Is it true that the required Muslim prayer end with "Christians and Jews are contemptible"? - Page 3 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14918771
blackjack21 wrote:Quran.com
Do you think quran.com a good source for interpretations of the Quran? They cite English translations chapter and verse.

Try : (Quran 2:62) as I have it, it says :

Verily, those who have attained to faith [in this divine writ], as well as those who follow the Jewish faith, and the Christians, and the Sabians - all who believe in God and the Last Day and do righteous deeds-shall have their reward with their Sustainer; and no fear need they have, and neither shall they grieve.

The Quran does have warnings against Jews and Christians who approach Islam with a "Bad attitude" and rightly so. But it recognizes those faiths and their true adherents as benign and worthy of respect.

Zam :angel:
#14918783
Godstud wrote:This is an assertion that is sheer fantasy, as no evidence of this has been provided.

Maybe my reading comprehension isn't up to Canadian snuff, but I think the OP asked a question. It didn't make an assertion--at least that's how I read it as an American. This is what I read:

Steve_American wrote:Recently I saw a claim on line that the prayer that all Muslims must recite 5 times a day ends with something like "Christians and Jews are contemptible".

I'm asking you-all, is this true?

If it is, [and I said IF], then it doesn't look good for the religion of peace.

I took it to mean that Steve_American is asking a question. Apparently, that question is very upsetting to you. You have said such things as:

Godstud wrote:This has to do with a claim made in the original post.

The original post didn't make a claim. It mentioned seeing a claim. Again, this could be my American reading comprehension.

Godstud wrote:You still have not provided any evidence that Muslims end prayers with "Christians and Jews are contemptible".

I did not assert that Muslims end their prayers in this way. However, your histrionics got me interested. So I looked into the subject matter a bit.

Godstud wrote:The Muslim prayers mentioned do not support this, either.

All of them mention those who anger Allah, and those who have gone astray. One of them mentions the Jews who evidently anger Allah (perhaps not all of them, but some) and the Christians who have "gone astray."

So according to Quran.com, those who read from the Mohsin Khan recite the prayer (given it is an English translation) as:

Holy Quran: 1:1-7 (according to Mohsin Khan) wrote:In the Name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful
All the praises and thanks be to Allah, the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists)
The Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful
The Only Owner (and the Only Ruling Judge) of the Day of Recompense (i.e. the Day of Resurrection)
You (Alone) we worship, and You (Alone) we ask for help (for each and everything)
Guide us to the Straight Way
The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace, not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger (such as the Jews), nor of those who went astray (such as the Christians)

Perhaps when some pray and think of those who earned Allah's anger, they are thinking of the Jews; and, when they think of those who have gone astray, they think of the Christians. I do not know. Steve_American apparently doesn't either. He's asking a question as far as I can tell.

Godstud wrote:The Jews do this as well(See Goy/Goyim). What has that to do with anything?

Well, it depends upon how you interpret it. Some people think the terms goy, goyim, or gentile are innocuous. In biblical times, however, it implied polytheism and hence a sort of "heathen" status. So it could be construed to be disparaging too.

Godstud wrote:The rest of your post is hilarious anti-islamic ravings, blatant falsehoods, and more of your boy-crush stuff on PM Trudeau. So cute.

I don't believe I said anything anti-Islamic. I certainly want to be clear to Muslims on the forum that in spite of Godstud's peculiar interpretation of language, I did not intend in anyway to offend Muslims, Islam or to express an anti-Islamic view. I did, however, cite someone who took a more militant interpretation here:

me wrote:This guy seems to think that Muslim clerics pray nasty prayers: http://raymondibrahim.com/2011/11/07/mu ... s-of-hate/

Nobody has bothered to provide a substantive response to it. I didn't say I agreed or disagreed with it. I simply posted it to note that Godstud says that there is virtually no evidence of any antipathy in Islam toward Jews or Christians.

Godstud has gone on to say:

Godstud wrote:Note: I can tell @blackjack21 has quite the boy-crush on Trudeau, though. ;)

I do not have a "boy-crush" on Justin Trudeau; although, I would stipulate that he does indeed look rather boyish even though he is a grown man.

