[Potemkin]

You didn't answer my question. You posted a totally boring Marxist definition of capital (which no one else uses, and everything has a social relation of some sort, including a fucking shaker of salt). Let's make this simpler for you: why should tangible, productive assets be destroyed?

My answer is that they shouldn't. The aim of a proletarian revolution is to seize collective ownership of the means of production, not destroy them. In fact, the achievements of the capitalist mode of production are real and should not be squandered in an orgy of mindless violence. When the Bolsheviks seized control in Russia in 1917, one of the first orders Lenin issued was to protect the museums and art galleries from looters and vandals. Even bourgeois culture should be preserved as the birthright of the revolutionary working class. Some collatoral damage is inevitable under revolutionary conditions, but it should be kept to a minimum.

Oh, and burning some little old lady's kiosk is not a revolutionary act.

[Sapper]

I would not be surprised that the "anarchists" that burned down the kiosk were just punks, while this Anarchist Initiative sounds like politicos. The more politico and thoughtful an anarchist is, the less likely the are to burn a kiosk, so long as it is not covered in corporate-globalization insignia.

[Dan]

Dan, read what Grunch said.

I did.

They may not have been the ones to torch that particular kiosk, but they were very likely heavy players in the riot and helped torch other items and spurred others on to act violently.

[Grunch]

they were very likely heavy players in the riot and helped torch other items and spurred others on to act violently

You are basing this assumption on what, exactly?

[Sapper]

You are basing this assumption on what, exactly?

Abso-fucking-lutely nothing. As usual. It'll go away if you ignore it.

[Corporatios]

You are basing this assumption on what, exactly?

Dan has a point on that.The anarchists are more or less connected with each other,so their actions are usually viewed as they are one group,and not like many small groups.If they didn't want to be criticised for the riots,then they shouldn't use the word 'anarchist' in their group name,or at least make a clear statement that they were against the looting and the destruction of small shops and cars,and take the responsibility for that.I

[Decky]

Will they pay compensation for the policeman that has been shot too?

Th old lady was civilian the capitalist running dog was not.

[Dan]

You are basing this assumption on what, exactly?

Let's see; a giant riot big enough to be international news, and a local anarchist group is not a part of it. Makes sense to me.

But because some idiots need to verify that the sky is blue and the grass is green when it conflicts with their ideology, here you go: proof they were involved in and supported the riots.

Here's some excerpts from the statement that they had issued during the riot on flyers:

Murder that was committed by the greek state is the truth of this society in an extremely concentrated form. Fire that consumes banks and police stations, shopping centers and insurance companies fuels our imagination and desire. “For in the destroyed and pillaged streets of our cities of light we see not only the obvious results of our rage, but the possibility of starting to live.”
...
What is more rational than taking control of the street and expelling the servants of existing order – the police and it’s other lackays?
...
Greek youth knows that there is no place for police on their streets, it knows that every crime needs to be punished and it knows also that the trivial phrases about untouchability of private property have not use value for it. The only untouchability that greek insurgents are interested in is the untouchability of murderers and only in order to smash it.
...
Instead of lights of consumerism greek cities are today being enlightened by the fire of history. An era of disturbances has begun. Finally a holiday worth celebrating.

But of course, this will be ignored.

[Grunch]

But because some idiots need to verify that the sky is blue and the grass is green when it conflicts with their ideology, here you go: proof they were involved in and supported the riots.

A march in Ljubljana where Anarchist Initiative leaflets were passed out proves Anarchist Initiative was involved in the Greek riots?

I can't find any real information about what Anarchist Initiative actually is and, apparently, you can't either.

[Dan]

A march in Ljubljana where Anarchist Initiative leaflets were passed out proves Anarchist Initiative was involved in the Greek riots?

It proves that they actively supported the rampant destruction; it is safe to assume that the local chapter would engage in the violence.

Or here from a few years back:

Support Mazokopos!

"Our aim is to climax our struggle at the second trial, whenever
this is appointed. We invite you to support this struggle by all
means."

