Exegesis, Time, Judgment, St. Paul - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15076351
This thread is a split from Page 32 of the "Trump Has Sabotaged America's Coronavirus Response" thread.

Some of the posts there still linger but hopefully this will take off. Below is my response to Donna.

I also entertain people coming & responding to the posts about "Judgment" here so I am adding the Archbishop Averky image quote.

Image

Donna wrote:Why not? It has always seemed intuitively obvious that establishing an institutional religion is difficult business and God was acting through (as opposed to unconditionally 'with') a murderous zealot like Saul of Tarsus to accomplish such a task. God needed a Lenin on earth to give Christianity a bit of a push
...

It's not something that can be formulated from the center without creating a crisis of unity, but intelligent and educated Christians should have the sense to view Paul contextually and worship in slightly heterodox communities that integrate historical context into their theologies.
...

In order to understand the world in a comparative context one probably needs (or is recommended at least) to study Hindu cosmogony and esotericism or Maya religion, or any ancient tradition that fixates on creation stories or is influenced by intercourse with animist religion. Most of the remnants of these cosmologies, at least Eastern ones, were purged from the nascent Christian movement. The Biblical creation story is comparatively historical-political. It's more about history coming into being rather than the natural world. Because of this Christianity can be understood as a dialectic where things like same-sex marriage and woman-priests can be understood as the actualizing of the full embrace of God's grace over and against the opposite pole of existence that lawfully orders the house and herds the faithful.


That's an interesting perspective. But I have made a lot of effort to try to understand Christianity as it was understood by those in the first millennia, and how it is supposed to be understood in a timeless sense... A bit presumptive of me, but this isn't me just going off on his own, heed you, this is me as someone trying to return to the source by going into the Orthodox church and reading the early Church fathers...

My understanding is that St. Paul really did perform miracles, and so did his relics (as the Bible says), and he was anointed by God. All of our church fathers affirmed his teachings. The visions that he received were from a God who predestined the success of His Church, and anointed St. Paul to play a pivotal role in it.

These teachings are utterly timeless. They are also, simultaneously, situated in opposition to the world, at many different points and times. The prohibitions against excessive wealth, violence, being judgmental, being hypocritical, fornication, substance abuse, etc., are not accidental, and while in our age we may be doing a great job of refraining from violence or being judgmental, with us in mind just as much as any other generation the Gospels & Epistles were crafted, and the words of the Saints and church fathers have come down to us.

The historic context actually does not matter. Christ was flying in the face of society then, why would we not wish to fly in the face of society now?

And if we can choose to interpret the Bible differently in one direction, we can choose to itnerpret it differently in every direction, in every era, for any reason.

As I see it, Christianity should be extremely liberal when it comes to the individual, but unyielding when it comes to tradition. Everyone is welcome, and everyone has a past and a current set of vices to repent of, and it's our job to actually ensure that you get the complete & full message, unchanged, unfiltered... We will accommodate every individual, but we will not accommodate groups and the times.
#15076362
Great idea for a thread! People don't like to hear certain things from the Scripture or the Fathers because they are involved with (or know someone dear to them who is) a sin or cluster of sins that they are very deep into, that runs their life. They don't want to change their lives so they invent an Idol of a ''God'' that doesn't want or expect them to. Or, they reject God and the idea of God altogether.

The cure, as the Neptic Fathers might say, lies in the Heart, not so much the Mind, which invents many rationalizations for all the carrying out of the desires of our disordered passions.
#15076365
As someone who takes scripture as inspired but not infallible or inerrant, I think life choices are between the individual, their conscience, and God. If Christianity taught us anything it's that the Law isn't established by scripture, people who take scripture that way are whitewashed tombs, the Law is a living essence that is only written in the heart and in the conscience of the individual.
#15076367
Sivad wrote:As someone who takes scripture as inspired but not infallible or inerrant, I think life choices are between the individual, their conscience, and God. If Christianity taught us anything it's that the Law isn't established by scripture, people who take scripture that way are whitewashed tombs, the Law is a living essence that is only written in the heart and in the conscience of the individual.


It is the case that we should do something not because it is a "law" or because it says it in the Bible, but we actually do it because it pleases God and it works to relieve us from sin and heighten our virtues to be able to be pleasing to God.

We should be weary to not be legalistic, but if we become full-on antinomianists we are leaving the royal road. Then anybody can simply say "Yes, but, I do what I want. I don't depend on laws. I am still very close to God because of this other thing."
#15076376
Verv wrote:It is the case that we should do something not because it is a "law" or because it says it in the Bible, but we actually do it because it pleases God and it works to relieve us from sin and heighten our virtues to be able to be pleasing to God.

We should be weary to not be legalistic, but if we become full-on antinomianists we are leaving the royal road. Then anybody can simply say "Yes, but, I do what I want. I don't depend on laws. I am still very close to God because of this other thing."


I'm not advocating antinomianism, there's obviously an objective moral law and our spiritual health obviously depends on our obedience to it. And I don't even think we can casually pick and choose which tenets of Scripture to follow. The Book is obviously inspired, it contains many profound truths about the universe, the human condition, and the life of the soul, so it should be accorded the weight that it's due.