Godstud wrote:Still not supporting the OP. Try harder, little man.

The OP is a question, not an assertion of fact. It is asking for answers from people who might know. I'm about 5'9" and 210, so I'm not that tall, and altogether too fat. That's common among Americans, you know.

Godstud wrote:These are prayers by idiots who are not representative of Muslims, and these are individual prayers, and not ones meant for many. Really, you're slacking off, @blackjack21,. Your arguments and posts are pathetic.

Well, let's let the record reflect that you are the one calling some Muslims idiots in this thread, and not me.

Godstud wrote:How is that related to the OP?

The Quran (and the Bible and the Torah) are fairly critical of vices. Fundamentalist Muslims, Christians and Jews take bibilical proscriptions very seriously. Let's envisage an OP where the question is, "I heard that Muslims pray that homosexuals are contemptible, is that true?" Then, if we cite the Quran 1:6, and it says:

The Holy Quran: 1:6 as interpreted in English wrote:Sahih International: Guide us to the straight path -

Pickthall: Show us the straight path,

Yusuf Ali: Show us the straight way,

Shakir: Keep us on the right path.

Muhammad Sarwar: (Lord), guide us to the right path,

Mohsin Khan: Guide us to the Straight Way

Arberry: Guide us in the straight path,

Since modern culture refers to heterosexuals as "straight" and non-heterosexuals otherwise; and, since the Quran condemns sodomy, would it be wrong to say that Muslims praying 5 times a day are also praying to be set on a straight path that does not include homosexuality?

Godstud wrote:Nothing you spoke of supports this fantasy scenario and only demonstrates your hatred of anything Islamic, and your homo-erotic boy-crush on PM Trudeau.

I did not claim to hate Islam, and I do not believe I said anything hateful about Islam; nor did I intend to. My commentary on Justin Trudeau should have been construed as sarcastic, but apparently that was not how you interpreted it.


Godstud wrote:Just for you, @blackjack21. Enjoy.

Thank you. It depicts Trudeau with a native American tattoo. He, and the rest of the Trudeau family, are apparently honorary members of the Haida tribe. It seems Trudeau is quite a fan of other cultures.

Godstud wrote:"It is said..." :lol:

Are you saying that Muslims do not pray the first chapter of the Quran? Is that untrue? Or do you just think it's funny?

Godstud wrote:More Trudeau fan-boy stuff that's off-topic? You must really have the hots for the Canadian PM. :lol:
Are all Americans so infatuated with PM Trudeau?

I just find the Canadian Multicultural Supremacist thing a bit of a counter-intuitive Gordian knot. In my opinion, Justin Trudeau is something of a parody of that vein of thought, although I think he doesn't intend to be a joke.

Godstud wrote:This is an assertion that is sheer fantasy, as no evidence of this has been provided. You still have not provided any evidence that Muslims end prayers with "Christians and Jews are contemptible". The Muslim prayers mentioned do not support this, either.

They mention that Muslims are asking Allah to lead them on the straight path, not the path that angers Allah (as the Jews do) or the path of those who have gone astray (as the Christians have). Some people may interpret that as Muslims deprecating the ways of Jews and Christians as contemptible.


Let me reiterate one of your statements again:
Godstud wrote:The rest of your post is hilarious anti-islamic ravings, blatant falsehoods, and more of your boy-crush stuff on PM Trudeau. So cute.

Keep in mind, I did not write the OP. I did not indicate that I thought Muslims prayed that Jews or Christians were contemptible. Nor did I criticize Islam in any way. Although, I did intend to rile you up with Justin Trudeau's overly-dramatic and seemingly insincere embraces of other cultures and religions. Considering the feelings of Sikhs and Muslims towards each other, I find it utterly peculiar that he embraces both. For some reason, in Western culture that is okay. Yet, if he were to wear a Nazi uniform on one hand and then a Soviet uniform on the other hand, that would bother people in the West for reasons that are beyond me when considered in conjunction with the embrace of two sides of often warring factions in other cultures.

