I Reject, I Affirm. ''Raising the Black Flag'' in an Age of Devilry. - Page 5 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14996246
Potemkin wrote:Indeed, but I can't pay my bills with dead leaves I've gathered from my back garden. What is it that gives those specific bits of paper, plastic or base metal their value?

People give it value because other people give it value, there is an element of fashion to it, but the fundamentals drive it, even fiat money has some intrinsic advantages which grant it some credible value.
#14996247
SolarCross wrote:People give it value because other people give it value, there is an element of fashion to it, but the fundamentals drive it, even fiat money has some intrinsic advantages which grant it some credible value.

In other words, you don't know? Lol. ;)
#14996248
Potemkin wrote:Indeed, but I can't pay my bills with dead leaves I've gathered from my back garden. What is it that gives those specific bits of paper, plastic or base metal their value?


Not to speak for SC, but I think we all know that ''Opinion is the Queen of the World'' as Pascal once said.

Opinion gives the money it's ''value''. It is Money that doesn't exist.
#14996251
Potemkin wrote:In other words, you don't know? Lol. ;)

It seems you don't know. Aristotle back in the 4th century bc identified 5 properties that a commodity should have to function as good money.
1. Durability
2. Portability
3. Fungibility
4. Divisiblity
5. Intrinsic Value
Your leaves are rather poor by all these qualities so you will not have much luck offering them as money.
#14996253
annatar1914 wrote:Not to speak for SC, but I think we all know that ''Opinion is the Queen of the World'' as Pascal once said.

Opinion gives the money it's ''value''. It is Money that doesn't exist.

As Marx pointed out, under industrial capitalism what was real becomes a phantasm, and was a phantasm becomes real. Money is one such phantasm which has mysteriously taken on a solid reality, and indeed the pursuit of which has become the sole purpose of most people's lives.
#14996255
SolarCross wrote:It seems you don't know. Aristotle back in the 4th century bc identified 5 properties that a commodity should have to function as good money.
1. Durability
2. Portability
3. Fungibility
4. Divisiblity
5. Intrinsic Value
Your leaves are rather poor by all these qualities so you will not have much luck offering them as money.

Modern currency has no intrinsic value. And what about electronic payments? :eh:
#14996256
Potemkin wrote:As Marx pointed out, under industrial capitalism what was real becomes a phantasm, and was a phantasm becomes real. Money is one such phantasm which has mysteriously taken on a solid reality, and indeed the pursuit of which has become the sole purpose of most people's lives.


The crux of my problem with other opponents of Capitalism is precisely that Socialists can fall prey to that same delusion as others, under industrial Capitalism. But you know my thoughts on the Bourgeoisie affectation of secularism which carried over to the revolutionaries as well.
#14996258
Potemkin wrote:Modern currency has no intrinsic value. And what about electronic payments? :eh:

It has the intrinsic value of convenience, wide spread acceptance and relative security. It has value as money because of its utility as a currency. I lean towards "real" money like gold or whatever but even I recognise that even fiat money does have some intrinsic value. Its worst fault is that it is too easy to print and that can lead to value leak but the convenience factor is pretty strong in all honesty.
#14996259
SolarCross wrote:It has the intrinsic value of convenience, wide spread acceptance and relative security. It has value as money because of its utility as a currency. I lean towards "real" money like gold or whatever but even I recognise that even fiat money does have some intrinsic value. Its worse fault is that it is too easy to print and that can lead to value leak.


All you mentioned is fairly subjective, except ''utility'', and that begs the question of; ''for whom''?
#14996260
annatar1914 wrote:All you mentioned is fairly subjective, except ''utility'', and that begs the question of; ''for whom''?

Free men (and women) who want a convenient way to reward each other.

@SSDR, @Potemkin, @annatar1914

Okay look I have explained what money is, who wants it, why it exists and what it is good for, now all you commies need to explain to me how I persuade someone to do something for me without offering any kind of reward? If you don't have a good answer then that right there is why socialism fails.
#14996266
SSDR wrote:@SolarCross, You were conditioned to think that you need bribery to motivate you to work.

