[wat0n]

It goes on because the Israelis haven't decided exactly how much Palestinian land they are stealing, because most Israelis are unwillingly to reign in the Settler extremists, as long as the oppression happens out of sight it's fine.

I'm inclined to share your view on this. The Settlers and their Israeli supporters are calling the shots.

So there is no role for Hamas and the other Palestinian armed groups in the distrust towards the Palestinians among the Israelis?

The Israelis can and have reined the settlers in (e.g. the withdrawal from Sinai in 1982, the withdrawal from Gaza and part of the West Bank in 2005), but I don't see how this would suddenly demobilize Hamas or the other Palestinian armed groups.

Please enlighten me: How would a settlement withdrawal demobilize Hamas and the other Palestinian armed groups?

[Heinie]

So there is no role for Hamas and the other Palestinian armed groups in the distrust towards the Palestinians among the Israelis?

The Israelis can and have reined the settlers in (e.g. the withdrawal from Sinai in 1982, the withdrawal from Gaza and part of the West Bank in 2005), but I don't see how this would suddenly demobilize Hamas or the other Palestinian armed groups.

Please enlighten me: How would a settlement withdrawal demobilize Hamas and the other Palestinian armed groups?

You are correct, withdrawal of Settlers while maintaining an armed occupation, whether it be a blockade or Apartheid reservations in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem will not put an end to resistance to the occupation. Nevertheless, with the Settlements and more planned, there is no realistic expectation for a two-state solution.

[wat0n]

You are correct, withdrawal of Settlers while maintaining an armed occupation, whether it be a blockade or Apartheid reservations in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem will not put an end to resistance to the occupation.

Then let's assume, too, that Israel also withdraws from East Jerusalem, the West Bank and ends the Gaza blockade unilaterally.

Now, how does this demobilize Hamas and the other Palestinian armed groups? Do you have any evidence to suggest this would be the case? Can you guarantee this would happen?

Nevertheless, with the Settlements and more planned, there is no realistic expectation for a two-state solution.

Nonsense. There are plenty of ways to implement it:

1) Swap territory

2) Provide incentives for settlers to voluntarily leave

3) After doing 1) and 2), forcibly remove the remaining settlers or just let them live under Palestinian rule. Surely if the conflict ends, the Palestinians will show tolerance towards them just as Hamas and the other Palestinian armed groups would demobilize right?

Settlements make things harder but don't magically make getting two states impossible.

[Heinie]

Then let's assume, too, that Israel also withdraws from East Jerusalem, the West Bank and ends the Gaza blockade unilaterally.

Now, how does this demobilize Hamas and the other Palestinian armed groups? Do you have any evidence to suggest this would be the case? Can you guarantee this would happen?

It is a precondition for peace.

1) Swap territory

You must be one of the few people on Planet Earth who believe the Israelis will leave the West Bank, including East Jerusalem.

2) Provide incentives for settlers to voluntarily leave

Money could not pay for the Settlers to consider quitting land promised to them by God Almighty.

3) After doing 1) and 2), forcibly remove the remaining settlers or just let them live under Palestinian rule. Surely if the conflict ends, the Palestinians will show tolerance towards them just as Hamas and the other Palestinian armed groups would demobilize right?

You do not understand the Settlers.

Settlements make things harder but don't magically make getting two states impossible.

I see it differently.

[jessupjonesjnr87]

So you're basically saying that the only good Jew is a dead Jew.

No basically I'm not saying anything like that. First and foremost not every Jew is an Israeli but aside from that my main opposition against the Israelis with regards to the Palestinians is because they are the ones with that kind of mentality towards their Arab neighbours. All I'm doing is saying it as it is. It's clear as day that the Israel's long term plan doesn't include them living side by side with Palestinians, they're not going to open their borders and build highways to link with their neighbours unless enough pressure can be put on them to change. Right now that pressure is only superficial at best while the Israelis go on building illegal settlements across the west Bank which are practically armed enclaves designed to disrupt any type of stable nationhood the Palestinians might achieve.

