[Proctor]

Seeing as most Jordanians would consider themselves to be just that, is it right to call them Palestinian? I wouldn't appreciate being called "Australian", because we're practically the same anyway, right?

But the real issue is one that Warren actually raised himself. If Gaza is 99% Palestinian, and the West Bank is 83% Palestinian, and there would be a substantial majority in the Golan Heights as well, why are they part of Israel? Parts where everyone is all mixed around eg. Jeruselum, would probably be best off UN administered, as has been suggested in some of the more serious official solutions to the problem.

[Seamus Warren]

Seeing as most Jordanians would consider themselves to be just that, is it right to call them Palestinian? I wouldn't appreciate being called "Australian", because we're practically the same anyway, right?

Jordanian Kings have said so themselves - "Jordan is Palestine". The country of Jordan comprises most of the land of "Palestine". The great majority of Jordan's population is "Palestinian", the Jordanian army is comprised of a majority of "Palestinians", and most of the Arabs living in the Israeli administered territories hold Jordanian passports. And the 1970 Jordanian-PLO war was considered a civil war and recorded as such.

If Gaza is 99% Palestinian, and the West Bank is 83% Palestinian, and there would be a substantial majority in the Golan Heights as well, why are they part of Israel?

Because several Arab armies attacked Israel with the intention of wiping them off the face of the Earth. If the Arabs had settled for the UN partition plan of 1947 and did not attack Israel then there may have been a second "Palestinian" state as this map indicates:

The 1947 partition seems to reflect the majority population of each region. By now a Jewish and Arab state could have been sitting side by side for more than fifty years.

BTW: Jews are not allowed to live in Jordan at all are they? I think the same goes for Saudi Arabia and other Arab states. Nobody is complaining about this of course. Arabs can live in Israel though.

In addition to this why is Arafat only after a percentage of territory on the Western side of the river Jordan and not an equal percentage of territory on the Eastern side? After all, modern Jordan and Israel BOTH lie on historic "Palestine" don't they?

Parts where everyone is all mixed around eg. Jeruselum, would probably be best off UN administered, as has been suggested in some of the more serious official solutions to the problem.

Jerusalam was to be Internationalised in 1947 but the Arabs would not accept it. They stuffed it all up when the did this:

[Sapper]

It basically comes down to this: Whether or not Jordan is Palestine or not is irrelevent; the Palestinians want the west bank or they will continue their suicide bombings... and there's nothing the zionists can do about it.

[Proctor]

You actually didn't say much that is new in that post Seamus. But I agree, if the 1947 plan had been accepted, there wouldn't be a problem. But the Palestinians turned it down. Which was stupid, but oh well. But now, that same agreement is no longer acceptable to Israel, while the Palestinians want just that. I don't know, both Arafat and Sharon are unreasonable as hell, so I don't think there will be an agreement any time soon. But still, here to hoping. *crosses fingers*

As for no jews in Saudi Arabia and Jordan, I didn't know that, but I don't doubt it. They have such shitty governments nothing surprises me any more.

[Efrem Da King]

The first article posted here is the most one-sided argument I've ever seen. If terrorist are mainly doing it to be free then why are the amount of terror attacks increased during peace talks? You certainly fail to mention that.

Also not mentioning the palestinians left at the request of other arab armies to help them push israel into the sea.
In my opinion these things need to be accomplished for there to be lasting peace in the middle east.

1)Yasser arafat gives up power all together. Democratic gov put in place.
2)Israel pulls out of all settlements.
3)New palestinian gov cracks down on milita.
4)Many programs put in place to help israelis and palestinians grow respect for each other. (UN run schools useing maps with israel on them would help with this)

[Eternal]

In my very humble, and perhaps uninformed opinion, the terrorism will not stop when the west bank and gaza strip are withdrawn from. The Palestinians rejected the original "two state" proposal, where the Gaza strip and West Bank formed a nation seperate from Jordan and Israel, because they refused to allow the Israelis ANY land in the Middle East. While their claims of calling it home are well founded, so are the Israeli claims.

