I Reject, I Affirm. ''Raising the Black Flag'' in an Age of Devilry. - Page 8 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15017892
noemon wrote:Sophia is a female, not male.


In 1st Corinthians chapter 1 verse 24, St. Paul calls Christ ''the Power of God and the Wisdom of God''.

From the Orthodox Study Bible footnotes on Proverbs chapter 8;

''Wisdom is Christ Himself...'', etc... And this is backed up by Saint Athanasius and other Fathers.

The Holy Wisdom of God is Christ.
#15017939
annatar1914 wrote:@Hong Wu




No, they weren't a ''canonization'' of ''contemporary 'Byzantine' folk stories'', nor is it fair to describe what was the Eastern division of the Roman Empire in terms invented by 18th century Western Scholars.

People don't live and die by ''folk stories'', but by Who and by what they determine to be true.




Wisdom, or ''Sophia'', is actually the male pre-Incarnate Son of God, the Word or ''Logos'' of God, not a ''Goddess''.




Gnosticism was rightfully condemned, speaking of ''folk tales'' full of all manner of Supernal beings, as just so much imaginary and often extreme matter-hating nonsense, but it resurfaces from time to time in the West.

Speaking of which, I am reminded again of Mormonism, and Israel, and Islam, and tying it all in with the primary considerations of this thread.... That shall be the subject of my next post, promise ;)

Well, I'm not sure that I can agree with you on some of this. It does broach another related subject though that I have been thinking about recently. If I am understanding Orthodox Christianity correctly, the Logos refers to Christ and the Bible (the word of God), correct? In western philosophy, Logos is often interpreted as being reason itself.

I was thinking that the decline of the west might be explained like this: if the Logos is both God and reason, yet reason has become materialism, this would mean by its own terms that God is no longer God. This is why "God is dead".

Relatedly, I've argued for a form of didactic materialism which I believe might preserve the western Logos and which I think is prevalent in new right argumentation, yet due to widespread hostility within western academia and leftist censorship, it cannot progress beyond the edges of the internet.

Getting back to the debate as specific to Orthodox Christianity. As Noemon mentioned, Sophia seems to be explicitly female and I view this as an acknowledgement of pagan philosophical concepts. A similar issue exists in early versions of the Qur'an where they originally allowed worship of some Arab pagan Goddesses but then they changed it later after they realized it was inconsistent with monotheism. Yet Islam is also obviously influenced by Arabian pagan philosophy, as well as apparently by Platonism.

This is also where I typically split with Christians. I have no problem with viewing Christianity as a development of western metaphysical philosophy but most Christians (both western and Orthodox) want to view it as a perfect revelation.
#15017980
@Hong Wu ;

Well, I'm not sure that I can agree with you on some of this.


It appears that it's likewise with me, I'm afraid.

It does broach another related subject though that I have been thinking about recently. If I am understanding Orthodox Christianity correctly, the Logos refers to Christ and the Bible (the word of God), correct? In western philosophy, Logos is often interpreted as being reason itself.


They're not exclusive, for Reason, as it turns out, is the Supra-Personal Triune God of the Christian Faith, and nothing that is True is alien to Truth Himself.

I was thinking that the decline of the west might be explained like this: if the Logos is both God and reason, yet reason has become materialism, this would mean by its own terms that God is no longer God. This is why "God is dead".


The ''god of the philosophers'' happens to not exist, to not be the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Nobody could truly believe in their hearts and souls in the ''God'' of Deism and Pantheism, practically it's the same as belief in no god at all.

Relatedly, I've argued for a form of didactic materialism which I believe might preserve the western Logos and which I think is prevalent in new right argumentation, yet due to widespread hostility within western academia and leftist censorship, it cannot progress beyond the edges of the internet.


Yes, sorry, unfortunately I feel compelled to not go for that set of concepts either.

Getting back to the debate as specific to Orthodox Christianity. As Noemon mentioned, Sophia seems to be explicitly female and I view this as an acknowledgement of pagan philosophical concepts.