What sort of extreme circumstances have you gone through exactly?

None, I'm also not a Islamic extremist.

[skinster]

"You want all Jews to die *( "

at danholo for pulling out the anti-Semite card.

................................................................................................................................

There is no two-state solution. Israel-Palestine is just a single apartheid state.

[wat0n]

It is a precondition for peace.

That didn't answer the question, did it? Even if we assume it is necessary, it may not be sufficient.

You must be one of the few people on Planet Earth who believe the Israelis will leave the West Bank, including East Jerusalem.

Ehud Olmert offered just as much in 2008.

Money could not pay for the Settlers to consider quitting land promised to them by God Almighty.

Well, that depends on which settlers you offer the money to (see below).

You do not understand the Settlers.

One of the things that should be understood is that they are not a hive-mind and that there are different kinds of settlers currently living in the West Bank, with different motivations as well.

This report by the Oxford Research Group summarizes the divisions between them:

BREAKDOWN OF THE SETTLER GROUPS

The national-religious Zionists referred to above have long constituted the backbone of the activist movement to settle the territories occupied in June 1967. Different groups of Israelis have however been moving to the West Bank for reasons unrelated to religious belief, in particular to answer residential needs, often as result of a government policy of encouraging emigration through economic incentives. A variety of more or less discrete groups with differing aspirations and priorities remain living in the West Bank today. Of the total 289,600 settlers (excluding inhabitants of East Jerusalem), 22% of settlers live in national-religious settlements, 31% live in ultra-orthodox settlements, 15% live in secular settlements and the final 32% in heterogeneous settlements.13 By way of proviso, it is important to recognise that while these groups are often easily distinguishable communities with distinct identities, the boundaries between them are by no means concrete. Qualities that are typical of one group may be appropriated by another where it becomes strategically beneficial to do so – for instance a settler who came to the West Bank for purely economic reasons may take on a nationalist religious rhetoric in order to justify his or her presence there.14

National-religious settlers

The principal motivation behind the national-religious endeavour to settle the Occupied Territories stems from a belief – divergent from traditional Halachic interpretations – that the establishment of a Jewish State over all the historic ‘Land of Israel’ is a biblically justified imperative and will hasten the arrival of the Messiah. Other considerations do certainly inform some national-religious settlers’ decisions to move to the West Bank. However a significant number of this group favour an annexation of the West Bank into Israel and it is an important indication of the strength of the link of these people to Judea and Samaria. Many are further attracted by an enhanced quality of life in communities that offer more space, better value housing and good access to public services. National-religious settlements are to be found throughout the West Bank (often on biblical sites such as Hebron or Kiryat Arba) and they form the vast majority, more than 80%, of the 80,000 settlers east of the separation barrier.

As a group, national-religious settlers are the most steadfast and vociferous opponents of withdrawal, given their ideological attachment to the land in question and their belief that it is the state’s duty and destiny to reclaim and maintain it. The 2005 evacuation of some 8,000 nationalreligious settlers from Gaza enraged the community and encouraged deep mistrust of the state. Religious Zionists’ responses to this internal crisis have varied. A mainstream statist element has advocated increased efforts to revive state and public support for the settlement enterprise and argues that rabbinical authorities remain subordinate to the government.

“Many people are wrong in assuming settlers prioritize land over nation. In fact, as in Gush Katif, the great majority of settlers will obey the decision of the majority.”

Settler from Samaria, Head of Likud Student Organization

This is the line taken by the Yesha Council – the largely national-religious body which succeeded Gush Emunim as the principal representative of settler interests.15 Others however have become increasingly radical in their approach to the state, arguing the pre-eminence of rabbinical authority over it and encouraging forceful resistance to disengagement.16

One group that has translated this thinking into action is the so-called ‘hill-top youth’ who establish themselves in armed outposts deep in the West-Bank. The increasingly fragmented nature of the national-religious settler community is reflected in developments in its political representation. Its members have traditionally voted for the National Religious Party (NRP), and for other further right wing religious parties such as the National Union, formed in 1999.