There's only one true answer that's fair. Coexistance. Annexing the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and Golan Heights into Israel, making all those Arabs living within those boarders Israeli citizens with full citizen's rights, and allowing them to work things out through democratic reform. They can share the same home, what name it has is Irrelevant, a Name is a Name after all.

The PLO is in essence a Terrorist organization, and despite this, I have some respect for their ideals. Terrorism, however, is a means to an end. I simply disagree with that means, and therefor, don't believe they deserve the end. When they approach the problem from a more mature standpoint, rather than pitching a fit and committing acts of violence to provoke retaliation from the Israelis...well, I have an odd feeling the rest of the world will force Israel to approach the problem more maturely as well. Of course, that's what's recently been happening, isn't it?

Seperating them doesn't solve the problem, it simply makes it simpler to determine where one side begins and ends.

[Seamus Warren]

I reckon Jordan already is the "Palestinian" Arab state. The first ruler of Jordan (Abdullah) wanted to name the new nation "The Hashemite Kindom of Palestine" but the British wouldn't let him.

[Seamus Warren]

The first article posted here is the most one-sided argument I've ever seen. If terrorist are mainly doing it to be free then why are the amount of terror attacks increased during peace talks? You certainly fail to mention that.

Also not mentioning the palestinians left at the request of other arab armies to help them push israel into the sea.
In my opinion these things need to be accomplished for there to be lasting peace in the middle east.

1)Yasser arafat gives up power all together. Democratic gov put in place.
2)Israel pulls out of all settlements.
3)New palestinian gov cracks down on milita.
4)Many programs put in place to help israelis and palestinians grow respect for each other. (UN run schools useing maps with israel on them would help with this)

Here is what a friend had to say in response to an email from a defender of terrorism:

Did YOU ever stop to think that the "occupation" that you are referring to is nothing but a deliberate political myth? Apparently not.

1) In all of recorded history, there has never been an independent country known as 'Palestine'. Ever. The Arabs there have no separate culture, language, or even a history of their own. So, the Israelis could not be 'occupying' Palestine because it doesn't exist. Also, in order for Israel to 'occupy' the land, it would have to have been taken from an established country. This never happened. (Think about this -- if 'Palestine' already exists, so that Israel could be 'occupying' it, then why are they still trying to establish it?)

2) The PLO was started in 1964 -- not even 40 years ago -- for the express and stated purpose of destroying Israel, NOT to give 'liberation' to 'palestinians' (who never existed as a separate group and are still indistinguishable from every other Arab) and not to create another state next to Israel.

It was always intended to REPLACE Israel! Read their charter (and note the date) for yourself. It can be found at many places; an official English translation can be found at: http://www.iris.org.il/plochart.htm)

3) As far as the disputed territories are concerned, the 'West Bank' (that term was first used in 1977!) was captured and OCCUPIED by Jordan during the Israeli War of Independence. It was never intended by anyone to be a separate Arab country; it was not even intended by the British and the UN to be part of Jordan and was not included as part of their land grant from the Palestinian Mandate. In fact, The 'West Bank' was never officially part of Jordan; even the other Arab countries never acknowledged Jordan's ownership. It was OCCUPIED by Jordan from 1948-1967 when the Jews who had lived there for centuries were forced to leave and it was very sparcely populated by Arabs during those 19 years when Jordan annexed that land. Most of the Arabs that live there now, 'settled' there AFTER the Jews came back.

4) Just for the record, Arafat first got 'official' recognition for the creation of 'palestine' on that land in 1974 at the Rabat Conference BECAUSE he promised that the PLO would finally, once and for all, destroy Israel. The combined Arab leaders made that decision, NOT Jordan's king (who had to be bribed in order to agree to it), and it is all in black and white for anyone to read. You might try this site:
http://www.workmall.com/wfb2001/jordan/ ... conference -- it is not Jewish/Israeli -- so maybe you'll be more able to accept what it says.

These points don't even make note of the fact that Israel would never have 'occupied' the disputed territories at all if the combined Arab countries had just accepted its existance and not tried on multiple occasions to try and destroy it by armed might. More importantly, the Arabs have been slaughtering Jews long before the State of Israel was established and certainly before there was any talk of 'occupation'. (The only occupiers of Palestine before Israel was established were the British and the Turks and there were frequent Arab 'uprisings' against the Jews without the excuse of 'occupation'.)

