[Besoeker]

That is not much of an argument as you don't know he does not. Disproving the existence of God is impossible;

As is disproving the existence of the FSM or faries or - the list goes on.
But that wasn't my point.

[Zag Edit: Rule 2]

[ingliz]

But that wasn't my point.

It wasn't mine.

This was.

Whether He exists or not, it matters not a jot, it is an easy enough task to prove the Bible is the work of man.

[Hindsite]

Salvation by works: the contradiction between Paul and James.

Is justification by faith or by works?

Paul

"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God."

Romans, 5:1-2 KJV

James

"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

James 2:24 KJV


@Hindsite

No arguing the text here.

Just as some believe that the teachings of Jesus, Paul, and James are contradictory, there are also some that believe the four gospels are contradictory. However, when everything is considered as a whole, they simply compliment each other.

There is no conflict in that salvation is not something one can earn, but is a free gift from God that we acquire by our belief and faith in Christ Jesus. James does not challenge Paul's view that we are saved by faith apart from works, but is only indicating the difference between one that has true faith and one that only professes to have faith, but never does anything that show his true faith.

This is were justification comes into play. Both Paul and James agree that one is not justificed by faith only. Paul says we are justified by grace (Romans 3:24), by Power (Romans 4:25), by faith (Romans 5:1), by blood (Romans 5:9), and by God (Romans 8:33). Whereas James says we are justified by works (James 2:24). So when you consider the whole of scripture, there are six aspects to justification.

God is the One that justifies; grace is the principle upon which God justifies; faith is the means by which man receives it; the savior's blood is the price; the power of the resurrection is the proof; and good works are the result. As Jesus said, "A bad tree does not produce good fruit."

Praise the Lord.
HalleluYah

[ingliz]

we are saved by faith apart from works,

The Lord did not see fit to mention Faith in this judgment scene. All we are left with is that the good works performed by the blessed caused their salvation, while the omission of the same works merited eternal damnation.

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works."

Revelation 20: 12-13

is only indicating the difference between one that has true faith and one that only professes to have faith, but never does anything that show his true faith.

Sola fide - by faith alone

Sola gratia- by grace alone

We [Protestants] are saved solely through faith in Jesus Christ because of God’s grace and Christ’s merit alone. We are not saved by our merits or declared righteous by our good works.

Each sola represents a key belief in Protestant Christian faith in contradistinction to the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church.

Are you turning to Catholicism?

[Hindsite]

The Lord did not see fit to mention Faith in this judgment scene. All we are left with is that the good works performed by the blessed caused their salvation, while the omission of the same works merited eternal damnation.

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works."

Revelation 20: 12-13


Sola fide - by faith alone

Sola gratia- by grace alone


Each sola represents a key belief in Protestant Christian faith in contradistinction to the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church.

Are you turning to Catholicism?

Revelation 20:10-15 refers to the final judgment of Satan and the great white throne judgment of the unbelievers at the second resurrection. Notice that anyone whose name is not written in the Book of Life for believers is judged from the works written in the other books for the unbelievers. These unbelievers will receive the punishment of the second death in the Lake of Fire, because they had no faith in salvation by grace and the cleansing power of the blood of Jesus.

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
(Revelation 20:6)

Praise the Lord.
HalleluYah

[Besoeker]

As is disproving the existence of the FSM or faries or - the list goes on.
But that wasn't my point.

[Zag Edit: Rule 2]

Totally unreasonable edit in my opinion.
But I don't pull the strings here.............

[ingliz]

when everything is considered as a whole

When everything is considered as a whole, yours is a very strange reading. On your reading, John the Divine not content with contradicting himself, contradicts John and Paul.

judgment of the unbelievers at the second resurrection

No, it is obvious, from Revelation 20:15, that the resurrection is general (John 5:28 ; 1 Cor. 15:52 ; 2 Esd. 6:20, 7:32 ; Apoc. Bar. 24:1, 30:2-5; etc).


"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming , in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice"

John 5:28 KJV

"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed"

1 Cor. 15:52 KJV

"And when the world, that shall begin to vanish away, shall be finished, then will I shew these tokens: the books shall be opened before the firmament, and they shall see all together"

2 Esd. 6:20 KJV

at the second resurrection.

Death, the last enemy (1 Corinthians 15:26) is destroyed.