It isn't an acknowledgement of any such thing, for that which is false is parasitic on that which is true and real, and ''Sophia'', meaning ''Wisdom'', is specifically the Second Person of the Christian Godhead, as both St. Paul and the Orthodox Fathers agree. Whatever nonsense from Gnostics and Pagans presents itself in an attempt to detract from that is really not my concern, as I hew to the truth revealed and preserved in Holy Tradition, Holy Scripture.


A similar issue exists in early versions of the Qur'an where they originally allowed worship of some Arab pagan Goddesses but then they changed it later after they realized it was inconsistent with monotheism. Yet Islam is also obviously influenced by Arabian pagan philosophy, as well as apparently by Platonism.


Apples and Oranges.

This is also where I typically split with Christians. I have no problem with viewing Christianity as a development of western metaphysical philosophy but most Christians (both western and Orthodox) want to view it as a perfect revelation.


I think there's a certain special kind of outrageous temerity in having non-Christians try to tell Christians what form and content their ''Christianity'' should be. I'm not abiding by that. No, Christianity is personal, relational, salvific. to take away from that is to take away all It's meaning.

No thanks. So it seems that our conversation then is at an obligatory standoff at this point, as we're living and thinking in two worlds, only one of which is real however. I'm taking Pascal's Wager and then some, and retaining my Faith.
#15018057
@Victoribus Spolia, @Political Interest, @Hindsite , and others;

As promised, I'm going to make a few comments about Israel and Islam and, of all things, Mormonism, and what I see as the future in what is an increasingly Eschatological mindset.

Some quick points to make for reference to frame this narrative properly;

1. Israel as per numerous prophesies in even Islam, has returned to the Holy Land, it's a ''done deal'' as they say.

2. This state of affairs cannot go on indefinitely in relation to the world of Islam.

3. Mormonism will increasingly be a world factor as time goes on.

On this third part then, on Mormonism, why would I make such a statement? Because Mormonism is perfectly situated to inherit the mantle from the decrepit and almost dead Roman Catholic Church that Mormonism came from via Protestantism, as the relatively new but quite native spiritual foundation of the Western/Faustian/Frankish civilization that I have been discussing the past 8 pages on this thread!

So I'm going to make a series of predictions concerning Mormonism. Mormonism will take over America, for the simple reason that increasingly America and Mormonism will be synonymous and America will be increasingly dependent on Mormonism for it's survival as a society and a nation-state.

And as Western Europe will be increasingly dependent on America for survival, Mormonism will encounter extreme growth and success there also, displacing all other sects including Islam from public life there.

I'm not endorsing all this but I see it as happening. So for now this is where I leave matters, and I'll post further reflections on why I believe this and the consequences that flow from it as well.
#15018449
Since I made this comment;

On this third part then, on Mormonism, why would I make such a statement? Because Mormonism is perfectly situated to inherit the mantle from the decrepit and almost dead Roman Catholic Church that Mormonism came from via Protestantism, as the relatively new but quite native spiritual foundation of the Western/Faustian/Frankish civilization that I have been discussing the past 8 pages on this thread!


It would do for me to actually back this up intellectually. First, I'll point one at this Wiki Article on Mormon Cosmology;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_cosmology

Where one can read concerning the Mormon concept of ''Exaltation'' that;

In Mormonism, the concept of divinity centers around an idea of "exaltation" and "eternal progression": mortals themselves may become gods and goddesses in the afterlife, be rulers of their own heavenly kingdoms, have spirit children, and increase in power and glory forever. Mormons understand that there are many gods and goddesses in the cosmos, including a Heavenly Mother.[6] However, the three persons of Godhead (God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost) are to be the only objects of worship.


And;


In LDS doctrine, the goal of each adherent is to receive "exaltation" through the atonement of Jesus. If a person receives exaltation, they inherit all the attributes of God the Father, including godhood.[7] Mormons believe that these people will become gods and goddesses in the afterlife, and will have "all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge".[8] Mormons teach that exalted people will live with their earthly families and will also "have spirit children":[9] their posterity will grow forever.