The Israeli Arabs who live in the most poverty live under the Palestinian Authority and NOT because of Israel' 'occupation'. It is because their leaders use the millions of dollars either for weapons or to put in their private bank accounts. Arafat has millions of dollars 'put away' in Switzerland and he didn't get that money because he worked hard at a business. (See Forbes article on the world's richest people at: http://www.forbes.com/global/2003/0317/014.html) Except of course if you consider murdering Jews to be a legitimate business. I don't. And, when the Arab leaders put their money towards destruction rather than infrastructure, it is no wonder that living conditions are hard. If they tried planting trees with the money rather than blowing up buses or paying people to become murderers, then living conditions would improve enormously. (Speaking of trees, Israel is the only country in the WORLD that ended the twentieth century with more trees than were there at the beginning.) Israelis are concerned with BUILDING their country, not destroying. The same can't be said for the 'palestinians' whose sole aim is DESTROYING Israel. If they ever succeeded in their despicable goal, and no one could blame the Jews for their situation, then no one in the world would give a damn for them or their living conditions.

Indeed, the vast majority of Arabs that call themselves 'palestinians' are not even native to Israel or even the disputed territories. Arafat himself was born and raised in Cairo, Egypt. They came to Israel because living conditions have always been far better there than in any one of the 22 Arab countries. If you want the actual numbers, I will be glad to supply them. (They are available at many places -- not only Israeli ones -- and I have them in my personal files.)

The 'suicide' bombers are not responding to living in poverty or under
'occupation'; that is nothing but an excuse. Indeed, it is just another myth.

1) If you read through psychology texts, you'll find that mass murder as an outcome of frustration is not even psychologically-sound theory. Why don't you try thinking about it in another area. If Hispanic people started killing Americans along the Mexican border and spouting this same excuse, no one would give it legitimacy -- psychologically or any other way. If they decided to become 'suicide' bombers because they felt that their land was occupied and were 'frustrated' at its loss and started to bomb ordinary people going about their everyday lives, do you think for one minute that those murders would be excused? The very idea is ridiculous.

2) These murderers are fanatics who have been recruited because their leaders have found that they can get what they want by using terror tactics. The Arabs start indoctrinating them to aspire to be killers from a very early age. Their despicable teachings (where they teach hatred of America as well as Israel can be found at many places. I suggest you check out PMW- Palestinian Media Watch which gives actual translations. It is found at: http://www.pmw.org.il/new/)

3) Many, if not all, of the recruiters (and some of the bombers) are in fact college-educated (that is also true for the four Arabs who died blowing up over 3000 Americans at the World Trade Center.) And don't forget the many Arabs who have considered it 'heroic' to kill other Americans -- are you old enough to remember Sirhan Sirhan who shot Robert Kennedy in cold blood? He was both from a well-to-do family and was college-educated.

4) If 'suicide' bombing were a natural response to living in poverty, or even under an occupying power, then why has no other group anywhere in the world turned to it? Desperate poverty and much more horrible regimes exist all over the world (actually, most of the Arab countries qualify.) The people in American ghettos live in far more poverty than Israeli Arabs(though not the Arabs in Arab countries) and they would not receive any 'understanding' from the victims of violence were they to decide to 'express their frustration' by going into other neighborhoods and setting off bombs where they would kill and maim the most number of innocent people (very often children.)

I guarantee that you and your friends would not be so understanding of these excuses if you, your friends and family were attacked by bombs while you were riding to school (like in Haifa a few weeks ago), dancing in a disco or eating pizza at a Sbarro's pizzaria (in Tel Aviv last year) or just eating dinner at your own table (as in Netanya which borders the Mediterranean seven months ago.) Many of these bombs are not even set off in the disputed territories (as if that would be an excuse for blatant murder.) These bombs are deliberately aimed at the unarmed civilian population where they can do the most damage. I gave the places of those examples because many of these attacks did not even take place in the disputed territories, although the murders shouldn't be excused even when they do. These terrorists are so barbaric that many times the nails put in the bombs are pre-coated in a toxin like arsenic so that the doctors will be unable to stop the bleeding. A suicide bomber is someone who attacks soldiers when that is the only way to try and stop them; these people are nothing more than mass murderers of innocent people who have done nothing except live where some people don't want them.

