[wat0n]

So it is irrelevant who the journalist is.

So? Is the report false?

…that you are making?

Or that you are making.

The only there be an international presence on the ground is when the UN is doing its fact finding mission, After that, it will be like the areas that are currently being accessed exclusively by the IDF: megadeaths of Palestinian civilians.

Is this an assumption, too?

Because it is not a reasonable one if there will be a long-term international presence in Gaza, in the form of a peacekeeping force.

Since you doubled down on your dishonesty and rudeness, I am not going to address this even if you ask again nicely.

You did not answer the question.

You normally do this when you can't admit your inconsistency.

[Pants-of-dog]

So? Is the report false?

Or that you are making.

Again! you seem to have forgotten my argument.

Is this an assumption, too?

Because it is not a reasonable one if there will be a long-term international presence in Gaza, in the form of a peacekeeping force.

The presence of an international peacekeeping force is your assumption.

I am assuming that the current monopoly on violence will continue for as long as the holders of said monopoly wish it to continue.

[wat0n]

Again! you seem to have forgotten my argument.

Is the report false?

The presence of an international peacekeeping force is your assumption.

That is being discussed between Israel, the US and the Arab states (those allied to the US at least) according to press reports.

I am assuming that the current monopoly on violence will continue for as long as the holders of said monopoly wish it to continue.

At least the Israeli public doesn't want Israel to reoccupy Gaza.

[ingliz]

@wat0n

Netanyahu will have to do something soon as the conflict is spreading.

The English are fast running out of missiles, having given most of them to Ukraine, and the situation in the Red Sea, as a result, is unsustainable.

They are threatening to bomb Yemen.

[Pants-of-dog]

Is the report false?

I assume the reporter truthfully reported the fact that Netanyahu claimed the land would be returned to the Palestinians.

Whether or not Netanyahu was being truthful is another matter.

Again, this seems irrelevant.

That is being discussed between Israel, the US and the Arab states (those allied to the US at least) according to press reports.

Did Netanyahu claim this too?

At least the Israeli public doesn't want Israel to reoccupy Gaza.

A large percentage do. In fact, there are more Israelites that want permanent settlement than there are Israelites who want to return the land to Palestine authorities.

[wat0n]

@wat0n

Netanyahu will have to do something soon as the conflict is spreading.

The English are fast running out of missiles, having given most of them to Ukraine, and the situation in the Red Sea, as a result, is unsustainable.

They are threatening to bomb Yemen.

I wonder if the conflict will actually spread.

Hezbollah doesn't seem to be interested in drawing Israeli soldiers in, since just like Israel would then a two-front war, so would Hezbollah (given its presence in Syria). And the damage that would result from such escalation likely deters both Israel and Hezbollah from escalating.

Yet it is true miscalculations can lead to an unwanted escalation.

Yemen? That is its own thing, and Israel isn't actively participating there.

I assume the reporter truthfully reported the fact that Netanyahu claimed the land would be returned to the Palestinians.

Whether or not Netanyahu was being truthful is another matter.

Again, this seems irrelevant.

So Netanyahu is assumed to be untruthful in the matter of post-war Gaza but Hamas is assumed to be truthful when, for example, reporting casualty figures.

Right?

Did Netanyahu claim this too?

No, it comes from press reports.

A large percentage do. In fact, there are more Israelites that want permanent settlement than there are Israelites who want to return the land to Palestine authorities.

Not really, 56% are against reoccupying Gaza and building settlements there.

33% are for it.

More than half of Israelis oppose annexing the Gaza Strip and reestablishing settlements uprooted during Israel’s 2005 Disengagement, according to a poll from the Hebrew University published Sunday.

According to the survey of over 1,800 people, which was conducted on December 7-9, 56 percent of Israelis opposed such a policy in the long term, as opposed to only 33% in favor and 11% who were uncertain.

[Pants-of-dog]

So Netanyahu is assumed to be untruthful in the matter of post-war Gaza but Hamas is assumed to be truthful when, for example, reporting casualty figures.

Right?

All actors are assumed to be rational and therefore tell the truth if it fits their agenda, and will lie if it fits their agenda, as allowed by context in terms of verifiabilty, et cetera.

So we can assume Netanyahu is telling the truth insofar as allowing UN reps to do their information gathering visit.

No, it comes from press reports.

The press reports I have read do not say that Netanyahu would support a UN peacekeeping force in Gaza. No Arab countries would do it, nor would Israel accept that (according to the press reports).

Not really, 56% are against reoccupying Gaza and building settlements there.

33% are for it.

That 56% are not a monolithic entity and not one of those factions is as big as the number who want to settle Gaza.

If the 33% wanted to push it, they could make it policy.