With the Faustian/Western civilization's foundations of evolution and progress, mankind gradually becoming as gods in an eternal and infinite cosmos, this theology and cosmology is ideal for the defense of Western civilization in the future, as persons in Western society grasp something beyond their secular materialism but yet very relatable to their cultural ''self-awareness''... If you could call it that. Here we have a spiritual worldview that teaches that God did not create the universe ''Ex Nihilo'', but that Matter and Intellect and Spirit have always existed from eternity. This will be perfectly in line with the universe-imaginings of the physicists and mathematicians, and when we have ''Alien contact''/''Disclosure'', Mormonism will be well prepared to take spiritual advantage of the crisis then.

With America being the solipsistic spiritual child that it is,immature and unreflective, Mormonism will be America's future primary religion because to a great degree, America is Mormonism's religion. No other belief system caters to the American sense of cultural and spiritual self than this belief system, nor can, so over time this will indeed truly come to be. Because, at a time of increasing crisis and doubt, a prop will be needed, desperately so, that other beliefs are not integrally and structurally capable of providing.

And with Western Europe increasingly coming under pressure from within and from without from Islam/Third World Migration, Europe will increasingly become even more dependent on the United States. And not just militarily or economically; America will 'Americanize' Europe, shoring up the decaying West with a religion that will with it's optimistic dynamism, gradually exponentially increasingly evoke in the cultural collective European memory, the lost grandeur once possessed the dying Roman Catholic Church, which is the parent of the West. Only in Eastern Europe and Eurasia/Russia will Orthodox Christianity be an effective against this growing flood (as during this time, Russia will increasingly revolt against westernization in a definitive break from the trajectory of Russian history begun in the 1600's).
#15019327
Israel and Islam.

Setting to one side for now the phenomenon of Mormonism-the world's fastest growing religion after Islam if I remember correctly-the stage must also be set for Israel and for Islam.

As I said earlier, Islam as much as predicts that the Jews would return to the Holy Land, although for centuries prior to the rise of Islam, the Orthodox Fathers were saying the same thing so it was kind of in the air at that time in history.

And then you have Israel as it presently exists, totally dependent on the West ultimately. If the West is transformed, one cannot expect Israel to not be transformed as well... For a Mormon Temple they say will be built in Jerusalem, and unlike all others it will have a throne in the Holy of Holies for the Mormon ''Jesus'' to sit upon...

Looks like another round of heretical ''Crusades'' and Jihads will be happening.
#15020132
I decided to gather some quotes from Mormon leaders, Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, concerning their views on America, the Constitution, and intent to govern first America and then the World. First, Joseph Smith;

You will see the constitution of the United States almost destroyed. It will hang like a thread.... A terrible revolution will take place in the land of America.... [T]he land will be left without a Supreme Government,... [Mormonism] will have gathered strength, sending out Elders to gather the honest in heart... to stand by the Constitution of the United States.... In these days... God will set up a Kingdom, never to be thrown down.... [T]he whole of America will be made the Zion of God.


And;

Hence we say, that the Constitution of the United States is a glorious standard; it is founded in the wisdom of God. It is a heavenly banner; it is to all those who are privileged with the sweets of liberty, like the cooling shades and refreshing waters of a great rock in a thirsty and weary land. It is like a great tree under whose branches men from every clime can be shielded from the burning rays of the sun.


And;

I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.


And Brigham Young shows Mormonism is entirely of the Western civilization, modernist and progressive, believing in evolution really from it's beginning (he still had to be careful given the protestant background of most Mormons);

In these respects we differ from the Christian world, for our religion will not clash with or contradict the facts of science in any particular... whether the Lord found the earth empty and void, whether he made it out of nothing or out of the rude elements; or whether he made it in six days or in as many millions of years, is and will remain a matter of speculation in the minds of men unless he give revelation on the subject. If we understood the process of creation there would be no mystery about it, it would be all reasonable and plain, for there is no mystery except to the ignorant.


And again, on evolutionary exaltation to ''godhead'';

All intelligent beings who are crowned with crowns of glory, immortality, and eternal lives must pass through every ordeal appointed for intelligent beings to pass through, to gain their glory and exaltation. Every calamity that can come upon mortal beings will be suffered ... to prepare them to enjoy the presence of the Lord. ... Every trial and experience you have passed through is necessary for your salvation.