Unlike you, I am not just depending on what I read in the papers (which are an extremely unreliable source of information on anything) or even so-called eye-witness accounts. (Read anything about 'eye-witness testimony' and you'll discover that it is the LEAST reliable form of evidence even though it's the most easily accepted. There are many places that demonstrate that; one picked at random is: http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dorf/20010516.html) This is true even when people are not deliberately trying to lie (which happens very often -- unlike the supposed motives for becoming a human bomb, THAT is a psychological fact!) I have lived in Israel and seen for myself what goes on there and the living conditions of the Arabs in Israel is nothing like what you believe. I might add that the living conditions of the Arabs in any one of the Arab countries is much worse than anywhere in Israel, but you are saying and doing nothing about them.

And just what 'freedoms' are the Israeli Arabs being deprived of, anyway, that you and they claim have made them so desperate that they are willing to sacrifice their own children in order to kill as many Israelis as possible? Before the present intifada, their standard of living was on a par with other Israelis (and far, far better than their Arab brethran living in any one of the 22 Arab countries.) They certainly have freedom of speech, even hate-speech which would be forbidden in many countries including the US (and Denmark!) They have freedom of worship -- no one has tried to stop them from practicing Islam, even when the fundamentalist Islam that is being practiced is openly dangerous to others (and not only Jews!) They have freedom of the press. Indeed, Israel is the only country in the Middle East (and many other places) where you could openly call for overthrowing the government of the country that you live in and not be arrested for it. So, just what 'freedom' are they being deprived of that makes their lives so terrible that they feel they have no choice but to use a machine gun on a three-year old girl in her own bed and her mother and then brag about it?

Israelis do not go to school and learn to hate Arabs. They don't dream of getting old enough to go out and kill Arabs, either. This is not Israeli government propaganda that I am stating. It is what the Israelis are saying and doing themselves. (Check out this poll of Israeli youth as to their own aspirations at: http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/jewish ... _Youth.asp and compare it to any 'palestinian' site that you choose -- including every one that is listed on the JWD.) You can't find an Israeli site that has the words "Death to the Arabs" on it. (You can check out my "Friends of Israel" page if you want to start searching.) Even the most radical Jewish groups don't do that. There is not a single Israeli song that celebrates death to anyone including Arabs and you (and no one else) has ever seen Israelis dancing in the streets and celebrating the death of any Arab. Israelis don't even celebrate the deaths of known terrorists and they grieve for the unavoidable deaths of Arab civilians (which occur only because the Arabs continually conduct their attacks or hide out after them among a civilian population.)

All of this information is available for you to evaluate for yourself if you just take the time to do so. And yet you go blindly on believing what you want without even stopping to question it and even attacking me for something that you know nothing about. Since you obviously will not believe anything if you think it is written by someone who is pro-Israel and/or Jewish, why don't you read Joseph Farah's articles on Palestine (he is an Arab-American); you could start with "The Jews took no one's land" at: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/artic ... E_ID=27338 You could get lots of reading on this subject from a wide variety of authors including Farah (many of whom are not Jewish) at this site: http://www.sullivan-county.com/id4/list.htm. But please don't ignore the outstanding articles at The Emperor's Clothes (run by a Catholic who used to be pro-palestinian!) which is found at: http://emperors-clothes.com/gilwhite/Israel.htm (While you are there, I strongly suggest that you read some of their other articles.)

Think about this for a minute. If Rachel Corrie had decided that she didn't want a house bulldozed in her home town of Seattle for any reason at all and decided to protest by sitting down in front of the moving bulldozer, no one would consider her act anything but stupidly reckless. Yet, all she had to do was go over and join a group of people who were protesting the tearing down of a house known to be used by terrorists (and where guns and ammunition were found) and she became a 'martyr' to people like you. These are the very same people who prayed for Saddam Hussein and the same people who danced in the streets after the WTC bombing. They are the same ones who celebrate the deaths of their children in the same way that the Incas celebrated performing human sacrifice on their children! And you say that I shouldn't report hate on my site? What do you suggest that I report? Israel's accomplishments, perhaps? Maybe I should add another page for them as there are hundreds that I can think of offhand. (I can't report the Arab accomplishments; all they are concerned with is killing and destruction. Even their poems and songs of full of it -- in both senses.)

