[Donna]

Shit, give the Palestinians all of Jerusalem. In this case it is in the absolute best interests of Israel. The Palestinians will probably never stop threatening Israel's security and stability until Jerusalem is theirs and reclaimed for Islam. This 1967 lineation of resolving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is daft. Israel will never become a real nation unless it can exist peacefully with the Palestinians and its regional neighbors.

It will take a brave government to announce the country's decision to remove all West Bank settlements and prepare to offer every inch of Jerusalem to them. None of this joint-controlled, UN zone bullshit. It would be healthy for Israel to make such a much needed divorce - if it sparked civil unrest, even violent conflict among Israelis, so be it. It's an inevitable national necessity. Neo-Zionism and religion in Israeli politics must come to a complete end. It is a failed direction and it has only threatened Israel by making the Palestinians intractable to the Israeli state.

[danholo]

Donald,

You're serious, aren't you? The Haredim of Jerusalem wouldn't care (they don't recognize this blasphemous entity as it is)!

[Donna]

I'm not talking about the Haredim. There is a nationalist religious movement among Jews in Israel and abroad that has fused Zionism with religious fundamentalism.

[danholo]

What are you getting at? Demanding for such an end is futile, as you know. Haredim, of course, wouldn't care under whose rule Jerusalem would be from a religious perspective. The national religious is an existential part to the state. How would Israel's situation improve without them? Where would they go? Jerusalem won't be given to the Arabs. You are saying that Israelis would let it go?

[Tailz]

Not to bring the topic back or anything... but a realistic peace is pretty obvious. If you look at the Camp David accords and the subsequent Taba summit you can see that there really wasn't that much of a difference between what Israel proposed and what Palestine proposed. Honestly, we just need the right governments in order to bring it back. I honestly think that if Kadima wins today, there is a chance for peace assuming that Hamas follows suite.

I would be very amazed if Kadima could form a government. Their intention of negotiating peace with the Palestinians does not appeal to the religious or right wing parties. Lukid has enough of a majority, and the right policy to be able to tempt the other right wing religious parties into a coalition.

But if Kadima does manage to form a government, it will be fragile and the status que will continue – with the government not being strong enough to push forwards with any creditable peace deal because of the instability to maintain a government against right wing religious party seats.

Just as a point of reference w.r.t. a Palestinian state, here is a map estimation of Olmert's most recent proposal (obviously approximate and based on leaked info):

Hey dude, where you been?

That map looks quite interesting. Although the area around Jerusalem looks contradictory (and a mess). Some areas marked for transfer to the Palestinian state are also marked as areas regarded by Israel as not being part of the west bank.

I can see that wiggle border is going to create a lot of problems in the future, with so many parts that poke into the Palestinian territory – and the area about Jerusalem, oh that’s going to be a map makers worse nightmare.

The corridor I see will also create problems, such as Israel opening or closing the corridor upon a whim.

[Donna]

Haredim, of course, wouldn't care under whose rule Jerusalem would be from a religious perspective.

Good for them. The Haredim aren't really my concern, though.

The national religious is an existential part to the state. How would Israel's situation improve without them? Where would they go?

An 'existential part' of Israel? These sheepwolves and their inability to accept Palestinian statehood poses an existential threat to Israel. I don't want them eradicated, but I want them politically declawed. I do not ever want to see Judea and Samaria incorporated into Israel. Sharon had the right idea in turning his back on the national religious and the schism within Likud was a positive development.

Jerusalem won't be given to the Arabs. You are saying that Israelis would let it go?[/

Obviously, such a decision would be met with relentless controversy and resistance. But it's necessary and I believe Israel will eventually have a sincere government willing to do something domestically unpopular in order to preserve the future of the Jewish State.

[Tailz]

An 'existential part' of Israel? These sheepwolves and their inability to accept Palestinian statehood poses an existential threat to Israel. I don't want them eradicated, but I want them politically declawed. I do not ever want to see Judea and Samaria incorporated into Israel. Sharon had the right idea in turning his back on the national religious and the schism within Likud was a positive development.

I think your pretty much on the right track here. The national religious groups with the settlers stir up the bulk of Israel’s problems with the Palestinians by trying to swallow more and more of Judea and Samaria into Israel itself. Their intention is to pull in these areas into Israel, which in turn would also pull in the Arab inhabitants – unless offcourse they also wish to purge those annexed lands of Arabs.

An extra element I think people miss, is that if peace was to go ahead and all those settlements were withdrawn – that’s going to create a very large and volatile group of disgruntled ex-settlers in the Israeli state. That tension is going to materialise into action, if we can use the previous action of settlement evictions to go by.

[Donna]

An extra element I think people miss, is that if peace was to go ahead and all those settlements were withdrawn – that’s going to create a very large and volatile group of disgruntled ex-settlers in the Israeli state. That tension is going to materialise into action, if we can use the previous action of settlement evictions to go by.

Of course. Domestically it will tear Israel apart, but it's absolutely necessary. Unlike the Arabs, they'll get over it.

[Tailz]

Of course. Domestically it will tear Israel apart, but it's absolutely necessary. Unlike the Arabs, they'll get over it.

I don’t necessarily disagree that the Israeli’s will get over it. I think they will have a very hard time with the settler groups, I would not be surprised if some sort of violent underground movement sprang up, or if those groups tried to sabotage events later by attacking the Palestinians trying to get antagonise Palestinian resistance groups like Islamic Jihad into a revenge attack that Israel would then itself revenge, and spawn off the violence again which was undo separation to create the two states.

The die hard settlers will be a major problem for Israel.