Zamuel wrote:The Quran does have warnings against Jews and Christians who approach Islam with a "Bad attitude" and rightly so. But it recognizes those faiths and their true adherents as benign and worthy of respect.

Zam :angel:

Just for the record, I've never said otherwise.

Justin Trudeau is a cowboy too!

Image
Look! Cowboys and Indians getting along!
Image
And cowboys and black people!
Image

He reminds me of Woody Allen in Zelig...
#14918784
Nothing I said was incorrect. His question was based on a claim. Your reading comprehension is indeed poor.

[quote="blackjack21"]American reading comprehension.[/quote] Yes, your American poor education is showing.
Did you honestly miss this part... [b]"Recently I saw a claim on line that the prayer that all Muslims must recite 5 times a day ends with something like "Christians and Jews are contemptible".[/b] He then asked if it was true, and no one could provide evidence to support that claim.

[quote="blackjack21"]So I looked into the subject matter a bit.[/quote] Yes, and you further provided evidence that this claim isn't true.

No one has provided ANY evidence that the claim/assertion in the OP is true.

[quote="blackjack21"]Since modern culture refers to heterosexuals as "straight" and non-heterosexuals otherwise; and, since the Quran condemns sodomy, would it be wrong to say that Muslims praying 5 times a day are also praying to be set on a straight path that does not include homosexuality?[/quote] There is no evidence that this is correct. You are applying your own[i] spin[/i] to it, and that still has nothing to do with the OP.

[quote="blackjack21"]I do not have a "boy-crush" on Justin Trudeau; although, I would stipulate that he does indeed look rather boyish even though he is a grown man.[/quote] I see your cute "man"-crush of PM Trudeau continues. :lol:

Yes, PM Trudeau's not 70+ years old like Dolt 45. He's in his early 40s. People don't look old when they are not. Good genetics, I guess. What's your point?

[quote="blackjack21"]Justin Trudeau is a cowboy too![/quote] Those were taken at the Calgary Stampede, The Greatest Outdoor Show on Earth. It's really quite an event.
https://www.calgarystampede.com/stampede

[quote="blackjack21"]Although, I did intend to rile you up with Justin Trudeau's overly-dramatic and seemingly insincere embraces of other cultures and religions.[/quote] Mission failed. I saw through your ignorant, uneducated American comments, and infantile trolling.

This thread is not about multiculturalism, either. Stick to the topic.
#14919118
Decky wrote::eh:

Are you joking? Seriously, you can't be serious?

Either we have the "BIG" troll by the toe Decky or this is one ignorant puppy.

Here in the US I'm pretty well traveled and I'm not aware of having ever met a Methodist. I'm sure they're around, but fairly scarce. The Wesleyan influences I do see are mostly educational seminaries and missionary support organizations that are supported by contributions from many protestant denominations.

Zam
#14919122
Zamuel wrote:Either we have the "BIG" troll by the toe Decky or this is one ignorant puppy.

Here in the US I'm pretty well traveled and I'm not aware of having ever met a Methodist. I'm sure they're around, but fairly scarce. The Wesleyan influences I do see are mostly educational seminaries and missionary support organizations that are supported by contributions from many protestant denominations.

Zam


Methodism is the largest single mainline Protestant grouping in the USA, and Wiki speaks of the largest Methodist group thus;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Methodist_Church

Like many other mainline Protestant denominations in the United States, the United Methodist Church has experienced significant membership losses in recent decades. At the time of its formation, the UMC had about 11 million members in nearly 42,000 congregations.[197] In 1975, membership dropped below 10 million for the first time.[197] In 2005, there were about 8 million members in over 34,000 congregations.[197] Membership is concentrated primarily in the Midwest and in the South. Texas has the largest number of members, with about 1 million.[198] The states with the highest membership rates are Oklahoma, Iowa, Mississippi, West Virginia, and North Carolina.[198]


Emphasis in bold. By the way, the reason for the decline in membership? Most of the Clergy are liberal, and have views about reality pretty close to your own....
#14919128
annatar1914 wrote:Methodism is the largest single mainline Protestant grouping in the USA, and Wiki speaks of the largest Methodist group thus; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Methodist_Church

Sorry, no, nice try though. You sure do make a lot of phony mistakes. What your article says is:

"The United Methodist Church, with at least 12 million members as of 2014, is the largest denomination within the wider Methodist movement."