"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

Revelation 21:4

the second death

"there shall be no more death"

For the sinner, the punishment is a life without God.

[Hindsite]

When everything is considered as a whole, yours is a very strange reading. On your reading, John the Divine not content with contradicting himself, contradicts John and Paul.


No, it is obvious, from Revelation 20:15, that the resurrection is general (John 5:28 ; 1 Cor. 15:52 ; 2 Esd. 6:20, 7:32 ; Apoc. Bar. 24:1, 30:2-5; etc).


"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming , in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice"

John 5:28 KJV

"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed"

1 Cor. 15:52 KJV

"And when the world, that shall begin to vanish away, shall be finished, then will I shew these tokens: the books shall be opened before the firmament, and they shall see all together"

2 Esd. 6:20 KJV


Death, the last enemy (1 Corinthians 15:26) is destroyed.

"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

Revelation 21:4


"there shall be no more death"

For the sinner, the punishment is a life without God.

You are confusing the first resurrection with the second resurrection. Read my other post more carefully. Revelation 20:15 is as follows:
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
This proves that this refers to the second resurrection and the final judgment of the wicked because all those whose names are not written in the Book of Life are thrown into the Lake of Fire, the second death.

You must understand that there is no work or amount of works that you can do that will ever remove your sins. We all deserve the penalty of death for our sin against God. It is only by the grace of God that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life (John 3:16). So it is by our faith to believe and put our trust in the Savior that saves us from the second death. We who have the faith to believe in Jesus will have our names written in the Book of Life.

Praise the Lord.
HalleluYah

[ingliz]

You are confusing the first resurrection with the second resurrection

I am not the one confused when your reading would have Christ contradicting Himself.

"My kingdom is not of this world"

John 18:36 KJV

Ever since St. Augustine, the default position has been that of amilleniallism, that the 1000 years refers to the present time, when Christ reigns through His Church and Satan is bound (in such a way that he cannot prevent the Gospel from spreading throughout the world).

"Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ."

1 Peter 2:5

first resurrection

The first resurrection is baptism.

By Baptism we are saved: that is, we are brought from death to life, and that is the first Resurrection; and we are brought from death to life hereafter, by virtue of the Covenant of the state of Grace into which in Baptism we enter, and are preserved from the second Death, and receive a glorious and an eternal life. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, said our Blessed Saviour; and, According to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of Regeneration and renowing of the Holy Ghost.

"Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead."

Colossians 2:12 KJV

"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."

Rm 6:3-4 KJV

"Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God."

Rm 6:13 KJV

"If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God."

Colossians 3:1KJV

at the second resurrection.

"And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust."

Acts 24:15 KJV


NB. "a resurrection of the dead"

a \ˈā\: one designated a used before singular nouns

[Hindsite]

I am not the one confused when your reading would have Christ contradicting Himself.

"My kingdom is not of this world"
John 18:36 KJV

The world does not refer to the earth, but to the present world or age at that time. As we see from the following scriptures:

And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
(2 Peter 2:5)

Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
(2 Peter 3:6-7)

So we see that Jesus was referring to that present age of the world at that time and not to the earth.

And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
(Revelation 11:15)
So we see that eventually all the kingdoms of the world become the kingdoms of Jesus.

Water baptism is only a symbolic act of faith by the believer and so is the communion service of bread and wine.

"And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust."
Acts 24:15 KJV

NB. "a resurrection of the dead"

a \ˈā\: one designated a used before singular nouns

The Greek does not say there is only "one" resurrection total. But that there is both a resurrection for the just and a resurrection for the unjust.

Question: "What is the first resurrection? What is the second resurrection?"

Answer: Daniel 12:2 summarizes the two very different fates facing mankind: “Many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” Everyone will be raised from the dead, but not everyone will share the same destiny. The New Testament reveals the further detail of separate resurrections for the just and the unjust.

Revelation 20:4-6 mentions a “first resurrection” and identifies those involved as “blessed and holy.” The second death (the lake of fire, Revelation 20:14) has no power over these individuals. The first resurrection, then, is the raising of all believers. It corresponds with Jesus’ teaching of the “resurrection of the just” (Luke 14:14) and the “resurrection of life” (John 5:29).