Comrades,

This letter concerns the case of the anarchist fighter K. Mazo-
kopos, who, as you might already know, was sentenced to 17 years
imprisonment by the first court decision. We would like to remind
you briefly that K. Mazokopos was arrested at the hospital to which
he had resorted after an explosive mechanism had accidentally gone
off in his hands, thereby causing him the loss of his left eye and
his left hand up to the wrist. The next day (8 Nov. '90), the
police discovered guns, ammunition and printed matter in the
warehouse where the above incident had taken place. K. Mazokopos
was immediately charged with theft and possession of explosives,
explosion by negligence, as well as participation in the execution
of the psychiatrist of the Athenian penitentiary (Korydallos
Prison), on sole evidence of a pamphlet found in the warehouse, for
which the armed organisation Revolutionary Solidarity had claimed
responsibility. As was known to us and was proved later in court,
the pamphlet had in fact been mailed to the Union of Anarchists of
Athens, where Comrade Mazokopos was correspondence attendant.

Two significant developments followed upon the excuse of this
tragic incident:

(a) A "criminal hunt" was released among the anarchists and the
extreme left, resulting in the arrest and imprisonment of the
fighters Koyannis, Bouketsidis and Bergner, allegedly members of
the "Mazokopos group," who were finally reprieved after a long
hunger-strike.

(b) The enactment of the anti-terrorist Act was accelerated. The
purpose of this act is to annihilate visibly, morally, politically
and socially either those who have made the choice of armed
struggle, or those whom the police or the Secret Services
occasionally consider necessary to present as such, that is, every
time their force of social control and repression is challenged or
questioned. The latter is the least apparent but most frequently
used feature of the Anti-terrorist Act: its very endorsement was
based on constructed evidence and the inflation of facts concerning
our comrade.

It is indeed notable that since the reestablishment of parlia-
mentarism (1974-5_), respective laws and unjustified arrests were
not the outcome of tactical victories of the State against armed
organizations. Quite contrarily, they were enforced either because
the State would feel threatened by social unrest, or for the
psychopath's monomania which one of the gangs that control it would
use to distinguish itself from the rest and perform "counter-
terrorist services."

This also explains the disproportion between constructed evidence
and factual truth: In twenty years of armed struggle in Greece only
two guerrillas have become known, the revolutionaries Ch.
Tsoutsouvis and Ch. Kasimis. They were both assassinated by the
police (1985 and 1978 respectively) in confrontations that were
brought about by chance rather than preparation and plan.

As for comrade Mazokopos, the security forces charged him with as
many accusations as could be squeezed out of the warehouse in a
highly arbitrary way. In the trial, our comrade admitted having
rented the warehouse in 1983 with a forged I.D. for the storage of
an archive of anarchist printed matter. On leaving the warehouse in
1988-89, two other persons took over, the names of which he never
got close to disclosing. The unlucky incident occurred during the
last withdrawal of his own archival material.

For his outright stance and his refusal to become a traitor, the
court convicted him for a devastating 17-year prison sentence. He
was nevertheless discharged of the accusation of the psychiatrist's
murder and the three were completely acquitted, as Mazokopos had
also asked for in court.

We, as friends and comrades of K. Mazokopos, do not accept any of
the accusations against him and continue our support (a significant
part of which is financial, political and moral). Our aim is to
climax our struggle at the second trial, whenever this is
appointed. We invite you to support this struggle by all means.

We believe that this case should become known in a wider radius
than we could handle, for K. Mazokopos is one of the purest and
most honest Greek fighters for Anarchy. There is also need for his
financial support, given the conditions of his health and his
proletarian background. Moreover, we should coordinate our actions
in such a way that the issue of solidarity to K. Mazokopos acquires
international status. We will inform you about the date of his
second trial at the Appeal Court (around which our struggle will
reach a peak), as soon as we know. Greek consulates and embassies
are some of the sites where internationalist Anarchist Solidarity
can be demonstrated.

