[Agent Steel]

I have a question for theists that I have struggled with since as long as I can remember, and which, for me, seems have persistently been a difficult barrier to get to belief in God.

The question I have is how to reconcile the idea of traditional masculinity with Judeo-Christian philosophy.

Why is it that on one hand conservative Christians will claim that they value things like independence and self-reliance, but at the same time they will grovel and submit to a force outside of themselves for comfort and meaning? What kind of man is this? It strikes me as very beta-like behavior, and as someone who can appreciate traditional masculinity, I just don't get how you can justify such a subservient outlook on life. I always had the idea that an alpha male finds his strength and purpose from within himself rather than turning to outside forces to save him. I think self-reliance and independence is a wonderful thing. But if you're constantly praying and asking God for help when things get tough then clearly you're not self-reliant or independent.

How is kneeling, groveling, and submitting consistent with masculine ideals?

[Godstud]

The problem isn't with theism and masculinity, but in your idea of what 'submission' means.

Submitting to God does not mean groveling. The idea of submission has been warped to where people think it means subservience. That is not what submission means. Submission is a very complex definition which has several key points, none of which means subservience.

Men willingly submit to competent leadership and their boss, at work, every day.

All people submit to superior leaders, that they can put their trust into, who is looking out for them, and has their best interests at heart.

Well, that's what submitting to God means. You are submitting to the supreme form of leadership, and someone who absolutely wants the best for you. It's not about being a slave, and kneeling is merely a form of humbling yourself, not "grovelling". There is nothing more masculine than admitting that someone is superior in something, to you. It's accountability.

So, being submissive to a God does not reflect on your masculinity in any negative way. It's actually more masculine to trust in competent and superior leadership.

Asking God for help, is usually asking for the strength to deal with life's problems, as people know God isn't going to realistically swoop down and save the day. It's not "beta" to ask for help from a far superior being. If you needed help to fix a car, it's not less masculine to ask for help. Asking for help doesn't make you less self-reliant or independent. You can't go it alone all the time.

Drop the "alpha" and "Beta" male stuff. It really doesn't mean much. It's just silly, now. I know what you mean but it's just the difference between being more masculine and being more feminine. Men usually can't be put into boxes like that, anyhow.

[Potemkin]

I have a question for theists that I have struggled with since as long as I can remember, and which, for me, seems have persistently been a difficult barrier to get to belief in God.

The question I have is how to reconcile the idea of traditional masculinity with Judeo-Christian philosophy.

Why is it that on one hand conservative Christians will claim that they value things like independence and self-reliance, but at the same time they will grovel and submit to a force outside of themselves for comfort and meaning? What kind of man is this? It strikes me as very beta-like behavior, and as someone who can appreciate traditional masculinity, I just don't get how you can justify such a subservient outlook on life. I always had the idea that an alpha male finds his strength and purpose from within himself rather than turning to outside forces to save him. I think self-reliance and independence is a wonderful thing. But if you're constantly praying and asking God for help when things get tough then clearly you're not self-reliant or independent.

How is kneeling, groveling, and submitting consistent with masculine ideals?

The Kurgan agrees with you, @Agent Steel. Nothing sissy about the Kurgan, nosiree. You can tell from the black leather, the studs and the chains that he’s a man’s man.

[Godstud]

"Nuns. No sense of humour." - Classic!

You can tell from the black leather, the studs and the chains that he’s a man’s man.

Rob Halford wore leather, studs, and chains... Just saying.

[Agent Steel]

The problem isn't with theism and masculinity, but in your idea of what 'submission' means.

Submitting to God does not mean groveling. The idea of submission has been warped to where people think it means subservience. That is not what submission means. Submission is a very complex definition which has several key points, none of which means subservience.

Men willingly submit to competent leadership and their boss, at work, every day.

All people submit to superior leaders, that they can put their trust into, who is looking out for them, and has their best interests at heart.

Well, that's what submitting to God means. You are submitting to the supreme form of leadership, and someone who absolutely wants the best for you. It's not about being a slave, and kneeling is merely a form of humbling yourself, not "grovelling". There is nothing more masculine than admitting that someone is superior in something, to you. It's accountability.

So, being submissive to a God does not reflect on your masculinity in any negative way. It's actually more masculine to trust in competent and superior leadership.

