[QatzelOk]

on who the bad guys are

Oxy, we ALL agree with you on who the bad guys are.

It's them.

[Eauz]

I dont see a reason that they need to allow so many immigrants in and basically destroy their traditions and culture and be replaced.

Shortage of workers to sustain their economy. Japan is facing this crisis right now and are trying to prevent the idea of immigrants coming to the country, but I can't see that lasting much longer, with their aging population. If you don't like immigrants coming to your country, then start working and doing the jobs these people end up doing when they arrive here. Also, produce more children to counter for the aging population.

[Cheesecake_Marmalade]

I think some of Dave's views are too ridiculous to come from, what often appears to be a sane person.

Typical liberal. Sanity isn't judged by lucidity or any normal measurement, but by whether or not someone agrees with your politics. Honestly I think most of your positions are absolutely insane myself, but I don't dismiss them as "ridiculous" or other such condescending nonsense.

[skinster]

But calling them "insane" is okay

BTW, I didn't claim sanity was judged on whether or not someone agrees with me and never would. For example, I wouldn't call some of Oxy's views ridiculous (those which we disagree on) because I understand they're due to his alliance with his race/religion/ethnicity/whatever.

[Dave]

I think some of Dave's views are too ridiculous to come from, what often appears to be a sane person.

He might just be an attention-seeker on here.

I consider myself a sane person in insane times. A recent opinion poll on this forum had a majority supporting incest.

Shortage of workers to sustain their economy. Japan is facing this crisis right now and are trying to prevent the idea of immigrants coming to the country, but I can't see that lasting much longer, with their aging population. If you don't like immigrants coming to your country, then start working and doing the jobs these people end up doing when they arrive here. Also, produce more children to counter for the aging population.

What crisis? Unemployment is approaching 5% (and was doing so before the crisis) and underemployment is a chronic problem for younger workers. In fact, Japan is now paying foreigners to leave. And as the world leader in robotics, Japan has far less needed of unskilled and semi-skilled workers than most nations. There's also a much better solution to destroying your nation in the hope of improving the economy: have more children.

[QatzelOk]

A recent opinion poll on this forum had a majority supporting incest.

Spring's a curious time for incest threads and math riddles.

[Eauz]

What crisis?

Labour crisis. The West needs immigration, not because they love foreign people, but because there are jobs that need to be filled that are either not being taken by the domestic population or there is just not enough people to take these positions.

In fact, Japan is now paying foreigners to leave. And as the world leader in robotics, Japan has far less needed of unskilled and semi-skilled workers than most nations.

Not really talking about this. Everyone is having unemployment issues with this economic crisis, but I'm talking about the labour crisis, especially when the economy was doing well.

There's also a much better solution to destroying your nation in the hope of improving the economy: have more children.

Yes, I already stated this point. So, start having children.

[Oxymoron]

Tell me, who are the "good guys"?

No such thing.

Not really talking about this. Everyone is having unemployment issues with this economic crisis, but I'm talking about the labour crisis, especially when the economy was doing well.

There is a lot of fraud going on by employers to create a "need" for foriegn workers who are conviently cheaper then local candidates. In my new field for example firms actually create fake jobs, with extremely low pay (by industry standards) when no one bites they go to the goverment and request J-1 Visas for their Indian compatriots who they bring over and basically use them as slave labour and reap huge profits from their work. This is not unique to IT.

[Dave]

Labour crisis. The West needs immigration, not because they love foreign people, but because there are jobs that need to be filled that are either not being taken by the domestic population or there is just not enough people to take these positions.

Wages have been declining in the United States for over 30 years, about 15 million people are officially unemployed, and more than one in four of men aged 16 to 64 not in school are not employed. Labor shortage my ass.

Not really talking about this. Everyone is having unemployment issues with this economic crisis, but I'm talking about the labour crisis, especially when the economy was doing well.

Japan's unemployment rate for the past decade was more than double its postwar average.

Yes, I already stated this point. So, start having children.

Fair enough. The conservative and nationalistic Japanese would also probably respond well to a "babies for the fatherland" campaign. The present Japanese (people, not government) view on depopulation seems to be that Japan is too crowded and that a little shrinking would be nice.

[Suska]

In the 70's and early 80's after much of the first growth wave in Saudi was complete hundreds of thousands of Western workers the Saudis had imported and kept in compounds were refused visas and there was no immigration option. Westerners who had built the airline, the construction companies, the infrastructure, and damn near everything were kicked out of their homes - many of these people had lived there near a decade and made real homes and communities within their little walled cities.

Thats where I grew up from around 2 to 11 years old.

I don't think it odd at all to kick them out of Scandinavia, especially in light of some of these terrible incidents and their cultural isolation, and lack of integration. I guarantee they'd want to do the same thing.

[Eauz]

Oxy and Dave, you both sound like liberal socialists.