Brigham Young on the US Constitution;

The present Constitution, with a few alterations of a trifling nature, is just as good as we want; and if it is sustained on this land of Joseph, it will be done by us and our posterity.
Brigham Young


It seems bizarre perhaps, but if anyone is to preserve America and Western Civilization, it would almost necessarily have to be those people to whom America and it's foundational documents are a integral part of their religion, their everyday culture, which foundational documents are themselves a distillation of the unique Western cultural heritage.
#15020901
For those unfamiliar with Mormonism and Mormon folklore, there is a particular prophesy attributed to their ''Prophet'' Joseph Smith (some 50 years after the alleged conversation took place, not official doctrine but popular among Mormons) that reveals if nothing else the geopolitical fears and fantasies of this very unusual religious group, the ''White Horse Prophesy'';


While this conversation was going on we stood by his south wicket gate in a triangle. Turning to me, he said, “I want to tell you something of the future. I will speak in a parable like unto John the Revelator. You will go to the Rocky Mountains and you will be a great and mighty people established there, which I will call the White Horse of peace and safety.” When the Prophet said, “You will see it,” I said, “Where will you be at that time?” He said, “I shall never go there. Your enemies will continue to follow you with persecutions and they will make obnoxious laws against you in Congress to destroy the White Horse, but you will have a friend or two to defend you and throw out the worst parts of the law so they will not hurt you so much. You must continue to petition Congress all the time, but they will treat you like strangers and aliens and they will not give you your rights, but will govern you with strangers and commissioners. You will see the Constitution of the United States almost destroyed. It will hang like a thread as fine as a silk fiber.”

At that time the Prophet’s countenance became sad, because as he said, “I love the Constitution; it was made by the inspiration of God; and it will be preserved and saved by the efforts of the White Horse, and by the Red Horse who will combine in its defense. The White Horse will find the mountains full of minerals and they will become rich (at this time, it must be remembered, the precious metals were not known to exist in either the Rocky Mountains or California). You will see silver piled up in the streets. You will see the gold shoveled up like sand. Gold will be of little value then, even in a mercantile capacity; for the people of the world will have something else to do in seeking for salvation. The time will come when the banks of every nation will fall and only two places will be safe where people can deposit their gold and treasure. This place will be the White Horse and England’s vaults.

A terrible revolution will take place in the land of America, such as has never been seen before; for the land will be left without a Supreme Government, and every specie of wickedness will be practiced rampantly in the land.
Father will be against son and son against father; mother against daughter and daughter against mother. The most terrible scenes of bloodshed, murder and rape that have ever been imagined or looked upon will take place. People will be taken from the earth and there will be peace and love only in the Rocky Mountains. This will cause many hundreds of thousands of the honest in heart of the world to gather there, not because they would be Saints, but for safety and because they will be so numerous that you will be in danger of famine, but not for want of seed, time and harvest, but because of so many to be fed. Many will come with bundles under their arms to escape the calamities for there will be no escape except only by escaping and fleeing to Zion. Those that come to you will try to keep the laws and be one with you for they will see your unity and the greatness of your organization.

The Turkish Empire of the Crescent will be the first power to be disputed, for freedom must be given for the Gospel to be preached in the Holy Land. The Lord took of the best blood of the nations and planted them on the small islands now called England and Great Britain and gave them power in the nations for a thousand years and their power will continue with them that they may keep the balance of power; and they will keep Russia from sweeping her power over the world. England and France are now bitter enemies but they will be allied together and be united to keep Russia from conquering the world.

The two popes, Greek and Catholic, will eventually come together in their decline and be united. The Protestant Religions do not know how much they are indebted to Henry VIII for throwing off the Pope’s bill and establishing the Protestant faith. He was the only monarch who could do so at that time and he did it because the nation was at his back to sustain him. One of the peculiar features in England is the established Red-coat; a uniform making so remarkable a target to shoot at, and yet they have conquered wherever they have gone. The reason for this will be known to them some day as red is seen in a different color threading through under all history. The lion and the unicorn of England comes from there being so much blood of Israel in the nation.

