Prophets of Abrahamic Religions - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

Wandering the information superhighway, he came upon the last refuge of civilization, PoFo, the only forum on the internet ...

An atheist-free area for those of religious belief to discuss religious topics.

Moderator: PoFo Agora Mods

Forum rules: No one line posts please. Religious topics may be discussed here or in The Agora. However, this forum is intended specifically as an area for those with religious belief to discuss religion without threads being derailed by atheist arguments. Please respect that. Political topics regarding religion belong in the Religion forum in the Political Issues section.
#14995294
@Hindsite

I look at your responses, and I can tell that we're simply talking past each other, with no common ground whatsoever at least when it comes to eschatology, the events of the future leading to the Second Coming. We're certainly not convincing each other of the other's beliefs in this area.

Your belief essentially shit cans 2000 years of Christian theology in these matters, as I said from very clever but very suspect sources, and I simply won't be moved from what the Apostles said, nor from what their disciples in turn said also regarding all this.

So the best thing to do in these things is to wait. Because false prophesy always winds up untrue. My advice then is to not base your politics on such shaky ground as a theory of these sorts. For all you know, the Muslims might one day instead of bringing forth the Antichrist, convert to Christianity and be far more filled with the Holy Spirit than Europeans have in many generations.

So there it is, I have nothing more to say.
#14995307
annatar1914 wrote:@HindsiteYour belief essentially shit cans 2000 years of Christian theology in these matters, as I said from very clever but very suspect sources, and I simply won't be moved from what the Apostles said, nor from what their disciples in turn said also regarding all this.


Agreed. I hope Hindsite one day understands the authors were Jewish, and therefore you need to apply Jewish Psychology to the text, which of cause rules out anything but Amillenialism. 666 is obviously a direct coded reference (designed to be understood by Jewish readers) to Emperor Caesar Nero.

Obviously I disagree with you about why it refers to Rome, because as an Orthodox you are of the opinion that's the Catholic Church. But if it's about the Catholic Church, why does it refer directly to the Roman Army, with its standards and to Caesar Nero? Nero was the emperor who ordered the campaign against Judea that resulted in the Jewish Temple, and ultimately Jerusalem itself, going bye-bye.
#14995311
colliric wrote:Agreed. I hope Hindsite one day understands the authors were Jewish, and therefore you need to apply Jewish Psychology to the text, which of cause rules out anything but Amillenialism. 666 is obviously a direct coded reference (designed to be understood by Jewish readers) to Emperor Caesar Nero.

Obviously I disagree with you about why it refers to Rome, because as an Orthodox you are of the opinion that's the Catholic Church. But if it's about the Catholic Church, why does it refer directly to the Roman Army, with its standards and to Caesar Nero? Nero was the emperor who ordered the campaign against Judea that resulted in the Jewish Temple, and ultimately Jerusalem itself, going bye-bye.


Well my friend, that would be more Preterism, your position, than mine is. I look at the whole text of the Apocalypse beyond the letters to the 7 churches in Anatolia, as a ''future history'' of the Church in symbolic form; right now in my opinion i'd say we're ''between'' the 5th and sixth trumpet judgements... Just after Protestantism (the 5th Trumpet) but before the ''war'' that kills a third of mankind (which might be a spiritual death, IMO) in point of time, in other words.

As for Nero and all that, I've come away from it basically disbelieving it has anything to do with him. It's ''Nero'', not ''Neron'', if you get my drift, and to think otherwise and place him in that position really tortures the text. A good book that explains a great deal of this in a theological opinion similar to mine but from a Roman Catholic perspective is this Priest's;




But I try to rely even more on the Fathers like Saints Irenaeus, Saint Ignatius of Antioch, and Saint Hippolytus and his '' Treatise On Christ and Antichrist'' for example;

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... hrist.html

Where basically he says that Antichrist will be of Israelite origin but conquer 3 then all 10 kingdoms of the former Roman Empire, reviving It, with Jews and Gentiles following him.

And here is what Saint Irenaeus, the Disciple of Saint Polycarp, who was Disciple of Saint John, had to say in this excerpt;

Although certain as to the number of the name of Antichrist, yet we should come to no rash conclusions as to the name itself, because this number is capable of being fitted to many names. Reasons for this point being reserved by the Holy Spirit. Antichrist's reign and death.