[wat0n]

All actors are assumed to be rational and therefore tell the truth if it fits their agenda, and will lie if it fits their agenda, as allowed by context in terms of verifiabilty, et cetera.

So we can assume Netanyahu is telling the truth insofar as allowing UN reps to do their information gathering visit.

If so, then we can't say much about what's happening in Gaza.

If we can doubt Gaza's casualty figures, you also lose one of the major supporting evidence to argue Israel intends to resettle the Strip.

The press reports I have read do not say that Netanyahu would support a UN peacekeeping force in Gaza. No Arab countries would do it, nor would Israel accept that (according to the press reports).

Nobody has spoken of an UN force specifically. Netanyahu has said that he's in favor of Gaza being governed by the Palestinians, but without mentioning the Palestinian Authority.

That 56% are not a monolithic entity and not one of those factions is as big as the number who want to settle Gaza.

If the 33% wanted to push it, they could make it policy.

Why aren't the 56% a monolithic entity but the 33% are?

One weird double-standard, again.

What that 56% does show is that they do agree that Gaza shouldn't be resettled.

[Pants-of-dog]

If so, then we can't say much about what's happening in Gaza.

If we can doubt Gaza's casualty figures, you also lose one of the major supporting evidence to argue Israel intends to resettle the Strip.

Not necessarily. Again, issues like verifiability are also important factors. If a rational actor can be easily found to be lying, the rational actor will not lie (even if deception is advantageous) if being caught in a lie removes any advantage(s) gained by lying.

In the case of casualty figures, Hamas has a media incentive to make the number bigger while the IDF has the same incentive to reduce the number. So, in term of advantage, there is no way to decide. But casualty figures can also be verified independently, and in that respect, the numbers from the Health Ministry seem to be correct.

Nobody has spoken of an UN force specifically. Netanyahu has said that he's in favor of Gaza being governed by the Palestinians, but without mentioning the Palestinian Authority.

Again,Netanyahu is not looking at an international peacekeeping force in Gaza,

Why aren't the 56% a monolithic entity but the 33% are?

One weird double-standard, again.

What that 56% does show is that they do agree that Gaza shouldn't be resettled.

Because the 32% all responded the same way to the survey while the 56% is the sum of several groups who all responded differently to the survey. Some want no settlement. Some want an international peacekeeping force. Others want other things.

[wat0n]

Not necessarily. Again, issues like verifiability are also important factors. If a rational actor can be easily found to be lying, the rational actor will not lie (even if deception is advantageous) if being caught in a lie removes any advantage(s) gained by lying.

In the case of casualty figures, Hamas has a media incentive to make the number bigger while the IDF has the same incentive to reduce the number. So, in term of advantage, there is no way to decide. But casualty figures can also be verified independently, and in that respect, the numbers from the Health Ministry seem to be correct.

Who's verified them?

Hamas has already lied about casualties in past, particularly about the civilian/combatant breakdown.

Again,Netanyahu is not looking at an international peacekeeping force in Gaza,

This is being negotiated as of today.

Because the 32% all responded the same way to the survey while the 56% is the sum of several groups who all responded differently to the survey. Some want no settlement. Some want an international peacekeeping force. Others want other things.

Prove this.

[Pants-of-dog]

Who's verified them?

Hamas has already lied about casualties in past, particularly about the civilian/combatant breakdown.

In terms of the actual topic, Netanyahu gains advantages by being deceptive about who will eventually benefit from the UN fact finding mission, and there is no way of knowing if he is telling the truth until his decision is realized.

This is being negotiated as of today.

Then you must have some secret inside source. There are no news articles about Netanyahu entertaining the idea of an international peacekeeping force in Gaza.

Prove this.

The Times of Israel

Survey shows substantial support for renewal of Jewish settlement in Gaza after war

18 November 2023, 7:25 pm

[wat0n]

In terms of the actual topic, Netanyahu gains advantages by being deceptive about who will eventually benefit from the UN fact finding mission, and there is no way of knowing if he is telling the truth until his decision is realized.

Whether Hamas is being honest about civilian deaths is also very much part of the actual topic at hand.

Israel claims it has killed around 10,000 combatants, how is that not relevant?

Then you must have some secret inside source. There are no news articles about Netanyahu entertaining the idea of an international peacekeeping force in Gaza.

This is from this week:

Israeli officials have floated a wide range of other ideas. Some of them have held out hope that Arab states would agree to send in a peacekeeping force. Others have promoted the idea of a multinational force led by the United States, but with Israeli oversight for security of the strip. But U.S. officials say that their Israeli counterparts have not formally asked them to pursue the idea of an international force because they know it is unlikely to happen.