While the terrible things of which I have mentioned are going on, England will be neutral until it becomes so inhuman that she will interfere to stop the shedding of blood and history will be more properly understood. England and France will unite together to make peace, not to subdue the nations. She will find this nation so broken up and so many claiming government, till there will be no reasonable government. Then it will appear to the other nations, or powers, as though England had taken possession of the country. The Black Horse will flee to the invaders and will join them for they have fear of becoming slaves again; knowing that England did not believe in slavery, they will flee to them that they believe will make them safe. Armed with British bayonets, the doings of the Black Horse will be terrible.” Here the Prophet said that he could not bear to look longer upon the scenes as shown to him in vision and he asked the Lord to close the scenes.Continuing, he said:

England the Germanies, Norway, Denmark, Switzerland, Holland and Belgium have a considerable amount of the blood of Israel among the people which must be gathered out. Those nations will submit to the nations of God. England will be the last of the nations to surrender, but when she does she will do it as a whole in comparison as she threw off the Catholic power. The nobility knows that the gospel is true, but it has not pomp enough, and grandeur and influence for them to yet embrace it. They are proud and will not acknowledge the Kingdom of God or come into it until they see the power it will have. Peace and safety in the Rocky Mountains will be protected by the Guardians, the White and Red Horses.

The coming of the Messiah among his people will be so natural that only those who see him will know that he has come, but he will come and give his laws unto Zion and minister unto his people. This will not be his coming in the clouds of Heaven to take vengeance on the wicked of the world.
”“The temple in Jackson county, Missouri, will be built in that generation. The saints will think that there will not be time to build it, but with all the help you can receive, you can put up a great temple quickly. You will have all the gold, silver and precious stones you need, for these things will only be for the beautifying of the temple. Also, all the skilled mechanics you want and the Ten Tribes of Israel will help build it. When you see this land bound with iron, you may look forward to Jackson county.”At this point, he made a pause, and looking up as though the vision were still in view, he said: “There is a land beyond the Rocky Mountains that will be invaded by the heathen Chinese unless great care and protection be given.”

Speaking of the heathen nations, he said: “Where there is no law there is no condemnation; this will apply to them. Power will be given to the White Horse to rebuke the nations afar off, and you obey it, for the laws go forth from Zion. The last great struggle that Zion will ever have to contend with will be when the whole of America will be made the Zion of God. Those opposing will be called Gog and Magog. The nations of the earth will be led by the Russian Czar and his power will be great, but all opposition will be overcome and this land will be the Zion of our God. Amen.


So here we have prophesies attributed to Joseph Smith the Mormon Prophet, which indicate that Mormonism will take over America in a counter-revolution after a revolution almost destroys the United States. We have prophesy of Racial conflict (White, Black, and Red ''Horses'') and World Wars involving the Chinese and Turks, etc... And with all this a belief that Western Europe/the White Race (particularly and eventually Great Britain) is of the Tribes of Israel and will become Mormon in faith, the European Elites coming into Mormonism once it's proved it's material power and grandeur and wealth it will have by then. Orthodoxy and the Roman Catholic Church uniting in their prophesied decline, and the Russian Tsar heading up the non-Mormon nations and opposing this American Mormon Zion empire as the ''Gog and Magog'' of Mormon versions of Scripture...

Wow, okay...

But this shows something of the LDS mindset likely in the future, as in my opinion Mormonism really will become very powerful in the America and Europe of the future.
#15021070
Hong Wu wrote:Sounds like he was talking about all of the Chinese buying land in California, and Putin is our leader? :lol:


Certainly, it comes from an aspect of Western Civilization that is very fearful of non-Western entities, fearful and desirous of conquest and assimilation either way. And that's why it appears to me that the future will find this religion-Mormonism-increasingly identified with and drawing together the notions of Western Civilization, the White Race, Capitalism, and America and it's unique political institutions and founding documents.

At least to me, this idea of mine doesn't appear to be so strange after all.
#15021636
Israel/The Holy Land/Palestine

Having covered some of the not too distant future trajectory of Western/''Faustian'' Civilization and my predicted rise of Mormonism as the West's future religion, and having covered somewhat on this and other threads the future of Islam and the ''Magian'' Civilization, it remains to discuss a little as promised my views on Israel/the Holy Land/Palestine...