So for instance, if the Book says homosexuality is sinful we shouldn't just lightly dismiss that as an antiquated moral prohibition, we should reflect deeply on it, search or souls, and take it before God in prayer. And after going through that process we find that a loving committed homosexual relationship isn't an impediment to our relationship with God or our spiritual progress toward the Kingdom then we have to conclude that either we have misinterpreted scripture or that the fallible, albeit inspired, author allowed their own biases, prejudice, or misguided morality to creep into the text.

We don't believe in scripture because scripture claims to be infallible, we believe in scripture because its teachings are authenticated through reason, conscience, and our faith in and our relationship with, God. For a sincere Christian everything begins and ends with that relationship, and if there is a failing in our life choices then God will convict our hearts and lead us to repentance. It's not for anyone else to judge. And it's certainly not the prerogative of anyone other than God to say who is or is not a Christian.
#15076380
Sivad wrote:So for instance, if the Book says homosexuality is sinful we shouldn't just lightly dismiss that as an antiquated moral prohibition, we should reflect deeply on it, search or souls, and take it before God in prayer. And after going through that process we find that a loving committed homosexual relationship isn't an impediment to our relationship with God or our spiritual progress toward the Kingdom then we have to conclude that either we have misinterpreted scripture or that the fallible, albeit inspired, author allowed their own biases, prejudice, or misguided morality to creep into the text.


This would basically make all of the Bible de facto optional minus perhaps the "red letters."

For what?

For ingratiating ourselves to the world.

... and where does homosexuality come off as a lifestyle that is ordered and healthy?

Being wealthy can be perfectly ordered, healthy, and positive, yet attachment to riches is condemned. Imagine if I were to suggest that after having prayed about it I have discovered that it is fine to have a private jet and three sprawling mansions because, ultimately, I am not hurting anybody with my money nor am I living in a way that is ultimately disordered or wrong. I can even claim that these things do not really matter to me... It's just a thing that I am doing and providing for my loved ones.

Why not even do this with things like polyamory.



We don't believe in scripture because scripture claims to be infallible, we believe in scripture because its teachings are authenticated through reason, conscience, and our faith in and our relationship with, God. For a sincere Christian everything begins and ends with that relationship, and if there is a failing in our life choices then God will convict our hearts and lead us to repentance. It's not for anyone else to judge. And it's certainly not the prerogative of anyone other than God to say who is or is not a Christian.


First, do you thik that the objections to homosexuality can never be seen through reason?

Second, I had never thought that there was anything in the spiritual claims of St. Paul that were dubious. What is wrong with suggesting sexuality should only be done within marriage?

Third, I thought God had made it pretty clear in the Bible that homosexuality was to be condemned..? I mean,I am not judigng anyone, but it seems like you are literally judging God and implying that He has chosen to have his sacred text apparently be wrong for the last two thousand years...?
#15076384
Damn Verv thats a cool Twitter follow thank u for the suggestion.

This is their pinned tweet btw:





Not a joke: I am worried about the media Verv consumes because when he posts here he's trying to "hide his power level" as they call it and come off as less fash. This is either Verv's account (their most visible tweet has 7 likes) or he is seeking out incredibly niche Jew hating "scholars" like some kind of alt-right weirdo.

Anyway, my contribution to the topic of religion: I found god within in my heart and immediately beat the shit out of him, which I was right to do because of spiritual castle doctrine. And now he's my bitch. You guys worship my bitch, and not even my best one. So you guys look really silly to me.
#15076528
SpecialOlympian wrote:
Anyway, my contribution to the topic of religion: I found god within in my heart and immediately beat the shit out of him, which I was right to do because of spiritual castle doctrine. And now he's my bitch. You guys worship my bitch, and not even my best one. So you guys look really silly to me.


God enlighten you and have mercy on you. And you, may you have pity on yourself and turn from your wicked way that leads to destruction.
#15076562
Non judgementalism whether pushed by Christians, Buddhists, New Agers or Cultural Anthropologists inevitably falls into performative contradiction. Even encouraging someone to read a Bible is implicitly judgemental.
#15076563
Rich wrote:Non judgementalism whether pushed by Christians, Buddhists, New Agers or Cultural Anthropologists inevitably falls into performative contradiction. Even encouraging someone to read a Bible is implicitly judgemental.


The idea of ''Non judgementalism'' is a cultural relic of peak Liberalism and is neither possible nor is it followed by it's alleged adherents. We all make judgements, and we all often make statements that call for acceptance or rejection of one thing or another. It is merely a method of shutting down debate and the implicit acceptance of Liberal ideology, the use of such words.
#15076593
annatar1914 wrote:God enlighten you and have mercy on you. And you, may you have pity on yourself and turn from your wicked way that leads to destruction.


I think he was just being tardonic.
#15076596
Sivad wrote:I think he was just being tardonic.


Even were that so; ''Can a man take fire onto his bosom, and not be burned?''. Every idle word has consequences, as they are external signs of an inner reality within the person.
#15076630
Another interesting thing to bring up...

