIT: In the interests of intellectual honesty, I took a statement out here. Reviewing the WHR link, it looks like France's happiness rates have dropped considerably in the last five years.

Between US states, there's a positive correlation between bureaucratic intrusiveness and both inequality and poverty.

I don't support bureaucratic intrusiveness. But thanks for the totally baseless assumption, you're such a nice person. I support bottom-up feedback as often as feasibly possible, considering my model is the NEP I could even be construed as a market socialist.

https://mises.org/library/vote-your-feet-free-states-are-happier-and-richer

Mises' article on American states does not negate the larger sample of every country in the world. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Happiness_Report

[Dr House]

The Swiss make 67% more than the Swedish, but only work an average of 6 hours more (42 vs 36). Neither actually make as much as we do, on account of it being more expensive to live there; but the Swiss get closer.

Btw Americans don't actually work that much. The average work week in the US is 34 hours, with full time workers working about 42 hours and part time ones working 28. Something like 20% of workers here, further, are independent and set their own hours.

[Luna]

The Swiss make 67% more than the Swedish, but only work an average of 6 hours more (42 vs 36). Neither actually make as much as we do, on account of it being more expensive to live there; but the Swiss get closer.

The cost of living is also higher in Switzerland. By 61%, so, you've almost made up the full wage gap. Yeah, I'm going to go with Sweden's higher leisure time.

Btw Americans don't actually work that much. The average work week in the US is 34 hours, with full time workers working about 45 hours and part time ones working 28.

On paper. Factor in work that you have to do from home via phone or laptop in your "off" hours, and it's considerably longer. France bans it, by the way.

Something like 20% of workers here, further, are independent and set their own hours.

Closer to 10%, the Western petit-bourgeois is largely dead as a class. And most of those have to keep on a schedule. Their hours are roughly set by whatever the market hours are anyway.

[Dr House]

on paper. Factor in work that you have to do from home via phone or laptop in your "off" hours, and it's considerably longer. France bans it, by the way.

Blue collars don't have to worry about offsite work, and they still kick Europe's ass on earnings. They make close to the same after taxes as Sweden (roughly, $2300 vs 2600), but cost of living is about 60% here what it is on Sweden. If you live in a state that's not a bureaucratic shit hole, the gap widens.

[Luna]

Blue collars don't have to worry about offsite work, and they still kick Europe's ass on earnings. They make the same after taxes as Sweden (nominally), but cost of living is about 60% here what it is on Sweden. If you live in a state that's not a bureaucratic shit hole, the gap widens.

And the happiness rate is lower. The leisure time is lower. The quality of health provision is lower. The education level is lower. Most of those "non-bureaucratic shit hole" states are less urban, so the cultural opportunities are lower. The quality of life is lower, on all of these metrics, in most of America than in Sweden.

[Pants-of-dog]

Well, I think we can see that the negative impacts of climate change are not being addressed by the free market, and we can see that environmental regulations are not actually causing negative economc impact.

I would like to explore the correlation between belief in free market infallibility and climate change denialism.

[Luna]

He's just hijacking the thread for a personal soapbox on every facet of libertarian dogma.

[Dr House]

And the happiness rate is lower.

Is it? Antidepressant use is higher in Denmark in particular. I don't altogether trust happiness questionnaires because all they ask is "are you happy". Maybe they're supposed to say they are over there because it's polite. Lord knows Americans love to complain about everything.

The quality of health provision is lower.

No it isn't. It's just more unequal. The difference between Denmark's average wage and ours buys you a lot of healthcare here.

The education level is lower.

Despite the fact we actually spend more on education.

The leisure time is lower.

Only if you so choose.

The quality of life is lower.

It really, really isn't. We have more open spaces, our houses are bigger, we have AC and barbecues and cheap cars and a ridiculous amount of luxuries. American lives are, by global standards, downright decadent. I wouldn't give this up to go live in a cubbyhole in Europe and take public transit because it's ecological.

[Luna]

No it isn't. It's just more unequal. The difference between Denmark's average wage and ours buys you a lot of healthcare here.

So, for the average person in one country or the other, you can expect better treatment in Denmark. That's exactly what healthcare statistics measure.

The average wage gap only has an impact if you're a very rich Danish person who can afford to go splurge on treatments in the considerably cheaper US.

Despite the fact we actually spend more on education.

And have a less efficient system. We adopted this Prussian teach-to-the-test thing and quashed local control. Denmark runs its education (and healthcare) to a significant degree through local councils that set standards appropriate for their local needs.

Only if you so choose.

Read: only if your boss lets you. Everyone needs leisure time to lead a fulfilling, well-rounded, productive life. Whether you make the risky decision to be an artist or work in a factory.

It really, really isn't. We have more open spaces, our houses are bigger, we have AC and barbecues and cheap cars and a ridiculous amount of luxuries. American lives are, by global standards, downright decadent. I wouldn't give this up to go live in a cubbyhole in Europe and take public transit because it's ecological.

My area's public transit is actually much more efficient than taking a car, for the record. Also clean, comfortable, fun discussions with the person next to you. The occasional mentally unstable homeless person, but that's part of the joy of the BART.

But, aside from the whole "everything's bigger in Texas" bit: better education, healthcare, higher happiness scores, more leisure time. On all of these, they score better. That looks pretty damn good, and I'd take that over "but but but I need a barbecue."

[Pants-of-dog]

Luna,

You are far more patient than me.

I will involve myself in the conversation if it returns to climate change. Until then, you are doing an admirable job.