It should be obvious that Israel cannot survive as a nation state, and definitely must eventually be entirely ''Jewish'' or entirely ''Democratic'', because Israel cannot be both. ''Palestine'' too is a fish out of water and will be either secular or it will be a Muslim state, and being a Muslim state could not tolerate Israel's existence for very long. Given human nature and the nature of Islam though, the Islamic threat will not manifest until the ISIS/Al-Qaida types have conquered the Islamic world. This will take some time, but it will absolutely happen.

Therefore, Israel has few choices but to draw the West further into conflict in the Middle East, providing immediate security against foes like Iran and the Shia organizations like Hezbollah at the expense of overlooking even more dangerous existential threats like ISIS and al-Qaida, and in seeing her enter what I predict will be a most curious relationship with the Mormon religion, with fateful consequences.
#15022530
annatar1914 wrote:Israel/The Holy Land/Palestine

Having covered some of the not too distant future trajectory of Western/''Faustian'' Civilization and my predicted rise of Mormonism as the West's future religion, and having covered somewhat on this and other threads the future of Islam and the ''Magian'' Civilization, it remains to discuss a little as promised my views on Israel/the Holy Land/Palestine...

It should be obvious that Israel cannot survive as a nation state, and definitely must eventually be entirely ''Jewish'' or entirely ''Democratic'', because Israel cannot be both. ''Palestine'' too is a fish out of water and will be either secular or it will be a Muslim state, and being a Muslim state could not tolerate Israel's existence for very long. Given human nature and the nature of Islam though, the Islamic threat will not manifest until the ISIS/Al-Qaida types have conquered the Islamic world. This will take some time, but it will absolutely happen.

Therefore, Israel has few choices but to draw the West further into conflict in the Middle East, providing immediate security against foes like Iran and the Shia organizations like Hezbollah at the expense of overlooking even more dangerous existential threats like ISIS and al-Qaida, and in seeing her enter what I predict will be a most curious relationship with the Mormon religion, with fateful consequences.


Well, after reading my own posts on the subject of Israel, the distinction between facts and truths being a subtle one that I cannot hold any longer. Things fall from their own evil, I must admit, and nations are ultimately judged by factors stemming from wealth and the concentration of power into oligarchies... Which is in turn related to the moral decadence or vitality of a people. So not only will Israel not survive as a political entity, I guess that it should not either. This should be qualified by stating that Jews should always have their home in the Holy Land, safe.

And further reflection which led me to suggest Mormonism as the replacement religion of the West, I'm letting that idea go. No, I think that a massive revival of Roman Catholicism worldwide (even and especially in Europe) should be expected. The Elites already have a known entity, already integral to their existence as they are, ready at hand in the Vatican.
#15023268
annatar1914 wrote:
And further reflection which led me to suggest Mormonism as the replacement religion of the West, I'm letting that idea go. No, I think that a massive revival of Roman Catholicism worldwide (even and especially in Europe) should be expected. The Elites already have a known entity, already integral to their existence as they are, ready at hand in the Vatican.


I made a judgement too quickly, in ceasing to consider Mormonism as the native but new replacement religion of the Franks, the Western/''Faustian'' Civilization. It came to me in a flash, reflecting on a figure of Mormon/LDS theology-cosmology, the ''Heavenly Mother'';

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavenly_ ... (Mormonism)

Because this figure of this Goddess, this Divine Being close to the Godhead, is at the heart of Western Culture, and would appeal to it's Roman Catholic origins. Roman Catholicism is imploding, while Mormonism is the second fastest growing religion in the world, with ambitions to lead the Western world. Muslims are right; the West is at it's core Polytheistic, and will someday make the ''necessary'' adjustments to maintain that set of beliefs.
#15023495
It is likely pregnant with meaning in my assertion that Mormonism will be the West's future religion, that Mormonism parallels Islam in certain features, and also parallels the source of Western Christianity, Roman Catholicism, in places also.

