[annatar1914]

@blackjack21, thanks for taking part in this thread, looking forwards as always to the conversation! In response to my contentions concerning Pagan cyclic and Monotheist Linear Time, you said in response that;

Well, I think Pagan conceptions coexisted with monotheism in Europe. For example, if you read the poems of the Carmina Burana, which Carl Orff put to music in the 1930s, the well-known piece, Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi, speaks of fortune as a wheel.



It's also mentioned in Fortune Plango Vulnera.

Yes, they did coexist together in Europe for sure, I do not deny that. In fact, it is my thinking that assumes such a situation, in which the Modern Age is little more so far than the rebirth of the Pagan conceptions of reality, and the gradual attempted disposal of the Monotheistic, also clearly;

But in my primary consideration, you say;

Well, the Book of Genesis puts God outside of time for all practical purposes, but suggests that a void did in fact exist. So God is effectively filling the void--creating physical matter, or filling the void if you will. It's these things that have a beginning and end.

Yes, from God's vantage point of being both transcendent and immanent in relation to His Creation, filled as it is with His Energies. However, God also (in the Christian Monotheist thinking) also relates partly with man as the 'Son of Man', while remaining the Second Person of the Trinity, the Son of God. And thus, in a Linear drama that ends in the final revelation of the eternal kingdom of God, as I said, ''forever''. To which you said;

Ahh... but forever implies no end. The end beginning and end appears to be physical, not metaphysical.

Yes, but with the ''New Heavens and the New Earth'', the Time is still perceived by man as sequential and linear in duration, but as he will then be once more immortal, will then have the capacity to endure it. It will be physical and spiritual alike, those states of being no longer severed from each other but once more complimentary.

[Verv]

Yet another reason to leave the City, in our expectation.

I had to grapple with this on Saturday.

I was invited out to Gangnam to spend the evening with some folks, and everywhere was assaulted by noise, drunkenness; I nearly relapsed into drinking alcohol because of how appealing the situation can become. While jarring, there's something romantic about sitting indoors with meat grilling, and seeing the red faces & excitement of all of the drunks...

But I resisted, not without difficulty.

I am too old to repeat the mistakes of youthful drunkenness, and I am too young to justify having a bit of the bitter drinks to take my mind off of bodily pains and the unpleasantness of age...

And the Saints all agree: drunkenness is a vice.

But drunkenness is the mode of the city -- even when it is sober, it behaves in a way that beckons one to a spiritual indulgence that is drunkenness.

And this fits into the topic: Our bodies will be liberated from carnal desires in the eschaton, and our minds will be freed from the pollutants that come from such carnal existence, and we will be able to enjoy a pure pleasure that is intellectual and transcendent.

As St. Gregory of Sinai says:

"No one can master the intellect unless he himself is mastered by the Spirit. For the intellect is uncontrollable, not because it is by nature ever-active, but because through our continual remissness it has been given over to distraction and has become used to that."

St. Gregory of Sinai, in the Philokalia, Vol. IV

Our minds will only be able to function at their peak when we are free from the limitations of this world, and our minds on earth can only function at such a peak when we shed drunkenness.

[Unthinking Majority]

We are all wet robots.

[Verv]

We are all wet robots.

A very poetic turn of phrase, and I cannot be upset by this, for it is this kind of bluntness that we request from atheists.

[ness31]

How does that idea conflict with a creator though?

[Unthinking Majority]

A very poetic turn of phrase, and I cannot be upset by this, for it is this kind of bluntness that we request from atheists.

We either have a soul and live forever, or, as wet robots, when the computer breaks down and dies it is thrown in the recycle bin and we're just food for worms and maggots.

[annatar1914]

I had to grapple with this on Saturday.

I was invited out to Gangnam to spend the evening with some folks, and everywhere was assaulted by noise, drunkenness; I nearly relapsed into drinking alcohol because of how appealing the situation can become. While jarring, there's something romantic about sitting indoors with meat grilling, and seeing the red faces & excitement of all of the drunks...

But I resisted, not without difficulty.

I am too old to repeat the mistakes of youthful drunkenness, and I am too young to justify having a bit of the bitter drinks to take my mind off of bodily pains and the unpleasantness of age...

And the Saints all agree: drunkenness is a vice.

But drunkenness is the mode of the city -- even when it is sober, it behaves in a way that beckons one to a spiritual indulgence that is drunkenness.

And this fits into the topic: Our bodies will be liberated from carnal desires in the eschaton, and our minds will be freed from the pollutants that come from such carnal existence, and we will be able to enjoy a pure pleasure that is intellectual and transcendent.

As St. Gregory of Sinai says:



Our minds will only be able to function at their peak when we are free from the limitations of this world, and our minds on earth can only function at such a peak when we shed drunkenness.

@Verv ;

Well said my friend, we shall be what we were created to be, we are not mere graduated animals, clever beasts, or ''wet robots''.

