[wat0n]

The Palestinians might well be better off in the log term without the so called autonomy now, right now they are continual be compromised and forced into participating in their own oppression, it's diving them and degrading them. IF the PA is regarded as a total failure as far being representative and looking after there people, it's existence may well be hindering the development of a effective governance responsible ro the Palestinian people.

I'm not saying either way, but there is a fair argument that accepting the limited autonomy of Oslo and the PA has in fact been to the long term detriment of the Palestinian people. Of course if Israel was genuine in any way about the entire process things would be different.

How would the lack of any sort of autonomy be conductive in any way to solve anything? I think Israel would be in an even stronger position to say that a withdrawal is too risky if the PA didn't exist by saying that the Palestinians don't even want a government.

Autonomy that legitimises and rubber stamps the cantonisation of the WB - with the specific aim of making the plan for a future Palestinian state wholly untennable? What a sad joke.

In which way is the PA legitimizing any of that?

Let's say the PA didn't exist. How would this stop Israel from doing whatever it wants in the West Bank? Wouldn't it, if anything, legitimize even further Israeli action on the matter?

I commend the PLO/PA for turning up to the negotiating table in good faith - yet it is time we acknowledged the inconvenient - yet undeniable fact, that Israel is not a genuine partner in peace. They have demonstrated this just too often. For them negotiations are nothing more than cynical exercises for them to create more facts on the ground towards their ultimate goal of making a future Palestinian state unviable. On that basis, I'm afraid its simply naive to think that continued negotiations between the PA and the Israelis will ever be in the interests of the Palestinians.

Oh but Israel has also negotiated in good faith, yet we both know that there are legitimate gaps between the positions of both sides that haven't been closed in the realms of refugees, the Old City of Jerusalem, security and to a lesser extent land swaps. We've known so from both the talks in 2000 and 2008.

But even if you insist on fixating on settlement construction, I think it's worthwhile to remember that Israel kept building settlements as it talked to Egypt back in the late 70s. This didn't really stop them to sign a deal back then, and I see no reason to assume it has to stop the Israelis and Palestinians from signing an agreement now. It doesn't, if the gaps are not that big.

Thats why Hamas's terrorism serves a purpose - its crude and condemnable for the tactics they employ, but it absolutely does serve a purpose - namely to help expose the negotiations for the farce that they are.

No, it doesn't. In the end, Hamas' terrorism and the PA's inability to stop it only show that it doesn't matter what the PA and Israel agree to, this would not bring effective peace anyway.

And yes, this is a major sticking point in negotiations too as this situation means Israel ends up demanding security guarantees that the PA doesn't want to accept, such as the IDF's permanent presence in its territory in the form of early warning stations or the demilitarization of the state.

I maintain that if not for Hamas, the Palestinians would have roled over and agreed to a bantustan solution by now - one that legitimises the Israeli occupation, and formalises the apartheid state of Israel.

If it weren't for Hamas and the Palestinian stance it currently represents, Israel would have no reason to demand any substantive military presence in the West Bank under a final deal, the Israeli public would not be as reticent to leave the West Bank and a major sticking point would be removed.

In any event, even if Hamas didn't exist, the PA would have rejected any Israeli offer that left the West Bank cut off - and in fact Israel has offered in the past land swaps that leave it as a continuous unit.

[pugsville]

The PA is forced to collaborate with the Israeli occupation and provides a fig leaf for it. The occupation corrupts and degrades both the occupier and the occupied. At some point the degradation overrides any good you are doing.

Israel is not acting in good faith. The Israeli government actively cooperates/funds/supports/defends outright theft of Palestinian land by extremist settlers, against Israeli law. There is no will to enforce Israeli law regarding illegal land seizures which are nothing more than theft. It is a totally racial based apartheid system. The Bandstands are merely fiction which enables the Israelis to claim otherwise.