What kind of "conditioning" do you think you can use on me to make me work for free? Did I mention I would kill anyone who wanted to make a slave of me?
Last edited by SolarCross on 28 Mar 2019 04:23, edited 1 time in total.
#14996269
SolarCross wrote:What kind of "conditioning" do you think you can use on me to make me work for free? Did I mention I would kill anyone that wanted to make a slave of me?


Bribery and/or Punishment are common motivators historically speaking. But the best motivator is convincing one that one's self-interest lies with the social and economic order of the day. Doesn't make it so.
#14996272
annatar1914 wrote:Bribery and/or Punishment are common motivators historically speaking. But the best motivator is convincing one that one's self-interest lies with the social and economic order of the day. Doesn't make it so.

The best motivator is a tangible reward. Freemen get "bribes", slaves get the whip. In truth the "command" economy is a slave economy but slaves are sloppy and lazy even when they are not rebellious, treacherous and murderous. So why bother? Let's all be free men in a free society instead of all this bullshit. I am actually a little fucking disappointed that I as a pagan have to explain that to a Christian. It was exactly Christians that campaigned from conscience against the practice of slavery. Pagans were free people but they had no problem making slaves of those they took in battle.
#14996276
SolarCross wrote:The best motivator is a tangible reward. Freemen get "bribes", slaves get the whip. In truth the "command" economy is a slave economy but slaves are sloppy and lazy even when they are not rebellious, treacherous and murderous. So why bother? Let's all be free men in a free society instead of all this bullshit. I am actually a little fucking disappointed that I as a pagan have to explain that to a Christian. It was exactly Christians that campaigned from conscience against the practice of slavery. Pagans were free people but they had no problem making slaves of those they took in battle.


We've had this discussion before, about the insipid emotional blackmail of non-Christians thinking they have the capacity to ''explain'' Christianity to them, the Christians :roll:

As it happens, I DO have a problem with freedom as a concept, in which the meaning you have and the meaning I have are somewhat different. I am basically a Compatibilist/Determinist philosophically;

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/compatibilism/


So I am not going to have the same ideas on ''freedom'' as say, Max Stirner or Ayn Rand.
Last edited by annatar1914 on 28 Mar 2019 04:41, edited 1 time in total.
#14996277
SSDR wrote:@SolarCross, Slavery isn't when one works for free. Slavery is when one is OWNED BY ANOTHER PERSON. You don't even know what the definition of slavery is you fucking retard.

Slavery is when you are forced to work. Whoever is doing the forcing is de facto your owner or the agent of an owner. So tell me about the "conditioning" you want to do to me?
#14996279
@SolarCross, No, slavery is when you are OWNED by another human being. This includes family, capitalist employer, feudal landlord, etc.

Capitalists have conditioned YOU to think that you need rewards and bribes to motivate you to work, so that they can control you. Capitalists conditioned YOU to think that you need family nurturement to motivate you to work, and that family nurturement enslaves the relatives that you make nurture you because they have to submit to you, because you think that is what's needed to motivate you to work because the capitalists have conditioned YOU to think that you need that, to keep people under the family slavery.
#14996280
SSDR wrote:@SolarCross, No, slavery is when you are OWNED by another human being. This includes family, capitalist employer, feudal landlord, etc.

Capitalists have conditioned YOU to think that you need rewards and bribes to motivate you to work, so that they can control you. Capitalists conditioned YOU to think that you need family nurturement to motivate you to work, and that family nurturement enslaves the relatives that you make nurture you because they have to submit to you, because you think that is what's needed to motivate you to work because the capitalists have conditioned YOU to think that you need that, to keep people under the family slavery.


You are not answering my question! HOW WILL YOU "CONDITION" ME TO WORK FOR FREE AGAINST MY WILL?

(I will happily accept answers from @Potemkin and @annatar1914 also)
Last edited by SolarCross on 28 Mar 2019 04:50, edited 2 times in total.
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