Which reminds me; it seems that some have a real lust to make themselves and others believe in this materialism. Why? Matter doesn't matter, matter doesn't judge one's morality or have a higher self. It seems it has always been thus, as I have said, with the City.

The only City that we were truly made for and is being made for us, is the New Jerusalem.

[ness31]

It’s almost as if some of you don’t want science and religion to harmonize. This is very odd behaviour to me

[annatar1914]

It’s almost as if some of you don’t want science and religion to harmonize. This is very odd behaviour to me

@ness31

Science, true science, is never non-harmonized with true Religion. But just as there are false precepts and theories expounded by scientists, there are also false religions. Or, one can dryly try to dissect religion ''scientifically'' and turn it into a philosophy like the Scholastics did, or turn a scientific theory into a religion or religion-substitute.

But how does this relate to the difference in worldviews between the Pagan mind and the Monotheist one? And how does it relate to the creation of linear historical progress by Monotheists?

Actually, as it turns out, plenty of relation.

For the ''Abrahamic Religions'' of Monotheism predict a mass worldwide return to Non-Monotheistic thinking as Time gets closer to the Last Days.

[ness31]

Science, true science, is never non-harmonized with true Religion

Okay then. Explain to me scientifically the literal resurrection of Jesus after 3 days. I think modern day science and breakthroughs to come will be able to.

How did Jesus walk on water? What physical function did he activate that allowed him to do that? May he have been an enhanced human? The first and last of his kind?

How did Moses part the Red Sea? Was it some break in the space time continuum? What else will explain that story, EXCEPT science!?

When @Unthinking Majority referred to us as “wet robots” some of you seemed to take it as an offense, when really all it does is make the biblical narrative more accessible and realistic.

If Gods spirt is everywhere then why can’t his will come to fruition through scientific actors? How do you know Aliens aren’t angels? How do you know you aren’t witnessing a great revealing?

For the ''Abrahamic Religions'' of Monotheism predict a mass worldwide return to Non-Monotheistic thinking as Time gets closer to the Last Days.

I’m quite happy to be thought of as a Pagan in my quest to make the Bible make sense.

[annatar1914]

@ness31 ; here's the thing (and by this I'll know whether you are trolling, intentionally or not); this thread was intended by myself to have a discussion among spiritually inclined persons about a rather specific aspect of reality. That is, Time, and how Pagans and non-Monotheists view Time as opposed to Monotheist persons, and how this difference changed history by changing the mass perception of Time, from cyclic up and down to linear and progressive. After all, it's as the sub-forum notes;

''However, this forum is intended specifically as an area for those with religious belief to discuss religion without threads being derailed by atheist arguments. Please respect that.''

However, as with Late I want to determine if you and I are capable of having mutual conversation about these matters and understanding the same ''language'', even if it is not the language we are familiar with or comfortable with, in order to have fruitful conversations later on. So, I'll reply;

Okay then. Explain to me scientifically the literal resurrection of Jesus after 3 days. I think modern day science and breakthroughs to come will be able to.

True Science is limited, believe it or not. Science is observation of events, recording of events, and also being able to test those events and hopefully repeat them in specific conditions in order to determine exactly what a phenomenon is. Science cannot do this about the Resurrection. If you truly respect and believe in true Science, you will understand those limitations and understand that one cannot reject or accept the Resurrection on those grounds. However, one could discuss the circumstances around the Resurrection and establish some rational probabilities surrounding the Event to some end or other. Belief in what happened isn't irrational, it's simply beyond our limited reasoning.

How did Jesus walk on water? What physical function did he activate that allowed him to do that? May he have been an enhanced human? The first and last of his kind?

Christians believe that Jesus is fully Man and fully God, two natures in One Person. If by ''enhanced'' you mean ''pure and perfect and without sin'', I'd say yes, He is. He is able to do what He does because of Who He Is; God Incarnate.

How did Moses part the Red Sea? Was it some break in the space time continuum? What else will explain that story, EXCEPT science!?

St. Prophet Moses parted the Red Sea by calling upon God to work a miracle and save His people, chased by the Egyptian army as they were at the time. And so God suspended His physical laws as they ordinarily operate, not least of reasons being so that everyone involved would know that the God of Israel, is God.

Scientists weren't there observing and testing. If they had been there, who knows what they might have said or reported? After all, the Israelites always managed to grumble and rebel after witnessing all these miracles happening on their behalf, so it's likely some managed to foolishly explain away and rationalize what happened.

When @Unthinking Majority referred to us as “wet robots” some of you seemed to take it as an offense, when really all it does is make the biblical narrative more accessible and realistic.

How is that the case? A ''Robot '' is a programmed being that operates under that programming and not otherwise. Human beings aren't Robots. It's offensive (not personally however, because you seem to be merely asking honest questions) in that human beings are not merely animals or machines, but so much more... And this too goes back to the theme of this discussion thread; man can be so much more, and will be.