1. Such, then, being the state of the case, and this number being found in all the most approved and ancient copies [of the Apocalypse], and those men who saw John face to face bearing their testimony [to it]; while reason also leads us to conclude that the number of the name of the beast, [if reckoned] according to the Greek mode of calculation by the [value of] the letters contained in it, will amount to six hundred and sixty and six; that is, the number of tens shall be equal to that of the hundreds, and the number of hundreds equal to that of the units (for that number which [expresses] the digit six being adhered to throughout, indicates the recapitulations of that apostasy, taken in its full extent, which occurred at the beginning, during the intermediate periods, and which shall take place at the end) — I do not know how it is that some have erred following the ordinary mode of speech, and have vitiated the middle number in the name, deducting the amount of fifty from it, so that instead of six decads they will have it that there is but one. [I am inclined to think that this occurred through the fault of the copyists, as is wont to happen, since numbers also are expressed by letters; so that the Greek letter which expresses the number sixty was easily expanded into the letter Iota of the Greeks.] Others then received this reading without examination; some in their simplicity, and upon their own responsibility, making use of this number expressing one decad; while some, in their inexperience, have ventured to seek out a name which should contain the erroneous and spurious number. Now, as regards those who have done this in simplicity, and without evil intent, we are at liberty to assume that pardon will be granted them by God. But as for those who, for the sake of vainglory, lay it down for certain that names containing the spurious number are to be accepted, and affirm that this name, hit upon by themselves, is that of him who is to come; such persons shall not come forth without loss, because they have led into error both themselves and those who confided in them. Now, in the first place, it is loss to wander from the truth, and to imagine that as being the case which is not; then again, as there shall be no light punishment [inflicted] upon him who either adds or subtracts anything from the Scripture, Revelation 22:19 under that such a person must necessarily fall. Moreover, another danger, by no means trifling, shall overtake those who falsely presume that they know the name of Antichrist. For if these men assume one [number], when this [Antichrist] shall come having another, they will be easily led away by him, as supposing him not to be the expected one, who must be guarded against.

2. These men, therefore, ought to learn [what really is the state of the case], and go back to the true number of the name, that they be not reckoned among false prophets. But, knowing the sure number declared by Scripture, that is, six hundred sixty and six, let them await, in the first place, the division of the kingdom into ten; then, in the next place, when these kings are reigning, and beginning to set their affairs in order, and advance their kingdom, [let them learn] to acknowledge that he who shall come claiming the kingdom for himself, and shall terrify those men of whom we have been speaking, having a name containing the aforesaid number, is truly the abomination of desolation. This, too, the apostle affirms: "When they shall say, Peace and safety, then sudden destruction shall come upon them." 1 Thessalonians 5:3 And Jeremiah does not merely point out his sudden coming, but he even indicates the tribe from which he shall come, where he says, "We shall hear the voice of his swift horses from Dan; the whole earth shall be moved by the voice of the neighing of his galloping horses: he shall also come and devour the earth, and the fullness thereof, the city also, and they that dwell therein." Jeremiah 8:16 This, too, is the reason that this tribe is not reckoned in the Apocalypse along with those which are saved.

3. It is therefore more certain, and less hazardous, to await the fulfilment of the prophecy, than to be making surmises, and casting about for any names that may present themselves, inasmuch as many names can be found possessing the number mentioned; and the same question will, after all, remain unsolved. For if there are many names found possessing this number, it will be asked which among them shall the coming man bear. It is not through a want of names containing the number of that name that I say this, but on account of the fear of God, and zeal for the truth: for the name Evanthas (ΕΥΑΝΘΑΣ) contains the required number, but I make no allegation regarding it. Then also Lateinos (ΛΑΤΕΙΝΟΣ) has the number six hundred and sixty-six; and it is a very probable [solution], this being the name of the last kingdom [of the four seen by Daniel]. For the Latins are they who at present bear rule: I will not, however, make any boast over this [coincidence]. Teitan too, (ΤΕΙΤΑΝ, the first syllable being written with the two Greek vowels ε and ι, among all the names which are found among us, is rather worthy of credit. For it has in itself the predicted number, and is composed of six letters, each syllable containing three letters; and [the word itself] is ancient, and removed from ordinary use; for among our kings we find none bearing this name Titan, nor have any of the idols which are worshipped in public among the Greeks and barbarians this appellation. Among many persons, too, this name is accounted divine, so that even the sun is termed "Titan" by those who do now possess [the rule]. This word, too, contains a certain outward appearance of vengeance, and of one inflicting merited punishment because he (Antichrist) pretends that he vindicates the oppressed. And besides this, it is an ancient name, one worthy of credit, of royal dignity, and still further, a name belonging to a tyrant. Inasmuch, then, as this name "Titan" has so much to recommend it, there is a strong degree of probability, that from among the many [names suggested], we infer, that perchance he who is to come shall be called "Titan." We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian's reign.