The first resurrection takes place in various stages. Jesus Christ Himself (the “first fruits,” 1 Corinthians 15:20), paved the way for the resurrection of all who believe in Him. There was a resurrection of the Jerusalem saints (Matthew 27:52-53) which should be included in our consideration of the first resurrection. Still to come are the resurrection of “the dead in Christ” at the Lord’s return (1 Thessalonians 4:16) and the resurrection of the martyrs at the end of the Tribulation (Revelation 20:4).

Revelation 20:12-13 identifies those comprising the second resurrection as the wicked judged by God at the great white throne judgment prior to being cast into the lake of fire. The second resurrection, then, is the raising of all unbelievers; the second resurrection is connected to the second death. It corresponds with Jesus’ teaching of the “resurrection of damnation” (John 5:29).

The event which divides the first and second resurrections seems to be the millennial kingdom. The last of the righteous are raised to reign “with Christ a thousand years” (Revelation 20:4), but the “rest of the dead [that is, the wicked] lived not again until the thousand years were finished” (Revelation 20:5).

What great rejoicing will attend the first resurrection! What great anguish at the second! What a responsibility we have to share the Gospel! “And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire” (Jude 23).

https://www.gotquestions.org/resurrecti ... econd.html

Praise the Lord.
HalleluYah

[ingliz]

The world does not refer to the earth, but to the present world or age at that time.

It does not mean ‘My kingdom is not of this world now (Dan 7:13-14*), but shall be so hereafter;’ as if Christ were promising a millennium: He rejected offers of an earthly kingdom. When Pilate says, "Then you are a king?" Jesus refuses to accept the title: "You have said it, not I."

"When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone"

John 6:15 KJV

"He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not."

John 1:10 KJV

"And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world."

John 8:23 KJV

The Greek does not say...

Tut, Hindsite, apostasy? Have you stopped "listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation."

The King James Bible is God's infallible word for the English speaking people. There is no such thing as "the Greek text." ... Usually when a man makes reference to "the Greek," he is having trouble believing what God has already told him in THE ENGLISH

* Dan 7:13-14

This cannot be understood as relating to the last judgment, for it is introduced without reference to it. There is no assembling of the people of the world together; no act of judging the righteous and the wicked; no pronouncing of a sentence on either.

[Hindsite]

It does not mean ‘My kingdom is not of this world now (Dan 7:13-14*), but shall be so hereafter;’ as if Christ were promising a millennium: He rejected offers of an earthly kingdom. When Pilate says, "Then you are a king?" Jesus refuses to accept the title: "You have said it, not I."

"When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone"

John 6:15 KJV

"He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not."

John 1:10 KJV

"And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world."

John 8:23 KJV

Tut, Hindsite, apostasy? Have you stopped "listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation."

* Dan 7:13-14

This cannot be understood as relating to the last judgment, for it is introduced without reference to it. There is no assembling of the people of the world together; no act of judging the righteous and the wicked; no pronouncing of a sentence on either.

You have apparently been deceived by the false prophets and teachers that Jesus and the apostles warned about. However, I do agree that the statement "There is no such thing as "the Greek text" is heresy or pure ignorance of the facts.

Daniel 7:13-14 King James Version (KJV)
I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Jesus often referred to Himself as the son of man. So Daniel is seeing a vision of Christ being seated at the right hand of the Father and given a kingdom on earth.

So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
(Mark 16:19)

And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
(Acts 1:9-11)

And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
(Mark 13:26-27)

John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
(Revelation 1:4-7)

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
(Revelation 20:4-6)

The Second Resurrection
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
(Revelation 20:12)

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
(1 Timothy 3:16)

God revealed Himself to Israel as redeemer of His covenant people; but before God became man by the miracle of the incarnation by the virgin birth, it was a mystery to them how God could ever qualify as redeemer, which implies a blood relationship. And so God had to become one of us to redeem us from the guilt and penalty of our sin.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ...And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
(John 1:1, 14)

He was not of the world, yet he became part of the world in order to redeem us from sin.

Praise the Lord.
HalleluYah

[ingliz]

However, I do agree that the statement 'There is no such thing as "the Greek text"' is heresy

Your Church (cult?) would consider you the heretic.

From the same webpage:

Original Manuscripts

There is no such thing as "the Greek text." ...Usually when a man makes reference to "the Greek," he is having trouble believing what God has already told him in THE ENGLISH.

