Christmas is coming again.... The Birthday of Jesus.... Do you agree? - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14955697
I'll get ahead of the pack here and post the usual "Was it the real day" thread.

Personally I sincerely believe it was the Birthday of Jesus.



I love this documentary and obviously it supports my position with strong astronomy and a frankly very cool theory.

I disagree strongly with the assertion that because the Bible says "the animals were outside" that somehow that is proof it wasn't Winter. Israel's climate is similar to California and Australia, it is hotter than most other countries and is close to the equator. This means it has warm winters and animals could have indeed been out at night. I think this assertion is frankly dumb and easily believed only by people who live where it snows during winter.

Moreover I believe Jesus was born either during or immediately after Hannukah, the feast of the dedication. Not only it is poetic, the Maccabees revolt is the previous highly significant event in Jewish history and Judah Maccabee is arguably a forerunner to Christ. But the holiday represents a reborn Israel and a Temple at it's height of splendor, God's gift to a reborn physically saved Israel. To me it makes spiritual sense for the Messiah to have been born at the end of it, God's gift to the entire world.

I also believe in Sextus Julius Africanus's Historical dating of the conception of Christ(March 25th) and his subsequent assumable birthday (exactly 9 months later).

I can understand people's complaints such as the whole "was a pagan festival" arguement, but there were so many "Pagan Festivals" in the Roman Religion that no matter what date they agreed on it would have been close to one. Also why focus on "Pagan Festival" when the fact is almost everything in Christianity has a Jewish origin and so the more obvious connection to Hannukah should be accounted for instead.

Remember that Christmas is in fact a multiday(12) holiday officially when we are meant to give small gifts on every day... LIKE HANNUKAH ALSO IS.

I sincerely believe Jesus was born on December 25th and that it was less than a week after Hannukah, or in the last days of Hannukah.
#14956011
Christmas has its roots in pre-Christian festivals celebrated around the winter solstice by Europe's pagan populations. Old solstice traditions have influenced holidays we celebrate now, such as Christmas and Hanukkah. Around 350 AD, Pope Julius I officially declared December 25th to mark the birth of Christ. There was no evidence that was the actual day of birth. Shepherds watch their flock by night during lambing season, which is the spring. The gospel of Luke says: “And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night (Luke 2:8).”
#14956014
ThirdTerm wrote:Christmas has its roots in pre-Christian festivals celebrated around the winter solstice by Europe's pagan populations. Old solstice traditions have influenced holidays we celebrate now, such as Christmas and Hanukkah. Around 350 AD, Pope Julius I officially declared December 25th to mark the birth of Christ. There was no evidence that was the actual day of birth. Shepherds watch their flock by night during lambing season, which is the spring. The gospel of Luke says: “And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night (Luke 2:8).”


Luke also records the following:

Now His parents went to Jerusalem every year at the Feast of the Passover. And when He became twelve, they went up there according to the custom of the Feast;

(Luke 2:41-41 NASB)

Notice it says when He "became" twelve. That sounds very much like what one would say when one has a birthday. After all, He is called the Lamb of God. Why shouldn't He be born with the lambs?
#14956016
ThirdTerm wrote:.Shepherds watch their flock by night during lambing season, which is the spring. The gospel of Luke says: “And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night (Luke 2:8).”


This hypothesis is extremely doubtful for two reasons:

1) This was the first century, and exact shepherding habits of the time are unknown

2) Israel is a hot country, very similar in climate to my own. With very warm winters. Therefore it is unlikely that Shepherds in Israel kept to a rigid schedule and obviously there was less man-made shelter generally in the first century.

Fact: Jesus was born in a Cave.... There was less human made shelters available to people living in the first Century. The Animals are indeed likely to have been outside in winter in Israel with it's Florida/California/Australia type climate.
#14956018
Hindsite wrote:Notice it says when He "became" twelve. That sounds very much like what one would say when one has a birthday. After all, He is called the Lamb of God. Why shouldn't He be born with the lambs?


That is describing his Bar Mitzvah moment when he came "of age". The modern Jewish ceremony which happens on a Jewish boy's 12th Birthday however is a subsiquent development and this doesn't actually indicate Passover was Jesus' birthday nor does it say it wasn't.

Most likely, the "Bar Mitzvah narrative" indicates Jews had to be presented back in the Temple at the next Passover after their 12th birthday. Obviously when the Temple existed.

We can't really know because Bar Mitzvah being directly on the Birthday is a recent development of Rabbinic Judaism. All we can know is that it was indeed his first Century equivalent of a Bar Mitzvah.


It's an interesting point Hindsite. It was indeed his "coming of age" or Bar Mitzvah, but we don't really know if it was his birthday because Jewish Traditions have changed alot.
#14956021
Jerusalem is quite cold in the winter compared with the rest of the country due to the relatively high elevation. You can expect the temperatures in Jerusalem to be around 5º-15º Celsius or 40º-50º Fahrenheit.

www.israel-travel-and-tours.com/jerusalem-weather.html.