If Gods spirt is everywhere then why can’t his will come to fruition through scientific actors?

Nobody is saying that His Will can't be accomplished through certain people of any kind, as in fact ultimately His Will is accomplished through everyone and everything that is.

How do you know Aliens aren’t angels?

The real scientific question is; ''how do we know what Aliens are anyway? Do they really exist as we think they'd exist as?''

Monotheists have been reporting about non-human intelligent beings and their natures as allegedly revealed by God in their different Monotheistic religions for thousands of years, have encountered these beings.

How do you know you aren’t witnessing a great revealing?

How do you know that you are? What is exactly being ''revealed''? Could it be rather the opposite is happening? A ''Great Deception''?

I’m quite happy to be thought of as a Pagan in my quest to make the Bible make sense.

Not quite sure how you'd accomplish that thinking like a Pagan, as the Bible was in fact written by Monotheists. Would it not be easier to try to think like a Monotheist instead?

[Unthinking Majority]

It’s almost as if some of you don’t want science and religion to harmonize. This is very odd behaviour to me

How do you harmonize faith with science? Faith is believing without evidence, and science is the exact opposite.

[annatar1914]

How do you harmonize faith with science? Faith is believing without evidence, and science is the exact opposite.

@Unthinking Majority ;

Nothing you said is actually true under the rubrics of what I and others believe.

So, since you're trolling I'm asking that you respectfully take your opinion and discuss it elsewhere. Especially as;

''....However, this forum is intended specifically as an area for those with religious belief to discuss religion without threads being derailed by atheist arguments. Please respect that....''

[Unthinking Majority]

@Unthinking Majority ;

Nothing you said is actually true under the rubrics of what I and others believe.

So, since you're trolling I'm asking that you respectfully take your opinion and discuss it elsewhere. Especially as;

I'm not trolling, but I see your point and will respectfully go away now and allow you folks to continue discussing your faith...

[ness31]

*sigh*

Anyone who reads what I wrote will know there was nothing ‘atheist’ about it.

Furthermore, I think I made it clear that I believed your premise - that Monotheism is bound to a linear view of time, and the belief is rooted in scripture - to be plain wrong.

Dare I say, it is You, dear Sir that is trolling.

(Or Good Lady, whichever you prefer)

[annatar1914]

*sigh*

Anyone who reads what I wrote will know there was nothing ‘atheist’ about it.

Furthermore, I think I made it clear that I believed your premise - that Monotheism is bound to a linear view of time, and the belief is rooted in scripture - to be plain wrong.

Dare I say, it is You, dear Sir that is trolling.

(Or Good Lady, whichever you prefer)

@ness31

If you are reaching a conclusion that I think of you as an ''Atheist'', you are mistaken. I was simply answering your questions to see if you were willing to have a discussion specific to this thread, once we had mutually established that we're capable of having that discussion without a particular kind of ''language barrier''.

Look at my replies, there's nothing hostile to your quest as you call it.

[ness31]

What language barrier? Have I misunderstood your premise? That monotheistic religions take a linear view of time and that this is supposedly backed up by scripture?

[annatar1914]

I'm not trolling, but I see your point and will respectfully go away now and allow you folks to continue discussing your faith...

@Unthinking Majority ;

I'm not asking you to ''go away'', I'm asking you to not ''derail''. That is, do you understand what I wrote in my OP, and are you willing to have a discussion based on my contentions or in some kind of disagreement with them?

You'll note I have never asked anyone what they believe up front, look at the other people who I have involved discussions with in this Sub-Forum.

[annatar1914]

What language barrier? Have I misunderstood your premise? That monotheistic religions take a linear view of time and that this is supposedly backed up by scripture?

@ness31 ;

In a way you have misunderstood. I posted in my OP a description of two basic worldviews concerning Time in a Philosophical/Spiritual/Religious sense; ''Pagan'' and Cyclic non-progressive Time, and ''Monotheist'' and Linear progressive Time. I credit Monotheism therefore with the creation of the possibility of breaking that old conception of reality in the human mind, and therefore an advancement in human progress.

However, that Pagan and Cyclic conception of the Cosmos and Time has been returning, this is also my contention. My discussion is about whether or not I am right in thinking all this, and the possible ramifications of these possible truths on the larger world. It doesn't therefore directly have to do with some of the things you or @Unthinking Majority or Late have been discussing so far.

[ness31]

Oooooh, I’ve misunderstood you? So all that talk about traditionalist, conservative linear views of time being so amazingly ‘radical’ that was a misunderstanding? Liberating and progressive I think were your exact words

All that talk about the more pagan a view of time we accept, the closer to the end we are? I misunderstood that?

I’ve misunderstood nothing and maintain that your assertion of monotheistic religions being bound to a linear view of time with the backing of scripture, to be one giant troll.