[...]

What Should A Church Believe?

20 Questions to Ask before Joining a Church

[...]

II. Do you believe the King James Bible is God's infallible word for the English speaking people?

So Daniel is seeing a vision of Christ being seated at the right hand of the Father and given a kingdom on earth.

You cannot base your argument on eschatological hope; Dan 7:13-14, Mark 16:19, etc. have nothing to do with the last judgement. The "Son of man" is not represented here as coming with a view to judge the world at the winding-up of human affairs, but for the purpose of setting up a kingdom for his Church. A kingdom where Christ reigns through His Church (in (ἐν), but not of (ἐκ) the world, John 17:16). There is no assembling of the people of the world together; no act of judging the righteous and the wicked; no pronouncing of a sentence on either. It is evident that the verses refer to a world that is to continue under the dominion of the Church.

"And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen."

Mark 16:20 KJV

"Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ."

1 Peter 2:5 KJV

Acts 1:9-11

Most scholars believe these verses to be a copyist's interpolation (A. W. Zwiep, Essays on the Acts of the Apostles).
.

[Hindsite]

I do not belong to the Bible Baptist Church. They are a cult church.
I was baptized in Calvary Baptist Church in Tyler, Texas. It is a part of the Southern Baptist Church.

http://www.sbc.net/bfm2000/bfm2000.asp

[Besoeker]

I do not belong to the Bible Baptist Church. They are a cult church.
I was baptized in Calvary Baptist Church in Tyler, Texas. It is a part of the Southern Baptist Church.

http://www.sbc.net/bfm2000/bfm2000.asp

That's OK.
Your point is?

[Hindsite]

That's OK.
Your point is?

The point was not for you, but for ingliz, who quoted from a Bible Baptist Church tract. The point was that I do not believe that, because I am a member of a real Christian Baptist Church and not a cult.

Praise the Lord.
HalleluYah

[Godstud]

All Christianity is, is a bunch of shitty cults. Baptists are among the worst. They're intolerant pissants who want to suck off Jesus.

[Hindsite]

All Christianity is, is a bunch of shitty cults. Baptists are among the worst. They're intolerant pissants who want to suck off Jesus.

All you want to do is harass me on my Christian beliefs. I get it already. So why don't you make a tread on your beliefs and how much better they are than other peoples?

[Godstud]

My beliefs don't deny reality, or science. They also don't discriminate against other people simply because they don't believe what I want them to believe in. I often react in a violently opposing manner to yours because of the way you respond to reality, science, and facts. If that pisses you off... mission accomplished!

Despite what you believe, I'd help you if you were homeless, or hurt. I don't need some mythical being telling me to treat people nicely, or I'll burn in hell, for me to recognize that treating people with compassion, and empathy, is good for everyone. I don't need religion to be a good human being, despite how you judge me, and others with similar beliefs.

I also don't discriminate against the poor people, unlike yourself and some others. Believe it, or not, most poor people are not poor because of the choices they have, but the choices they simply do NOT have.

In reality, I have nothing against Jesus, since he was NOT speaking like you often do. Jesus wasn't saying, "Don't believe in things that intelligent people find out about.". Jesus was about compassion, forgiveness, healing, and was as big a socialist as you could ever find. Jesus never mentioned science, strangely enough... Jesus wasn't a capitalist, or a selfish person. He didn't say, "If you don't have enough money, don't help others.". Nope. He said if you have two shirts, give someone who doesn't have a shirt, one.

So yes, Christianity as a religion(churches), are bullshit. All the churches seek to interpret your bible to make it say what they want it to say, including YOURS.

Jesus? Probably a really decent human being, and surely someone to look up to. Godly? Only according to one fictional novel.

[ingliz]

@Hindsite

eschatological hope

In plain language, the theology of hope (death) makes eschatology (death, and what happens after death) its central governing concept; all other teachings revolve around it. Hence the obsessive wishing for the End of Days, seeing signs and portents everywhere, interpreting the bible as if Revelation was the only book in the Bible, etc.

It would explain your very odd reading of the NT. And, why, when the verses you cited clearly refer to a world that is to continue under the dominion of the Church, you chose to rely on a copyist's interpolation to carry your argument.

Are you living in 'hope'?