[Rich]

The Palestinians might well be better off in the log term without the so called autonomy now, right now they are continual be compromised and forced into participating in their own oppression, it's diving them and degrading them. IF the PA is regarded as a total failure as far being representative and looking after there people, it's existence may well be hindering the development of a effective governance responsible ro the Palestinian people.

I'm not saying either way, but there is a fair argument that accepting the limited autonomy of Oslo and the PA has in fact been to the long term detriment of the Palestinian people. Of course if Israel was genuine in any way about the entire process things would be different.

Of course it was. There are only two ways that "the Palestinians" can win. The Muslim Caliphate jihadi route. It may take some time but if they win they win big. The other is to seek rights and citizenship inside Israel .Once inside they would have a very good chance of undermining the Jewish supremacist state. The first Intifada actually saved Israel from the suicidal libertarian/ leftie madness that Europe is so keen on. Both routes would probably in the end lead to the total elimination of the Jews from Palestine.

The great fault of the Bantustans was to fire a few rockets into White territory so as to burnish their anti White credentials. Both Fatah and Hamas Kapo governments whether they are conscious of it or not. In a way so were the Provisional IRA in the beginning, but as the threat of Communism has receded to a chimera that function has been forgotten..

[wat0n]

The PA is forced to collaborate with the Israeli occupation and provides a fig leaf for it. The occupation corrupts and degrades both the occupier and the occupied. At some point the degradation overrides any good you are doing.

How are the Palestinians supposed to build a state if they lack any sort of government?

And anyway, am I supposed to believe Hamas is acting morally or that it isn't corrupt?

Israel is not acting in good faith. The Israeli government actively cooperates/funds/supports/defends outright theft of Palestinian land by extremist settlers, against Israeli law. There is no will to enforce Israeli law regarding illegal land seizures which are nothing more than theft. It is a totally racial based apartheid system. The Bandstands are merely fiction which enables the Israelis to claim otherwise.

If that were true, there would be no demolition of outposts built by settlers and the latter would not harass Israeli soldiers from time to time. This isn't really the case.

No, things are more complex than that and there's a clear power struggle within Israel on what to do with settlements - probably because there is no real consensus on how to deal with the issue even though a clear majority doesn't want to get to a point in which a settlement withdrawal in the context pf an agreement is overly costly.

[pugsville]

Just because the state of Israel does not roll over and allow every settler expansion does not negate the fact that 1/3 of all settlements are built on privately owned Palestinian land and illegal under Israeli law. Repeatedly the Israeli governments have been in contempt of court when failing to keep their undertakings remove settlement, the Israeli governments have repeated acted in bad faith, making limited or no efforts in many cases. Government ministers repeated give messages of support to people who have been shown to seized land in the west bank by fraud. These thieves are offered compensation by government. A lot of settlement money is illegal and corruptly transferred. Settlers violence is rarely investigated or prosecuted.

In General there is a complete lack of enforcing the law in the west bank when it comes to settlers.

The PA is in a totally dependent situation where they cannot function without the co-operation of the Israelis. Their taxes are collected by Israel and only handed over when the Israelis feel lie it. Movement around the 208 separate Areas is totally at the whim of Israelis. Collaboration or co-operation? It;s a valid question.

[wat0n]

Just because the state of Israel does not roll over and allow every settler expansion does not negate the fact that 1/3 of all settlements are built on privately owned Palestinian land and illegal under Israeli law. Repeatedly the Israeli governments have been in contempt of court when failing to keep their undertakings remove settlement, the Israeli governments have repeated acted in bad faith, making limited or no efforts in many cases. Government ministers repeated give messages of support to people who have been shown to seized land in the west bank by fraud. These thieves are offered compensation by government. A lot of settlement money is illegal and corruptly transferred. Settlers violence is rarely investigated or prosecuted.

In General there is a complete lack of enforcing the law in the west bank when it comes to settlers.

And it doesn't negate the fact that the IDF demolishes illegal outposts as well, or that settlers complain about how the IDF doesn't act as they wish.