4. But he indicates the number of the name now, that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is: the name, however, is suppressed, because it is not worthy of being proclaimed by the Holy Spirit.
For if it had been declared by Him, he (Antichrist) might perhaps continue for a long period. But now as "he was, and is not, and shall ascend out of the abyss, and goes into perdition," Revelation 17:8 as one who has no existence; so neither has his name been declared, for the name of that which does not exist is not proclaimed. But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is, the rest, the hallowed seventh day; and restoring to Abraham the promised inheritance, in which kingdom the Lord declared, that "many coming from the east and from the west should sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." Matthew 8:11


Emphasis in bold, on possible names of Antichrist, and the likely one being translated as ''Of the Latins".

Now I have to be fair and say that the Jewish Temple idea does have a stronger claim to being literally fulfilled from all this, but anyways...
#14995312
Jimmy Akin's book "Understanding Revelation" is the one I enjoyed reading the most, as well as Carl Olson's "Will Catholics Be Left Behind?".

Both are Amillenialist works. Preterist I guess, but as a "subgenre" of Amillenialism.

As for Nero and all that, I've come away from it basically disbelieving it has anything to do with him.


Which is ok, the number 666 is simply referring to him because he is the apparent current "Caesar" or if the book was written after him, is the famous "evil Caesar from earlier and we're using this to send a coded message". It's referring mainly though to the office, but doing so by using his Hebrew numerology as a code.
#14995315
annatar1914 wrote:@Hindsite

I look at your responses, and I can tell that we're simply talking past each other, with no common ground whatsoever at least when it comes to eschatology, the events of the future leading to the Second Coming. We're certainly not convincing each other of the other's beliefs in this area.

I can agree with that.

annatar1914 wrote:Your belief essentially shit cans 2000 years of Christian theology in these matters, as I said from very clever but very suspect sources, and I simply won't be moved from what the Apostles said, nor from what their disciples in turn said also regarding all this.

I believe it has only been about 600 years that the Pope at Rome has been part of the Antichrist theology. It dates back to the time of John Wycliffe, John Huss, and finally Martin Luther in Protestant theology.

annatar1914 wrote:So the best thing to do in these things is to wait. Because false prophesy always winds up untrue. My advice then is to not base your politics on such shaky ground as a theory of these sorts. For all you know, the Muslims might one day instead of bringing forth the Antichrist, convert to Christianity and be far more filled with the Holy Spirit than Europeans have in many generations.

So there it is, I have nothing more to say.

Trump claims the ISIS caliphate has been defeated, but others say their deadly wound may heal and they may reemerge stronger than ever. Who knows? But why disparage the Pope and the Roman Catholic Church, who are our Christian brothers, based only on middle age accusation? I would much rather disparage Islam and Muslims, who have no brotherly love for Christians or Jews and who clearly have Antichrist beliefs and theology today.

colliric wrote:Agreed. I hope Hindsite one day understands the authors were Jewish, and therefore you need to apply Jewish Psychology to the text, which of cause rules out anything but Amillenialism. 666 is obviously a direct coded reference (designed to be understood by Jewish readers) to Emperor Caesar Nero.

Some in the early church may at one time thought the reference was to Caesar Nero, but it is obvious today that would make it a false prophecy.

Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is Antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. (1 John 2:22)

In 1 John 2:22 there is something more than just the denial of the deity of Christ. The Antichrist spirit not only denies the deity of Christ, it also denies the Father and the Son. There are “Christian” denominations who deny the deity of Jesus Christ. They are the Jehovah Witnesses, the Mormons, and others. Because of this denial they have been classified as cults. They deny that Jesus Christ is God in the flesh Who dwelt among us.

Islam not only denies the deity of Christ, but also denies the Father and the Son. One of the major teachings of Islam is that Allah, their god, is not a father, and he has no son. One of their key statements of doctrine is “Allah hath no son.”

On the Temple Mount in Israel there is the Dome of the Rock. On each side of it, north, south, east, and west, it is written in Arabic, “Allah hath no son.” They are communicating to the Christian world that Jesus is not God, and Allah is not a father.

I have problems with the Roman Catholic church, but we must admit that the Roman Catholic Church does hold to God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. It does not deny the Father and the Son. I don’t know how those who hold that the Antichrist religion is the Catholic Church reconcile this issue.

Is the History of Islam a River of Blood and is Islam Antichrist?

Antifa again demonstrates its undemocratic nature

A serious question, @SSDR: would you see an "[…]

EU-BREXIT

Very well, what about the other similar claims in[…]

It is hard to believe that the Yemeni rebel group […]

Election 2020

Of course, a good economy and cutting red tape ar[…]