First, like Islam, Mormonism is an allegedly prophetically revealed religion, with a prophet who receives a divine message at the hands of an angel. Also as in Islam but even more so, polygamy becomes an issue with Mormonism, among other doctrines. Finally in regards to parallels with Islam, there is a dynamism of growth involved in the spread of Mormonism that gravely concerns non-Mormons.

Muslims would be shocked by anything beyond this surface comparison, for Mormon theology and cosmology is definitely and explicitly polytheistic by Muslim standards. They could well point to western mankind and (rightfully in my opinion) say that the Westerner has always as a culture strove to become gods and goddesses inhabiting all the worlds in the Cosmos, had notions of progress and evolution and transformation into divine beings, that Mormonism has the virtue of being honest about what the West truly believes at least. And there is something to that, I'll admit, given that I never followed that myself and found myself in the haven of Orthodox Christianity.

Secondarily, Mormonism also resembles the Roman Catholicism that indirectly gave it birth, via Protestantism. While taking some of the forms of protestantism, Mormons in their Ecclesiology resemble the Roman Church in their devotion and obedience to their authoritative hierarchy, which adapts by an alleged process of more or less continuous revelation from God.

Now, one might say that the claims of the Book of Mormon and other Mormon Scriptures are absurd and non-historical, that it's a work of fiction about an imagined Ancient America, and that this absurdity is the weak spot of Mormonism. On the contrary, people are not historians, and the tale gives a grandeur that amplifies a mythology that gives America the status of being the center of all human history...And European Mankind/the Israelites/the White peoples. History will show that to most this will not matter, and it will all be believed because like Islam, Mormonism has a creed that is easy to follow and for all that, a complete way of life...
#15023534
The other devilish attraction for Western man is that the Mormon ''God'' is very relatable to him. He's flesh and blood, biological in some way. He has a physical realm, located at a place in the Cosmos called ''Kolob''. He didn't create the Universe's matter, he arranges it as the best of Artificers. He is Omniscient in that He has learned everything, he is in other words, the ultimate scientist and technician, to be imitated, pretty much in his own progressive evolution to Godhead. And this process goes on all over the Universe, according to the Mormon teachings. He's an Extraterrestrial of the most powerful sort, to them, hailing from this alien world.

Some might say, doesn't this resemble somewhat your own theistic materialism? It does only to a degree, as the false often resembles the truth to a degree. And I think that this will become even clearer as the times of the Great Apostasy or Great Deception appear. To me Creation is Creation, is Physical. God Himself is beyond description, Transcendent to His Creation as well as Immanent, Three Persons in One God, Spirit. But I am coming to believe that major false revelations are being prepared that no matter how unlikely, even the best of us might be fooled if we are not careful.

I am predicting times of great confusion in America and the world, and a spiritual void that will be filled to a point with Mormonism and Islam. This is the world that the faithful Christian must navigate.
#15025425
annatar1914 wrote:The other devilish attraction for Western man is that the Mormon ''God'' is very relatable to him. He's flesh and blood, biological in some way. He has a physical realm, located at a place in the Cosmos called ''Kolob''. He didn't create the Universe's matter, he arranges it as the best of Artificers. He is Omniscient in that He has learned everything, he is in other words, the ultimate scientist and technician, to be imitated, pretty much in his own progressive evolution to Godhead. And this process goes on all over the Universe, according to the Mormon teachings. He's an Extraterrestrial of the most powerful sort, to them, hailing from this alien world.

Some might say, doesn't this resemble somewhat your own theistic materialism? It does only to a degree, as the false often resembles the truth to a degree. And I think that this will become even clearer as the times of the Great Apostasy or Great Deception appear. To me Creation is Creation, is Physical. God Himself is beyond description, Transcendent to His Creation as well as Immanent, Three Persons in One God, Spirit. But I am coming to believe that major false revelations are being prepared that no matter how unlikely, even the best of us might be fooled if we are not careful.

I am predicting times of great confusion in America and the world, and a spiritual void that will be filled to a point with Mormonism and Islam. This is the world that the faithful Christian must navigate.


So how again does this relate politically to America and the Western World?