No, it's more complex than that.

The PA is in a totally dependent situation where they cannot function without the co-operation of the Israelis. Their taxes are collected by Israel and only handed over when the Israelis feel lie it. Movement around the 208 separate Areas is totally at the whim of Israelis. Collaboration or co-operation? It;s a valid question.

How would any of this change if the PA ceased to exist?

[pugsville]

The IDF very occasionally is ordered to remove some outposts. occasionally the Israeli government decides to enforce Israeli law, but on the whole it actively funds and supports violations. So it does not support all settler illegal actions just most of them. There is a clear pattern of behavior.

[wat0n]

Very occasionally? What's your basis to say that?

[pugsville]

Because the outposts exists, If the Israeli government wanted to enforce the law they would be gone.

1/3 of the settlement land in the west bank are on Private owned Palestinian land illegal under Israeli law.

There is a clear lac of will and in fact a clear will to go the other way by the Israeli Government, Administration and the IDF to actively engage in criminal conspiracy behavior against Israeli law.

[wat0n]

Well, I said there's an internal struggle on the matter, didn't I?

That includes this banana republic-like disregard for their own laws.

[pugsville]

And increasing problem it seems. Settlers are increasingly more radical having more contempt for the law, and expecting more favorable treatment from the authorities, with generations of young people being brought up that way, expecting massive support from the wider community and at the same time having complete contempt for that society.

Really a massive problem created by short sighted actions. The settlements are really bad for Israeli society.

[wat0n]

Indeed, and I suspect that they'll do something really stupid eventually. Like killing an IDF soldier.

Then, maybe, the wider society will reassess what should be done with extremist settlers.

[GandalfTheGrey]

And it doesn't negate the fact that the IDF demolishes illegal outposts as well

wat0n, the Israeli government some years back was famously exposed for building fake settlement outposts for no other purpose than to knock them down a short while later - purely for propaganda value. You must have heard of this.

One needs only peruse some of the research published by BTSelem to understand how sincere the Israeli government really is about reaching a viable solution.

[Decky]

Oh they want to reach a solution alright, one where there is nothing but Israel, all the way from the Turkish border to Suez, and all the troublesome natives are gone.

[wat0n]

wat0n, the Israeli government some years back was famously exposed for building fake settlement outposts for no other purpose than to knock them down a short while later - purely for propaganda value. You must have heard of this.

One needs only peruse some of the research published by BTSelem to understand how sincere the Israeli government really is about reaching a viable solution.

It's the first time I hear that, actually. What are you talking about exactly?

Am I supposed to believe that demolitions of outposts like this were faked?

Oh they want to reach a solution alright, one where there is nothing but Israel, all the way from the Turkish border to Suez, and all the troublesome natives are gone.

If that were the case, why withdraw from Gaza or Lebanon?

[Decky]

They are biding their time. Like a lizard basking in the sunlight to regain its energy before it strikes again.

[wat0n]

They must be doing a lot of biding, then, considering the circumstances in which both withdrawals occurred.

[GandalfTheGrey]

It's the first time I hear that, actually. What are you talking about exactly?

Unfortunately I can't find anything now - perhaps not surprising since it was happening in the early 2000s. But if it helps, here's me repeating the claim 11 years ago - somewhat more contemporaneously

viewtopic.php?p=79398#p79398

[wat0n]

That'd be a new one to me. The closest parallel I can find is the case of the Amona outpost, which was illegal but the settlers were given other land destined for military bases to move to and so they stopped whining.

[Buzz62]

Hamas does no such thing. Hamas is known, by pretty much everyone, as a TERRORIST organization. That's a double FAIL! That doesn't further the plight of anyone.

I have to salute the US government and intel agencies.
They've created 300 million scared to death drones.

Hey God-whatever...one man's "TERRORIST" is another man's FREEDOM FIGHTER.

But it takes a modicum of intellect to see that so...ya...