"Within the wider Methodist movement." Not the "largest protestant grouping." That would probably be the Baptists, (around 50 Million of em in the USA.)

The Methodist may have 30% as many members as the Baptists. Their numbers have been falling kind of rapidly as they die out.

Zam - This little piggy: - :lol:
#14919146
Sorry, no, nice try though. You sure do make a lot of phony mistakes.


No, you twist words because you're initially lazy making comments, and then when you're called on it, resort to these mind-numbing exercises...


What your article says is:


"Within the wider Methodist movement." Not the "largest protestant grouping."


See what you did there? I said largest ''mainline Protestant'', not what you claimed I said.



That would probably be the Baptists, (around 50 Million of em in the USA.)


Irrelevant, because this turn in our conversation came when you claimed basically that Methodism was unknown (in America!) in order to cover your ass concerning your historical mistakes about the ''Great Awakening'' in American spiritual history.

The Methodist may have 30% as many members as the Baptists. Their numbers have been falling kind of rapidly as they die out.


So, Methodists do exist though,( in still significant albeit dropping numbers from an attack of liberalism), even if you've never met one? How curious :roll:
#14919169
annatar1914 wrote:No, you twist words

You're busted dude … I don't have to twist any words, you don't even read the articles you post.
Your "informed opinions" about Islam are even worse than your misinformation about American Christianity. Go confess your sins to your priest. He may have a sympathetic ear.

Zam :angel:
#14919229
For what it's worth, I don't think the OP can be blamed for assuming that Muslims finish their prayers with calls for the destruction of Christians and Jews. You need only be reminded of the many memri videos documenting Islamic faith leaders and their frequent calls for the destruction of the aforementioned during religious ceremonies.
#14919316
Zamuel wrote:Either we have the "BIG" troll by the toe Decky or this is one ignorant puppy.

Here in the US I'm pretty well traveled and I'm not aware of having ever met a Methodist. I'm sure they're around, but fairly scarce. The Wesleyan influences I do see are mostly educational seminaries and missionary support organizations that are supported by contributions from many protestant denominations.

Zam


He said he didn't know if there were Methodists in the UK. :roll:

annatar1914 wrote:Are there even any Methodists in the British Isles??


Clearly this is either trolling or demonstration of enormous ignorance.

What religion do people think Wales is? What religion do you think most of the early Labour party were? No one is that foolish, even yanks.
#14919342
Decky wrote:Clearly this is either trolling or demonstration of enormous ignorance. What religion do people think Wales is? What religion do you think most of the early Labour party were? No one is that foolish, even yanks.

Right most of us know there's more going on than Church of England and the Papists, there's Scientology too … :lol: :lol: :lol:

-AND- I'm pretty sure @annatar1914 isn't an American.

Zam
#14919436
Zamuel wrote:You're busted dude … I don't have to twist any words, you don't even read the articles you post.
Your "informed opinions" about Islam are even worse than your misinformation about American Christianity. Go confess your sins to your priest. He may have a sympathetic ear.

Zam :angel:


Which one of us is not addressing the other's points, or lack thereof. Lazy, just lazy, man. You used to do better.
#14922357
Godstud wrote: I still see no evidence that any Muslims end their prayer with, "Christians and Jews are contemptible", so this whole thread is a big "What if" fantasy.

Steve_American wrote: It seems that you are totally correct.
I apologize to you-all for posting this bit of right wing [I assume] nonsense.
I hope you can forgive me and we can move on to find the truth on other questions.

Truly amazing.!!
I posted the above about 60% down page 1; and here we are on page 3 and not one person has even seen that. Well, that is, based on what they wrote here.

I apologized 2 pages ago and still I'm attacked. Are any of you-all Christians who are called upon to forgive sins?
#14922360
@Steve_American I saw it and acknowledge it. It's others who don't, and most are not addressing you anymore, but the Islamophobes who saw the word "Muslim" in your title, and came running to add their spiteful two bits worth.
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