Not only would the weather be too cold and rainy that time of year for shepherds to be “out in their fields,” as the gospels say, but the Romans would not have held their census during the winter because it required families to travel back to the father’s hometown to register. Joseph’s family hailed from Bethlehem.
#14956024
Hindsite wrote:Jerusalem is quite cold in the winter compared with the rest of the country due to the relatively high elevation. You can expect the temperatures in Jerusalem to be around 5º-15º Celsius or 40º-50º Fahrenheit.

http://www.israel-travel-and-tours.com/ ... ather.html.

Not only would the weather be too cold and rainy that of year for shepherds to be “out in their fields,” as the gospels say, but the Romans would not have held their census during the winter because it required families to travel back to the father’s hometown to register. Joseph’s family hailed from Bethlehem.


The Roman Census actually was most likely Empire wide or encompassed several regions. They would not have specifically cared about its exact timing in Israel. Partly because they usually went for months(even years) on end anyway and were announced well in advance.

Certainly a Roman Census could have been held in Autumn-Winter, or Winter-Spring.

Also remember that Jesus was born in a manger in A CAVE (not a wooden shed like most people incorrectly believe)... Realistically the Animals most likely had even less shelter than he did, and during winter too, if the Inn keeper thought a Cave nornally used by the animals, was appropriate for a human family.
#14956041
An accurate translation of Luke 2:42, like is given in the New American Standard Bible, clearly tells us that Jesus became twelve at the time of the Passover.

One only becomes a certain age on one's birthday. Therefore, it seems clear to me that Jesus, the Lamb of God, was born at the time of the Passover.

We also know that the Lamb of God was sacrificed for our sins on Passover. He came into the world to call sinners to repentance and to give Himself as a sacrifice once and all for our sins.

(Mathew 1:20-21 NASB)
But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”

So isn't it more logical for God to bring His Son into the world to save his people from their sins on the Passover, a Jewish holiday, when perfect lambs were needed to be sacrificed each year for the sins of Jewish people, rather than at the time of a pagan sun holiday.

(Hebrews 10:8-10 NASB)
After saying above, “Sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You have not desired, nor have You taken pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the Law), then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will.” He takes away the first in order to establish the second. By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
#14956043
Atheists aren't allowed in here or whatever, but this thread is an invitation.

Jesus is a fictional character.

I do mean that.

There's no evidence that guy even existed, and I err on the side of he didn't.

So, I'm giving it a no, it isn't 'Jesus'' birthday. It is a holiday which is based on the appropriation of Pagan beliefs, maybe by the Romans for reasons having to do with the furtherance of their state religion.
#14956044
fuser wrote:Can anyone tell me, why the hell does it even matters? What will change if Jesus was born on 25th or not for the faithful, its a genuine question btw.

It matters only that Jesus was born and He gave His life as a sacrifice to save us from our sins.

(John 3:16 NASB)
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
#14956052
fuser wrote:Can anyone tell me, why the hell does it even matters? What will change if Jesus was born on 25th or not for the faithful, its a genuine question btw.


It doesn't change anything... It's one of those silly "Kirk VS Picard Religious Version" arguements.

So isn't it more logical for God to bring His Son into the world to save his people from their sins on the Passover, a Jewish holiday, when perfect lambs were needed to be sacrificed each year for the sins of Jewish people, rather than at the time of a pagan sun holiday.


It's just as logical for the Messiah to have been born during or immediately after the Holiday of
dedication, a time of renewal when God sends new light into the world.....

Here is a beautiful description of the meaning of Hannukah and it's symbolic-spiritual relationship with the traditional birthdate of Christ:

https://www1.cbn.com/hanukkah-light-two-faiths

I sincerely believe Jesus WAS born on December 25th. And that date may have been Hannukah itself or the exact week later.

I think some Christians refuse to the see the beautiful symbolism in the Messiah coming into the world during(or immediately after) the Festival of Lights, the festival of rededication and of new beginnings. God sent his only son during the time of new beginnings....

Which not surprisingly was also the previous major event in Jewish History prior to the coming of the Messiah.
Last edited by colliric on 23 Oct 2018 12:33, edited 1 time in total.
#14956197
I think the day that the Church, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, has determined is sufficient for me.

I will celebrate Christmas, according to the Latin calendar, as the day of Christ's birth.

Hindsite wrote:But at least, some of us can agree that Jesus was born at some time at some place.


Indeed. He Reigns!
#14956308
Victoribus Spolia wrote:I think the day that the Church, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, has determined is sufficient for me.

I will celebrate Christmas, according to the Latin calendar, as the day of Christ's birth.

Yes, I will continue to celebrate it on December 25. I also believe Jesus was crucified on Wednesday instead of Friday. But I see no need to make a big fuss about it. HalleluYah

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