[truthseeker2006]

Can Islam be Reformed ?

[neopagan]

I don't believe any religion reforms, they simply subdivide into multiple sects, but the question begs the further question: "Why does Islam need reforming?"

[Potemkin]

I don't believe any religion reforms, they simply subdivide into multiple sects, but the question begs the further question: "Why does Islam need reforming?"

Because it is incompatible with Modernity. So was Christianity, of course, but the West solved that problem by chopping Christianity's balls off during from the Enlightenment (and in American, they solved it by paying lip service to Christianity but turning it into a hypocritical parody of itself, with Jesus riding on the back of a dinosaur and the like). Islam has not yet had its balls chopped off, due to the fact that the Enlightenment never happened in the Middle East, which at that time was still under the dead hand of the Ottoman Empire. What the Middle East needs isn't a 'Reformation' (that already happened, and gave rise to Salafism), but an Enlightenment. Under the current world order, it isn't likely to get one any time soon. It's not in the interests of the regimes and social factions currently in power there, it's not in the interests of the Islamist insurgents, and more to the point it's not in the West's interests either. This means that the current situation is likely to persist for the foreseeable future.

[Frollein]

The Koran is a "read only" file, no administrator rights anywhere.

[Zionist Nationalist]

The Koran is a "read only" file, no administrator rights anywhere.

good one

[Potemkin]

The Koran is a "read only" file, no administrator rights anywhere.

So is the Bible, at least in principle. One of the basic principles of the Reformation was a wish to return to the authority of the Biblical text. A similar principle lay behind the rise of Salafism and Wahabism in the 18th century, which opposed the claims of the Ottoman Empire to be the Caliphate and to have authority over the Holy Sites in Mecca and Medina. As I said, contrary to what some (presumably Protestant) American commentators have said, Islam doesn't need its version of the Reformation to 'tame' it - (i) the Protestant Reformation didn't tame Christianity, but actually made it more virulent, and (ii) Islam has already had its version of the Reformation, with the results we see before us today.

[stephen50right]

It could, but it won't be.

[The Sabbaticus]

The Islamic religion is like a museum of history and live-action exhibition of various historical periods featuring clownesque performers who are to dim to realize that their theatre production has no overlapping correspondence with the modern reality of their bemused audience. Some parts of the audience feel so much sympathy for these pitiful wretches, that they've begun to participate in this theatre production on equal footing, lending credence to the shared delusions of this dimwitted and arguably insane theatre cast. And they react angrily when other parts of the audience do not feel obliged to participate in this shameless farce.

And whether it can be reformed or not is not a question Westerners should be burdened with. Why should it be their cross to bear? Their question should be one of much more practical pedigree.

[Oxymandias]

@Frollein

Yet reading the Koran by itself is much more in line with modernity than reading the Koran with the Hadiths.

@stephen50right

I bet Muslims in Baghdad during the 8th century believed the same thing.

[Atlantis]

and more to the point it's not in the West's interests either.

So what you are saying is that the West has an interest in living with a constant thorn in its side? That sort of view takes a particularly masochistic conspiracy theory.

As you rightly observed, the problem of the Muslim world is that it can't come to terms with modernity. Being kept in a state of constant backwardness, the Muslim world cannot but suffer economic deprivation at home and abroad. That may be in the interest of individual rulers who require pain to hold onto their despotic rule, but it is neither in the interest of the Muslim world at large nor in the interest of the West. If you consider the West to be in favor of the free market, then a modernized Muslim world with a large middle class with substantial buying power is in the interest of the West.

If the Muslim world is to reform, we'll need to get off fossil fuels and get 100% renewable. That'll teach those Arab pariahs to do something useful with their lives.

[minivanburen]

Can Islam be Reformed ?

Yes.

[Potemkin]

So what you are saying is that the West has an interest in living with a constant thorn in its side? That sort of view takes a particularly masochistic conspiracy theory.

You think the Middle East is a constant thorn in the West's side? No, it's not. In fact, we're a constant thorn in their side. So they kill a few dozen of the West's citizens every so often? Big deal. Sucks to be those victims or their relatives, but even 9/11 was a mere pinprick. We repeatedly invade them, topple their governments, occupy their nations and just generally fuck everything up for them. There's no fucking comparison.

As for why an Islamic 'Enlightenment' is not in the West's interests - it is true that a developed Middle East which has entered modernity would create new markets for Western manufactured goods, it would also created new competitors and new rivals on the world stage. The rise of China, and the West's consequent relative decline, has been tolerated for now. But allowing the entire Middle East to do the same? It's not in our interests. Instead, it suits us better to use the region as a source of cheap oil and cheap human labour power. Given that fact, it makes sense for us to keep the region in a state of roiling internal political conflict; or as Condoleeza Rice put it, in a state of "creative chaos".

[noir]

Dlt

[Atlantis]

@Potemkin, competitiveness is determined by technological innovation. The whole of the Islam world with 1.6 billion Muslims doesn't even produces 1% of global technological innovation, and most of that in Turkey. Thus, the threat of the Islam world to the West is purely imaginary. They can barely feed themselves. There isn't a thread of evidence to substantiate the conspiracy about the threat of Islam.

Regarding the ability of Islam to reform, here is an interesting news item about a German lawyer of Turkish origin who recently opened a "reformed mosque" in Berlin where Sunnis, Shiites, Christians, Jews, homosexuals and others are welcome and where women are allowed to preach alongside men even without headscarf. As expected, she had to be given around the clock police protection because of hundreds of death threats from conservative Muslim organisation, especially from Turkey and Egypt. The Turkish government promptly accused her of Gulen-links, which Erdogan uses as a blanket means of attack on everybody he doesn't like. It is clearly the patriarchal establishment of the authoritarian Muslim countries that is shitting its pants. The West would welcome a liberal Islam as a means to fight Islamist terror.