There is a lot of fraud going on by employers to create a "need" for foriegn workers who are conviently cheaper then local candidates. In my new field for example firms actually create fake jobs, with extremely low pay (by industry standards) when no one bites they go to the goverment and request J-1 Visas for their Indian compatriots who they bring over and basically use them as slave labour and reap huge profits from their work. This is not unique to IT.

The problem isn't immigrants at all. The problem you have is with capitalism itself. If you provide jobs that are low paying and people will still take these jobs, then obviously, there was still a demand for such levels of pay. Just because you don't like the pay, doesn't mean you have to complain about foreign people. The companies are providing such paying jobs and whether or not you take it, has no connection to whether a foreign person exist in the country. The company is only attempting to be competitive within the market to provide low prices to consumers and high profits for share holders.

Wages have been declining in the United States for over 30 years, about 15 million people are officially unemployed, and more than one in four of men aged 16 to 64 not in school are not employed. Labor shortage my ass.

In regard to wages, what does that matter? The wage is part of the cost side of producing a commodity/service. The lower the cost side of your spreadsheet, the better, as you gain profits and provide for consumer demands. As for the unemployed, this is an issue with capitalism again. The government doesn't tell others who they should employ. This isn't the Soviet Union, where you are given a job by the government. There are plenty of jobs available in the United States. Just because you don't like the pay, doesn't mean it's fair to complain about foreigners. I find it strange that people say there are no jobs out there, but everywhere on the interest, when you go to job searches, there are a LOT of jobs that many people could perform.

Fair enough. The conservative and nationalistic Japanese would also probably respond well to a "babies for the fatherland" campaign. The present Japanese (people, not government) view on depopulation seems to be that Japan is too crowded and that a little shrinking would be nice.

Don't be so naive. Back in the 1950's and 60's, you found a lot of Japanese working for long hours and having very few moments to see their family. Although this idea still exists, a lot of younger people in Japan hate having to work these long hours and want more free time for themselves. The long hours worked by these employees in the past, helped develop Japan in to the second largest economy. Add to this the reduction in population, this doesn't bode well for continued economic success. They need more children, but the current structure of Japanese economy isn't very flexible for having a lot of children, especially since the cost of living is rising in Japan (need for a second income) and the lack of family connection. The last thing Japan needs is less people in the country, since it would lose a LOT in terms of its economy. The environment now is not good for encouraging population growth or economic growth. They really should encourage paid maternity leave (for all women), job security and accessible child care programs (for example, a number of the very large companies who hire women, have child care programs in the same building that the women work. Then at the end of the day, the women can pick up their children without problems or worries about leaving early.

[Oxymoron]

Just because you don't like the pay, doesn't mean you have to complain about foreign people.

Devaluing a mans labour is not something I advocate, and using slave labour is so 19th century.

The companies are providing such paying jobs and whether or not you take it, has no connection to whether a foreign person exist in the country.

The Client Companies are paying top dollar for these human resources, while the imported resources get a joke salaries compared to what their talent agent is making the ones who gain the contracts from the clients. This is fraud which hurts the American worker and our economy.

The company is only attempting to be competitive within the market to provide low prices to consumers and high profits for share holders.

That is not the case.

[Eauz]

Devaluing a mans labour is not something I advocate, and using slave labour is so 19th century.

This has been the case of capitalism from day one. Just because you don't like working for a lower wage, doesn't mean you get a better wage. Either take it or find something else.

The Client Companies are paying top dollar for these human resources, while the imported resources get a joke salaries compared to what their talent agent is making the ones who gain the contracts from the clients. This is fraud which hurts the American worker and our economy.

Fraud? This is competition. If you can increase profits by reducing the cost of producing these services (labour), then all the power to you!

That is not the case.

What is? All I'm hearing from you is whining about how you think you should get a higher wage, just because you think it is wrong that you can't find higher paying jobs. Quit your job, go get an education, search for a better position with your experience and skills you learn.

[Oxymoron]

This has been the case of capitalism from day one. Just because you don't like working for a lower wage, doesn't mean you get a better wage. Either take it or find something else.

Why should I take it? If I have the ability not to take it? As an American I have the capability to change things I dont like. I dont believe in Anything goes internationalism.

Fraud? This is competition. If you can increase profits by reducing the cost of producing these services (labour), then all the power to you

Again, the US would never allow them the Visas if there were Americans capable of doing the work(They are lying to the goverment). So this loophole must be closed, and there are many such loopholes which need to be closed. There are majour players trying to create a "need" for this type of BS. The people of nations should not allow themselves to be sold out by powerful interests.

What is? All I'm hearing from you is whining about how you think you should get a higher wage, just because you think it is wrong that you can't find higher paying jobs. Quit your job, go get an education, search for a better position with your experience and skills you learn.

My current occupation is highly skilled and I did get education for it, I will not stand idly by while American jobs are stolen.