If you wish, you can contribute financially to the following
account number: National Bank of Greece 251/940054-08
With comradely regards,
Anarchist Initiative
of Thessaloniki
POB 11251
54110 Thessaloniki
Greece

It's quite clear the group promotes violence and destruction; it is obvious that anarchists were involved in the ciolence in Greece. it is therefore highly probable that the group was involved in the destruction.

I can't find any real information about what Anarchist Initiative actually is and, apparently, you can't either.

I'm sorry for not being able to read Greek just so I can find you something that's patently obvious.

[canadiancapitalist]

Oh Dan, your posts are of such quality :) Still I do not accept that these individuals are actually anarchists. They are really no different from the fox news statists. They're violent thugs, no better than the U.S. military.

[Grunch]

Or here from a few years back:

I would call 1993 more than a few year years back, and the A.I. Letter From Greece isn't exactly damning. They calls for anarchists to protest Greek consulates and embassies and give financial support to Mazokopos:

We, as friends and comrades of K. Mazokopos, do not accept any of
the accusations against him and continue our support (a significant
part of which is financial, political and moral). Our aim is to
climax our struggle at the second trial, whenever this is
appointed. We invite you to support this struggle by all means.

We believe that this case should become known in a wider radius
than we could handle, for K. Mazokopos is one of the purest and
most honest Greek fighters for Anarchy. There is also need for his
financial support, given the conditions of his health and his
proletarian background. Moreover, we should coordinate our actions
in such a way that the issue of solidarity to K. Mazokopos acquires
international status. We will inform you about the date of his
second trial at the Appeal Court (around which our struggle will
reach a peak), as soon as we know. Greek consulates and embassies
are some of the sites where internationalist Anarchist Solidarity
can be demonstrated.

If you wish, you can contribute financially to the following
account number: National Bank of Greece 251/940054-08
With comradely regards,
Anarchist Initiative
of Thessaloniki
POB 11251
54110 Thessaloniki
Greece

This is a far cry from the rioting that went on in Greece recently.

[Dave]

why are we even arguing about this

we all know anarchists are scum and should be rounded up and shot

whether or not these particular anarchists were guilty of the particular fire is irrelevant, they're morally culpable merely by spreading their poisonous parody of an ideology

[Potemkin]

why are we even arguing about this

we all know anarchists are scum and should be rounded up and shot

whether or not these particular anarchists were guilty of the particular fire is irrelevant, they're morally culpable merely by spreading their poisonous parody of an ideology

You'd have made a good political commissar in the Red Army during the Russian Civil War.

You have the makings of a good Bolshevik, Dave. If only you would give up your absurd attachment to capitalism....

[Dave]

You'd have made a good Obersturmbahnfuhrer in the SS during the the Deutsch Erwachen.

You have the makings of a good National Socialist, Potemkin. If only you would give up your absurd attachment to socialism....

[Potemkin]

Touche.

I find it rather touching that we are united by our shared hatred of liberals and anarchists, Dave.

[kuros_taken]

Because, you know, people who don't like to be told what to do and how to live their lives are simply not worthy human beings who are lazy, unproductive, and evil. Somehow that all makes sense.

[Dan]

hey calls for anarchists to protest Greek consulates and embassies and give financial support to Mazokopos

Selective quoting is wonderful isn't it.

[Corporatios]

Because, you know, people who don't like to be told what to do and how to live their lives are simply not worthy human beings who are lazy, unproductive, and evil. Somehow that all makes sense.

People who don't like to be told what to do and how to live their lives,but in the meantime they tell others what to do and how to live their lives,by breaking their stores and cars,by occuping the schools and universities although 90% of the students don't agree,by forcing a 21 year old human...sorry cop,to live a life without basic organs just because he was a policeman.I don't care if they're worthy humans or not.They might be worthier than me,but they won't sacrifice me for their cause.I have my own fights,and if I like their cause I will sacrifice myself for that.

[Dave]

Because, you know, people who don't like to be told what to do and how to live their lives are simply not worthy human beings who are lazy, unproductive, and evil. Somehow that all makes sense.

I hate being told what to do, but failure to accept authority is antisocial and pathetic. Anarchists are losers, and dangerous ones at that.