The West is absolutely dependent upon the United States for it's existence, America being the strategic center of gravity of this Western world, and the primary reserve of vitality for those who are fighting for the West.

America is at a crisis, a crisis of belief in that many even in America now do not know or understand or believe in the principles by which America is supposed to live and be governed by. America can only lead the West if there is a return to those basic principles, which are actually those of a civic religion.

But while there are segments of the American population that are somewhat aligned with those principles, there are none who literally have the faith in ''Americanism'', except one religion... Mormonism.

Therefore, for the West to survive, it seems likely that America will have to be inculcated (or re-inculcated) with the tenets of a civic religion to bind citizens together in a social glue, which motivating force can only come from the Mormons. As a consequence of this dawning realization, the Elites will turn favorably to the Mormons as a kind of Praetorian Guard or religious order of knighthood to borrow an example from the West's cultural history, in order to consolidate if not regain the West's favored position in the world.

This will be a West that regards the US Constitution and Declaration of Independence as divinely inspired as Holy Scripture. Likewise, given the influence of the Mormon Right such as W. Cleon Skousen and others upon Mormonism, a Minarchist/Libertarian form of Capitalism will likewise be held as the Divinely ordained natural order of the world, and fiercely defended.
#15025433
@annatar1914
I think it quite unlikely that Mormonism will spread much further than it is today.
As much as I like some of the practical aspects of that religion, like keeping a stock of food for two years at any time, no smoking and no alcohol, I found the story of that religion, of how it came to be, when, and the "proof" of it all, pretty transparently charlatanesque.

When they came to enlighten me when I was still a student, I heard the story about the angels that brought the golden book for the first time, and I asked where the book was now. Oh, they took it back, bummer.
That fellow Joseph Smith does not sound like a prophet at all. A nobody, a nincompoop.

It is much easier to believe fairy tales that happened two thousand years ago than new ones barely from our grandfather's father time.
#15025671
@Ter, you replied that ;


I think it quite unlikely that Mormonism will spread much further than it is today.


I disagree, for the reasons I gave earlier in the thread; the need in a society in the Imperial phase of decline to have a state/civic religion that fits with the needs of the Elites in relation to the 'external and internal proletariat', as Arnold Toynbee might have put it.

In Western Civilization, a particular religion that believes in and worships Extraterrestrial Gods who are the most advanced Scientists, Intellectuals, and Technicians possible (An Alien Civilization that would be about Stage V on the Kardashev Scale of hypothetical development), that also believes that they will evolve into these Gods themselves, this religion is very well adapted to the conceits and Faustian hubris of our Modern Western Civilization, is it not?



As much as I like some of the practical aspects of that religion, like keeping a stock of food for two years at any time, no smoking and no alcohol, I found the story of that religion, of how it came to be, when, and the "proof" of it all, pretty transparently charlatanesque.


On the contrary, although I agree that it is rooted in falsehoods, I have discussed with American Evangelical Protestants that the Book of Mormon's story of an Ancient America central to Humankind and God alike in it's history to be almost hypnotically compelling to them. This combined with what is already a culture rampant with American Exceptionalism, and you have something significant there...

When they came to enlighten me when I was still a student, I heard the story about the angels that brought the golden book for the first time, and I asked where the book was now. Oh, they took it back, bummer.
That fellow Joseph Smith does not sound like a prophet at all. A nobody, a nincompoop.


All real prophets are not particularly significant persons either. Now as to the plates, one might think that this would set off alarm bells, but it doesn't. What it presents is a test of faith, of loyalty, of believing instead of being a skeptical sort that questions everything.

It is much easier to believe fairy tales that happened two thousand years ago than new ones barely from our grandfather's father time.


Is it? I am not sure that you understand the whole belief thing very well then, particularly when you are addressing someone who very much believes in ''fairy tales'' that yet somehow incongruously ''happened'' two thousand years ago, myself...


------------------------------------------[email protected]Hong Wu , you asked me this question;

''Do you have any sources on this Mormon conception of God as having not created matter? It sounds kind of non-contextual.''


I do not have the exact citation, but it's all over the Mormon ''Doctrine and Covenants'' book they regard as Scripture.
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