[Eauz]

Why should I take it? If I have the ability not to take it? As an American I have the capability to change things I dont like. I dont believe in Anything goes internationalism.

You don't have to take it. You can move onto another position that pays better. No one is forcing you to stay at that position or even take the position with a lower wage.

Again, the US would never allow them the Visas if there were Americans capable of doing the work(They are lying to the goverment). So this loophole must be closed, and there are many such loopholes which need to be closed. There are majour players trying to create a "need" for this type of BS.

Well, then people should have taken the position in the first place. If the guy from India is willing to take the position and LIVE in the United States (cost of living), then obviously an American is equally capable of taking the position that was offered. If they took the position, then they wouldn't have had the opportunity to go to this loophole and an American WOULD have a job.

My current occupation is highly skilled and I did get education for it, I will not stand idly by while American jobs are stolen.

A lot of skilled positions are no longer in existence, due to development of technology. Tell that to the baker, specialty cafe owners and such. Many skilled positions are now done by minimum wage employees (McDonalds, Tim Horton's, etc.). Again, the foreigners are not the problem, it is the economic policies of the nation that only encourage such actions to exist. Complaining about foreigners only makes the situation worse and directs anger towards the wrong issues at hand. Direct it against the economic system.

[Oxymoron]

You don't have to take it. You can move onto another position that pays better. No one is forcing you to stay at that position or even take the position with a lower wage.

Ok Eauz thank you for your opinion.

Well, then people should have taken the position in the first place. If the guy from India is willing to take the position and LIVE in the United States (cost of living), then obviously an American is equally capable of taking the position that was offered. If they took the position, then they wouldn't have had the opportunity to go to this loophole and an American WOULD have a job.

You obviously dont understand, perhaps its my fault for explaining it inproperly.

[Eauz]

I understand well. The problem is, you're blaming the Indian guy for taking the opportunity to come over. Blame the economic system that allows such policies to exist, because in the end, the company is interested in making big profits and if it can get away with reducing cost of production, great for them. But immigrants are not the issue or problem.

[Oxymoron]

understand well. The problem is, you're blaming the Indian guy for taking the opportunity to come over.

I am not blaming him, but I dont want him here.

Blame the economic system that allows such policies to exist, because in the end, the company is interested in making big profits and if it can get away with reducing cost of production, great for them.

They are doing so by ILLEGAL methods.

But immigrants are not the issue or problem.

They are indeed an issue and a problem especially if they are not willing to conform to the Nations predominent culture as is going on in Europe.

[Eauz]

I am not blaming him, but I dont want him here.

He didn't have to be here, if the American actually took up the company on the offer of employment. You're only being delusional if you think you deserve a higher paying wage. If you don't like the pay, leave and find another position. Otherwise, it is obvious that an Indian can work and live at the same position at a lower wage, so an American should be equally capable of working and living at the same wage.

They are doing so by ILLEGAL methods.

If it were illegal, then it wouldn't be in existence as a practice of business. It is quite legal and works within the concept of competition. Just because the American worker think he/she deserves to be paid $20/hr (or whatever it may be), so they can have that perfect house, car and life is once again delusional. If you don't like the pay, then don't take the job. Someone else is willing to take it. This is why temp job agencies exist, so that companies don't have to pay a full-time employee with benefits and other forms of pay. These are all standard practices of business.

They are indeed an issue and a problem especially if they are not willing to conform to the Nations predominent culture as is going on in Europe.

The West promotes itself as multicultural, despite the fact that this is a lie. However, if I am a guy from India and have been offered a position in America or Europe, I'm under the assumption that America and Europe are about multiculturalism and thus I can live in my own culture, while living in a developed nation. Why not go? It's not his fault that you continue to vote for the same multicultural policies and politicians. Once again, you're only making more idiotic excuses to place blame on a group that isn't really involved in the root issue. You vote and create the present society, they only arrive to live and work here.

[Oxymoron]

He didn't have to be here, if the American actually took up the company on the offer of employment. You're only being delusional if you think you deserve a higher paying wage.

What part of fake position dont you understand??? They create a position out of thin air, just to get a J1 visa handed to them so they can import relative slave labour. If you even agree to the low ball offer they dont have a job for you. Do you understand this concept?

The West promotes itself as multicultural, despite the fact that this is a lie. However, if I am a guy from India and have been offered a position in America or Europe, I'm under the assumption that America and Europe are about multiculturalism and thus I can live in my own culture, while living in a developed nation. Why not go?

Again I dont blame them for wanting to leave their hell holes, I blame them for creating hell holes where they go.

It's not his fault that you continue to vote for the same multicultural policies and politicians. Once again, you're only making more idiotic excuses to place blame on a group that isn't really involved in the root issue. You vote and create the present society, they only arrive to live and work here.

I am not making excuses, I am actively trying to stop these practices.