Asking God for help, is usually asking for the strength to deal with life's problems, as people know God isn't going to realistically swoop down and save the day. It's not "beta" to ask for help from a far superior being. If you needed help to fix a car, it's not less masculine to ask for help. Asking for help doesn't make you less self-reliant or independent. You can't go it alone all the time.

Drop the "alpha" and "Beta" male stuff. It really doesn't mean much. It's just silly, now. I know what you mean but it's just the difference between being more masculine and being more feminine. Men usually can't be put into boxes like that, anyhow.

But you are assuming that this superior being really does in fact have the best interests in mind for you. You have to take that on faith.

But suppose this being is really a force for evil? Or suppose there is no such being at all?

If there is no God then asking for help from an imaginary being is one of the most beta-like behaviors I can think of.

[Godstud]

But you are assuming that this superior being really does in fact have the best interests in mind for you. You have to take that on faith.

Yep. Religion is based on faith. What makes you think your Creator would NOT have your best interests at heart? We trust our parents, don't we?

But suppose this being is really a force for evil? Or suppose there is no such being at all?

Evil doesn't create, but destroy. Evil isn't a "being" per se, IMHO. It's a capacity that we have that we must overcome.

If there is no God then asking for help from an imaginary being is one of the most beta-like behaviors I can think of.

There isn't evidence for or against a God. Asking for help from a superior being isn't "beta". Drop the beta talk. Even the most alpha person will do beta things. Alpha and beta are dumb labels that are too simple.

Alpha and beta is a perspective that is subjective, as well. Some think that apologizing or asking for forgiveness is "beta', where as I'd think that it's as alpha as you can get, as you are taking personal accountability for a failure or a misdeed. The strong can afford to be weak, at times.

[Fasces]

An elderly Jewish man dies and goes to heaven. He meets God, and tells them a Holocaust joke.

God says, "That isn't funny."

"Guess you had to be there," the Jewish man replied.

[Agent Steel]

Yep. Religion is based on faith. What makes you think your Creator would NOT have your best interests at heart? We trust our parents, don't we?

Evil doesn't create, but destroy. Evil isn't a "being" per se, IMHO. It's a capacity that we have that we must overcome.

There isn't evidence for or against a God. Asking for help from a superior being isn't "beta". Drop the beta talk. Even the most alpha person will do beta things. Alpha and beta are dumb labels that are too simple.

Alpha and beta is a perspective that is subjective, as well. Some think that apologizing or asking for forgiveness is "beta', where as I'd think that it's as alpha as you can get, as you are taking personal accountability for a failure or a misdeed. The strong can afford to be weak, at times.

It's pretty simple to me. A real man gets his strength from within. A beta male relies on the strength of others. Are we clear?

[Potemkin]

It's pretty simple to me. A real man gets his strength from within. A beta male relies on the strength of others. Are we clear?

Perfectly queer, uh, I mean perfectly clear.

[Godstud]

It's pretty simple to me. A real man gets his strength from within. A beta male relies on the strength of others. Are we clear?

Sure, but where do you think faith comes from? What you are saying is too simplistic. God doesn't give you strength, but helps you find that which you already have. Therefore, it does come from within.

You can go find the biggest "real men" and some will be religious and some will not. That does not reflect poorly on who they are. Their actions determine that.

Leaders get their strength from others. A good leader cannot lead without the consensus of others.

So your beta/alpha thing is too vague. Men aren't either one or the other.

[Potemkin]

Sure, but where do you think faith comes from? What you are saying is too simplistic. God doesn't give you strength, but helps you find that which you already have. Therefore, it does come from within.

You can go find the biggest "real men" and some will be religious and some will not. That does not reflect poorly on who they are. Their actions determine that.

Leaders get their strength from others. A good leader cannot lead without the consensus of others.

So your beta/alpha thing is too vague. Men aren't either one or the other.

Don’t listen to him, @Agent Steel - Jesus was just a long-haired sandal-wearing limp-wristed liberal hippie. Go for the Kurgan look: black leather, studs and chains. That way, everyone will know you’re an Alpha Male, a man’s man. The testosterone will waft off your manly body like a heady male musk. All the boys girls will swoon in your Alpha masculine presence!

[Godstud]

You're right @Potemkin. What was I thinking?