The Times of Israel

Survey shows substantial support for renewal of Jewish settlement in Gaza after war

18 November 2023, 7:25 pm

Asked what should happen with Gaza at the end of the war, 32% of respondents said “Israel should remain permanently and renew Jewish settlement”; 30% said the enclave should be “given over to international trusteeship”; 14% said Israel should “maintain a permanent military presence”; 10% percent said it should be “handed over for rule by the Palestinian Authority”; and 14% said they did not know.

The TV anchors said respondents were also asked to make a direct choice as to whether or not they favored a renewal of Jewish settlement in Gaza, and 44% said they were in favor, while 39% were against. This finding was not shown on screen, however.

It seems there is no agreement among Israelis on what to do about Gaza according to this survey. So how exactly can anyone conclude there's widespread support for a permanent displacement of Gazans?

[wat0n]

And now Netanyahu's saying he doesn't want to permanently occupy Gaza:

[Pants-of-dog]

Whether Hamas is being honest about civilian deaths is also very much part of the actual topic at hand.

Israel claims it has killed around 10,000 combatants, how is that not relevant?

By your clear refusal to address the topic, I assume you have no disagreement with the claim that Netanyahu could easily be lying about who will benefit from the UN fact finding mission.

This is from this week:

So some people are discussing it, but not Netanyahu. And especially not Netanyahu with other world leaders.

So it would be incorrect to argue that the current Israeli government is in talks with other nations to have an international peacekeeping force in Gaza.

It seems there is no agreement among Israelis on what to do about Gaza according to this survey. So how exactly can anyone conclude there's widespread support for a permanent displacement of Gazans?

The claim was that a large percentage of Israelis support settlements. This has been verified. I also claimed that there are more Israelis that want permanent settlement than there are Israelis who want to return the land to Palestine authorities, which is also now verified.

[wat0n]

By your clear refusal to address the topic, I assume you have no disagreement with the claim that Netanyahu could easily be lying about who will benefit from the UN fact finding mission.

No, you are refusing to address the topic at hand.

Israel killing 10,000+ fighters is very much relevant. So is, more generally, the number of fighters and civilians killed.

So some people are discussing it, but not Netanyahu. And especially not Netanyahu with other world leaders.

So it would be incorrect to argue that the current Israeli government is in talks with other nations to have an international peacekeeping force in Gaza.

Those are representatives of the Israeli government itself.

So now you've gone to openly lying now.

The claim was that a large percentage of Israelis support settlements. This has been verified. I also claimed that there are more Israelis that want permanent settlement than there are Israelis who want to return the land to Palestine authorities, which is also now verified.

The claim was that there's widespread support among Israelis to resettle Gaza, in reality, they are not the majority.

Yet another lie.

[Pants-of-dog]

No, you are refusing to address the topic at hand.

Israel killing 10,000+ fighters is very much relevant. So is, more generally, the number of fighters and civilians killed.

We can move on to this new topic now that you have conceded the previous argument.

What exactly is this new argument? How does it relate to Netanyahu’s plans for Gaza?

Those are representatives of the Israeli government itself.

So now you've gone to openly lying now.

Is it lying to point out that your own source specifically says that no formal talks are happening?

Your source is gaslighting you!

The claim was that there's widespread support among Israelis to resettle Gaza, in reality, they are not the majority.

Yet another lie.

No. I know what I wrote.

And anyone can read my claim here:
viewtopic.php?p=15301322#p15301322

Now, the actual words written in this thread are also gaslighting you!

[wat0n]

We can move on to this new topic now that you have conceded the previous argument.

What exactly is this new argument? How does it relate to Netanyahu’s plans for Gaza?

The argument is that you have no evidence to back your claims up.

The little evidence you have, relies on trusting Hamas which you admit is not trustworthy.

Is it lying to point out that your own source specifically says that no formal talks are happening?

Your source is gaslighting you!

It is to lie to say no talks are happening and that Israel isn't considering an international peacekeeping force in Gaza.

No. I know what I wrote.

And anyone can read my claim here:
viewtopic.php?p=15301322#p15301322

Now, the actual words written in this thread are also gaslighting you!

And yet more lies, what the polls show is that there are not "more Israelites [sic] that want permanent settlement than there are Israelites [sic] who want to return the land to Palestine authorities."

It is also noteworthy even Netanyahu has come out and said publicly he doesn't want to permanently occupy Gaza or displace Gazans.

[late]

Reality, what a concept:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/ ... -mans-body

[wat0n]

Reality, what a concept:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/ ... -mans-body

What does this prove exactly?

Note this isn't even in Gaza.

[ingliz]

Netanyahu has come out and said publicly

What Israel says and what it does are usually two different things.