Liberal mosque debate turns political in Germany

Criticism from within the Islamic world has been constant since the first service was held at a new liberal mosque in Berlin. The federal government has come to the defense of the woman who started the initiative.

Liberal mosque in Berlin draws criticism

Men and women pray side-by-side, and there's a female imam who doesn't even wear a headscarf. For many in the Islamic world, these things are inconceivable. A new liberal mosque in Berlin has been causing a stir.

Support has been coming in from high places: With uncharacterisically clear language, the federal government has defended the new, liberal Ibn Rushd-Goethe Mosque against criticism from the Islamic world . In Berlin, Germany's Foreign Ministry, as well as the Interior Ministry, has rejected criticism leveled by the Turkish Religious Affairs Directorate, Diyanet, pointing to protection of religious freedom.

German Interior Ministry spokesman, Tobias Plate, said the issues of religious freedom and the Berlin mosque will be raised with counterparts from Ankara at their next bilateral meeting. Diyanet, a religious authority in Turkey, operates under the aegis of the country's prime minister.

The German government's promise to address the issue brings the debate over the new mosque to the highest political level. One week ago, Berlin attorney and women's rights activist, Seyran Ates, opened the liberal mosque. Situated in Berlin's Moabit neighborhood, it is housed within a local Protestant church and is open to men and women of every sexual orientation.

Ates herself is an imam and chooses not to wear a headscarf while carrying out her duties. That has caused anger in the Islamic world. She said she has been overwhelmed by a flood of hate mail and has also received death threats. Authorities said it remains to be seen if the house of worship will require police protection.

Diyanet has claimed the new mosque is connected to the Gulen Movement operated by exiled Turkish cleric Fethullah Gulen, whom the Turkish government claimed was behind last July's failed coup attempt.

Interior Ministry spokesman Plate called the Turkish criticism bewildering and "unacceptable."
"It cannot be ruled out that such statements have the potential to threaten social harmony within German society," he added.

According to media reports, Ankara has been aggressively pursuing and threatening alleged members of the Gulen movement, as well as institutions connected to it, such as schools - even in Germany.

The German Foreign and Interior ministeries emphasized that their own criticism was not only directed at Diyanet, but also at the supreme authority on fatwas in Egypt. That authority sharply criticized the Berlin mosque for violating Islamic religious responsibilities.

'The state has to protect religious freedom'
Martin Schäfer, spokesman for the German Foreign Ministry, said such statements were, "clearly intended to deny people in Germany the right to exercise their religion and limit their right to freely express their opinion."

He went on to say that the German government summarily rejected any such attempts. "When, where and how people choose to express and live out their religious beliefs is not the government's business. Rather, the opposite is the case: It is our understanding that the state has no authority to interpret religious issues, but instead, has the responsibility to protect freedom of religion, just as it does freedom of speech and freedom of the press."

He went on to remind those present that Turkey is also a signatory of the European Convention on Human Rights, which guarantees religious liberty.

The liberal mosque's opening caused a great stir in Germany and has also received international attention. It is named after one of the most important figures of enlightened Islam, the Arab scholar, physician and philosopher Ibn Rushd (1126-1198), known as Averroes outside the Islamic world, as well as the German poet Johann Wolfgang von Goethe (1749-1832), whose "West-Eastern Divan" is one of the most important German-language books ever written on the exchange of ideas between the Occident and the Orient.

Men and women will pray side by side at the new mosque, and women allowed to preach. The Quran will be interpreted in a "historically critical manner," and organizers say they do not welcome fully veiled women. Seyran Ates started the mosque initiative because she is convinced that the interpretation of Islam must not be left to religious conservatives.

[Besoeker]

I don't believe any religion reforms, they simply subdivide into multiple sects, but the question begs the further question: "Why does Islam need reforming?"

Ditched might be a better option.

[Oxymandias]

@Besoeker

Read my post on Islamic reform please.

[Besoeker]

Yes.

Wouldn't that mean accepting that some of it is incorrect or at least ambiguous?

[Oxymandias]

@Besoeker

Are you implying that there aren't any Muslims or Islamic sects that do accept some of it is incorrect or ambiguous? There are literally hundreds of thousands of Muslims who find the hadiths to be wrong which by Orthodox Muslims, is punishable by death. Furthermore you can find many hadith skeptics in the Middle East as well. Hadith skepticism has a long history overall.

[Rich]

Instead, it suits us better to use the region as a source of cheap oil and cheap human labour power. Given that fact, it makes sense for us to keep the region in a state of roiling internal political conflict; or as Condoleeza Rice put it, in a state of "creative chaos".

The United States and Norway are far better at efficiently producing cheap oil. Marxists and Jewish supremacists have come together to push this imperialistic nonsense. The creative chaos damages western profitability, but it does make Israel safer. Even Israel though is not the cause of the Muslim problem, it just manipulates the problem. Muslims are the cause of the Muslim problem.

[Oxymandias]

@Rich

What is this Muslim problem? If mean Middle Eastern conflicts then it's a mix. There is both a mix between religious and non-religious actors in Middle Eastern geopolitics. However your implication that Muslims are the cause of Middle Eastern conflicts because they are Muslim is by far one of the most contrived and ignorant statements regarding the Middle East. It not only assumes that the only thing the Middle East has to offer is either religion or oil, but also oversimplifies everything in the Middle East. If you were a Middle Eastern diplomat, you would fuck up so hard that Middle Eastern relations would be nearly non-existent given how absolutely ignorant and biased you are.