Luke 12:48:

But the one who did not know his master’s will and did things worthy of punishment will receive a light beating. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required, and from the one who has been entrusted with much, even more will be asked.


This is one of the most important passages in the Bible for modern people because we are so obsessed with what it means that someone is of a different religion or background, and also because we wonder about these people who are stuck in heretical sects (Mormonism) or in apostate churches (any church which denies St. Paul's teaching on homosexuality or some such could be considered this as they have turned their back entirely on the word of God to p lease man)...

I think this is where the non-judgment of Matthew 7:1 comes into play well.

We have no idea about what it means for the ultimate fate of people and cannot play God. Our role is to simply advance our Christian beliefs, to have God honored in our society as much as we can, and to bring these teachings out to be a light of the world. Non-judgment does not mean that we do not present Christian perspectives. It merely means that we fully acknowledge that we have no idea what happens at the FInal Judgment or who gets into heaven or hell or some such. We have the word of God, we must present it, but we must also acknowledge that we do not know the final outcome.
#15076905
annatar1914 wrote:Even were that so; ''Can a man take fire onto his bosom, and not be burned?''. Every idle word has consequences, as they are external signs of an inner reality within the person.


OK so what about the guy who is citing (or likely authored) nazi tweets as sources what's going on in his heart?
#15076930
SpecialOlympian wrote:OK so what about the guy who is citing (or likely authored) nazi tweets as sources what's going on in his heart?


Thanks for the reply, I appreciate it. Keep in mind to provide some context, that recently today i've been talking to an individual about Genocide, Revolution, and the Sig line of his that quotes Heinrich Himmler; I don't like Nazis and Fascists, at all. They've killed people I know, in recent years, not just during the Great Patriotic War.

My answer is that nobody really knows 100% what's in a person's heart, maybe even that person doesn't fully know why they do or don't do or say something. God knows the heart. But one can look at external signs hinting at an inner reality, and make some good guesses. We all make guesses, some better than others.

That's why I try to judge acts, or failures to act, rather than people themselves, even if they do or say some pretty rotten things. Sure, the guy you're talking about could be a Nazi or some sort of Fascist, I know people that roll that way while maintaining a veneer of common respectability, or something else might be going on.
#15076950
Dinesh D'Souza - Liberty University Convocation


On October 14, 2016, at Convocation, North America's largest weekly gathering of Christian students, Filmmaker and Political Commentator Dinesh D'Souza urged students to protect the American dream.
#15076991
annatar1914 wrote:My answer is that nobody really knows 100% what's in a person's heart, maybe even that person doesn't fully know why they do or don't do or say somethin.


OK but then why did you quote some dumb quote about losers struggling with some ill defined lack of spiritual wholeness and then engage seriously with people who use (((triple parenthesis))) anti-semite signifiers.

I'm just trying to figure out what's in your heart dude. Heart check, bro to bro man.

Because you're calling me some kind of fucking weirdo for calling you out and talking to Verv, a man who cites obscure twitter handles who drop hashtags like #jewniversary as things that you say in normal conversation.
#15077039
SpecialOlympian wrote:for calling you out and talking to Verv,


Well, you see, guy, some of us have the intelligence and the wit to hold down our side of the discourse. We don't need to hysterically shriek "nazi" at every bigoted opinion on the internet and we don't need to go larping through the streets at garden variety wingnuts. We can just beat them in the court of public opinion by demonstrating how flawed and misguided their thinking is with good arguments, real facts, and better ideas.
#15077081
OK but then why did you quote some dumb quote about losers struggling with some ill defined lack of spiritual wholeness


That's entirely not what that quote from Scripture is about. It's about people who can't stop sinning in certain ways because they hold the means and opportunity to sin close to their heart, making it easier for them to do wrong. Kind of like a bank teller who has already stolen from the bank but hasn't been caught, so they continue to steal more because they think it's child's play to do so with their job.


and then engage seriously with people who use (((triple parenthesis))) anti-semite signifiers.


Is that what he does? I haven't seen or noticed that. Certainly most anti-semites happen to be Fascists, but not every Fascist is an anti-semite.

I'm just trying to figure out what's in your heart dude. Heart check, bro to bro man.


Just living, doing my best by people every day.

Because you're calling me some kind of fucking weirdo for calling you out and talking to Verv


I am or was doing that?



, a man who cites obscure twitter handles who drop hashtags like #jewniversary as things that you say in normal conversation.


That is suspect, sure. But here's the thing (and it makes evil tricky to deal with); even a broken clock is right twice a day. The Fascists will say things that are correct on the face of it, in order to rope people into their Ideology and buy into those things which are wrong. This is true of evil in any case, universally. There comes a time to talk, and a time to avoid, and a time to fight.
#15077090
Verv wrote:The visions that he received were from a God

Art thou bound to a wife? Seek not to be loosed. Art thou loosed from a wife? Seek not a wife. But and if thou marry, thou has not sinned; and if a virgin marry, she hath not sinned. Nevertheless such shall have trouble in the flesh: but I spare you. But this I say, brethren, the time is short: it remaineth, that both they that have wives be as though they had none;

— 1 Corinthians 7:27-29

What happened to "Go forth and multiply".


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