However, even if you are completely right about the Arabs losing their 'freedom' to the Israeli 'occupation', it doesn't explain why people like you are up in arms about it. Countries' borders change constantly. (Take a look at this site http://www.euratlas.com/time1.htm which shows the changing face of what is now Europe and the Middle East over the past 2000 years and you'll see that it's very arbitrary as well as fluid.) For that matter, people lose their homes for many reasons, sometimes through their fault and more often in circumstances beyond their control. What are you doing about the millions of people in the world who are living in situations much worse than that of the 'palestinians'. That includes the millions of homeless people that live on the world's streets. Not to mention the multitudes of people who live in terrible poverty even though they technically have homes. And the countless people all over the world whose lives are spent under governments that they didn't choose and don't want. You're not writing letters or protesting the 'occupation' or poverty of any other people but the 'palestinians' . And none of the other 'humanitarians' are doing so either. Frankly, that makes you and your friends come across as nothing more than hypocrites. You focus so much time and attention on a group because they are politically popular and ignore the real victims of the very thing you are complaining about. The Arabs are the PERPETRATORS of hate and terror and you are supporting them!

Why do you not have a single word of pity for the thousands of Israelis who have been left permanently crippled because of the barbarism of Arab terrorists or brutally slaughtered while peacefully going about their daily lives? But, you manage to 'understand' their murderers! Would you like their individual names of the Israeli victims? Perhaps you want to see their photographs. I'll be glad to supply you with either or both. (And plenty of these come from so-called 'objective' sources, i.e. non-Jewish. I'm only saying that because you have obviously decided -- with no proof at all -- that if something is pro-Israel, it is nothing but a lie. This is doubly ironic because you are promoting the propaganda of some of the worst political liars since the Nazis controlled Germany and most of Europe. Not surprising considering they are using some of the Nazis best propaganda methods.) Millions of dollars were collected for the families of victims of the World Trade Center bombing but instead of offering aid, people like you advocate boycotts against Israelis, many of whom are permanently crippled by Arab bombers or left destitute and orphaned. These people are not even soldiers who at least get disability benefits if they are injured in the line of duty. But, you only talk about 'understanding' their attackers. And make nasty statements to people like me who write about the Arab hate and expose it for people to look at.

In point of fact, though, I find it very ironic that you should accuse me and my site of being full of hate, of all things. I started the 'Friends of Israel' page precisely because I was getting sick from being constantly bombarded by all the blatant hate on the sites that I examined for the JWD. I found a group of sites that are NOT about hate at all; in fact, not a single one is promoting hate although many of them are exposing it. (And just for the record, I read every article on every site that I report. I don't usually have to examine them very closely any more because they are all saying the same lies; indeed, they often use the same 'source'.) There is no hate being promoted on the Friends' page (or any pro-Israel page, for that matter); only on those of Israel's enemies. Are you writing letters to them complaining about all the hate on their sites? Of course not. Most people would be able to take that fact and realize that the hate that you object to is directed AT Israel/Jews and does not come from them. It is unfortunate that you do not seem able to see what is right in front of you.

So, in a direct answer to your question -- yes, the anti-Israel sites are telling outright lies. This is not something that I 'believe' but a fact that I arrived at after many years of intense studying. Some of the people who run the anti-Israel sites are deliberately fabricating their stories and many more are just repeating what they've heard or read without bothering to learn the truth for themselves. You are a good example of the latter. However, each and every one of those lies has been disproven over and over again (but some people go right on believing what they want despite hard evidence to the contrary.) For example, every single case of an Israeli 'atrocity' is based on nothing but hearsay and subjective 'reports'. They are just like the stories that Jews use human blood in their baking -- deliberate lies meant to arouse hatred (and too often successful.) There is no hard evidence (and again, so-called eye-witness testimony does not count as hard evidence) of ANY 'atrocities' being done by the Israelis. Unless of course, you agree with the whining complaints of the 'humiliations' supposedly suffered at checkpoints and consider them 'human rights violations'. I go through similar 'humiliations' every time I board a plane and neither they nor I would have to endure tight security checks if it wasn't for the activities of ARAB terrorists!

I can back up every statement that I've made (as usual, I might add.) Since I've already examined all of the sites on the JWD (both pro- and anti-Israel) and you haven't, I suggest that you do so before you write me again. Maybe then you'd have written something worth reading instead of more of the same lies and propaganda (along with your snide cracks) that I've read thousands of times, to the point of nausea. Of course, maybe I'm giving you too much credit when I suggest that you take this letter as an opportunity to find out the truth for yourself. But, maybe not. I'd love to be pleasantly surprised and learn that you checked on my suggested links (both the specific ones mentioned in the letter and others that there is no space to include.) Maybe you won't take the easy way out and just stick to your previous opinions without bothering to examine any other point of view than your own (or even examining your own opinions.)

If you'd like to communicate with people who used to believe as you do but who had the intellectual integrity to learn some hard facts, I can supply you with their names, too. As I said, occasionally I have been pleasantly surprised. It would be nice if you showed yourself to be someone whom I respect. Of course, the choice is totally yours.

[ihavenoname]

I especially liked his timeline-



did you notice the blank spot between 1976 and 1981?

He conveniently forgot to mention the Yom Kippor War.

[CasX]

What, in your opinion, was the effect of the 1973 Yom Kippur War on the Palestinian issue?

[GandalfTheGrey]

I can't report the Arab accomplishments; all they are concerned with is killing and destruction. Even their poems and songs of full of it -- in both senses.

I was going to address some of the rubbish in this very long letter, but after reading this, I knew there was no point. I sincerely hope that the rantings of such racists are no longer included in this forum.

[Fouad Shoubaki]

Jordan is "Palestne" so there is no need for another "Palestinian" state.

Do you think the "Palestinians" are the indigenous people of the region?

Let us put 2 things very clear here :

1) Rhetorical game-play with the word "Palestine" has no value in assigning land to it's native inhabitants . The only people who are not native is Euro-import and considers themselves Jewish .

2) The Palestinian peoples are most definetly the indigenous people of the region :

Palestine became a predominately Arab and Islamic country by the end of the seventh century. Almost immediately thereafter its boundaries and its characteristics - including its name in Arabic, Filastin - became known to the entire Islamic world, as much for its fertility and beauty as for its religious significance...In 1516, Palestine became a province of the Ottoman Empire, but this made it no less fertile, no less Arab or Islamic...Sixty percent of the population was in agriculture; the balance was divided between townspeople and a relatively small nomadic group. All these people believed themselves to belong in a land called Palestine, despite their feelings that they were also members of a large Arab nation...Despite the steady arrival in Palestine of Jewish colonists after 1882, it is important to realize that not until the few weeks immediately preceding the establishment of Israel in the spring of 1948 was there ever anything other than a huge Arab majority. For example, the Jewish population in 1931 was 174,606 against a total of 1,033,314

Edward Said in the Question Of Palestine-Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict-Jews For Justice In The Middle East

Ironically, that same year, 1947, the Arab members of the United Nations supported the partition of the Indian sub-continent and the creation of the new, predominantly Muslim state of Pakistan.

Unless the Pakistani state would have been predominatly say ...... Bosnian-Muslim , there is little irony left .

Jordanian Kings have said so themselves - "Jordan is Palestine"

Appeal to authority fallacy here ?

As for the long letter , every time I see Jojo Farah Im reminded of Jack Bernstein only without a point . The man needs a shrink instead of a publisher .

I would love to respond to the doodoo , but could you then extract some point you wish to make with the "letter" ? I mean logical respons is to give you a letter right back , now would that be worth the trouble ? I don't think so .

Yasser arafat gives up power all together. Democratic gov put in place.

He is democratically chosen and with alot more support than say ........Arik Sharon . Perhaps you should explain the new definition of democracy that you are applying here , such as zionist puppet perhaps ?