2006 saw these parties campaign on a joint ticket, in unified response to the Gaza disengagement. In 2009 however, the party split again. The National Union’s central focus is the West Bank and they are more militant. Jewish Home (the natural successor of the NRP) is focused on the broad national policies of Israel as a whole, including in the West Bank. Whilst these religious parties’ share of the vote has diminished17 these losses were compensated (and in part explained) by the gains made by Likud and Yisrael-Beitenu. Parties which though nominally secular have reached out to the national-religious community.

Ultra-orthodox settlers

Ultra-orthodox settlers represent a group with motivations, concerns and practices which are entirely distinct from those of the national-religious community. Their presence in the West Bank is mainly a result not of any political or ideological motivation – the ultra-orthodox are traditionally non-Zionist or anti-Zionist and reject association with the Israeli state in most if not all but functional matters – but rather by demographic and economic concerns. The ultra-orthodox community is the fastest growing group in Israel - families typically have six or seven children. Faced with housing shortages in their enclosed communities within Jerusalem and Bnei Barak, they have been relocating to government-subsidised housing in segregated communities along the Green Line that were established by Likud in the late 1990s.18 The ultra-orthodox account for a large proportion of the settlement growth over the last decade – they represent 31% of the total settler population today, up from only 12% in 199619 – and the ultra-orthodox cities of Modi’in Illit and Beitar Illit are two of the largest and most established settler communities in the West Bank. Although the ultra-orthodox prefer to live in these homogenous communities near the Green Line (90% of ultra-orthodox settlers live in these areas), there have been reports of increasing numbers moving to settlements deeper within the West Bank.

Based on previous rounds of negotiations, many see Modi’in Illit and Beitar Illitar as areas that could possibly be part of an agreed swap in a peace agreement. However, the largely ultraorthodox settlement of Immanuel - located deeper within the West Bank – would require relocation. It is notable and worthy of fuller exploration that some ultra-orthodox communities are more receptive than many national-religious settlers to ideas about life under non-Zionist rule.

Given the almost incidental nature of the ultra-orthodox presence in the West Bank, many of their leaders have expressed a willingness to return to Israel proper, pending the offer of a financially viable alternative.20 However, ORG’s interviews indicate that under the pressure of a decade of friction with Palestinian neighbours, as well as continued calls to freeze all settlement growth, some (often younger) parts of the community have recently become increasingly attuned to the national-religious community’s oppositional stance toward withdrawal21 – a development which the latter community’s leaders have been keen to exploit. Indeed ultra-orthodox activists can now be seen at right-wing demonstrations, in the Shimeon Jewish district, or the Hatzadik Tomb in the Arab Sheikh Jarrah district, both in East Jerusalem.

“Since the moratorium was imposed by the US government it is stopping us getting on with our lives ... We have large families, often twelve children and it is the responsibility of each parent to buy a home for their children. We do not wish to provoke the Palestinians. We came here because the land is cheap and is subsidised by the government. The US says that Israel is not to construct new housing units. This is a death-blow to the Ultra-orthodox community when our children grow up and don’t have anywhere to live. We are now fighting against a freeze and are identified as the radical right and are seen to be fighting against the Palestinians. This is not our intention; it is our need for housing.” Jerusalem City Councilor, United Torah Judaism (Ultra Orthodox Ashkenazi party)

Complaints based on the need for ‘natural growth’ are a ‘natural’ result of any settlement building freeze – arguably essential in bringing the two sides to the negotiating table. The area of contention therefore is not the lack of space for natural growth itself, but who should assume responsibility for dealing with that problem. The Israeli government must do more to provide alternative solutions to the issue. Two parties, Shas and United Torah Judaism (UTJ), represent ultra-orthodox interests in the Knesset; the former is attached to the rabbinic council of Sephardic orthodoxy community, and the latter to that of Ashkenazi orthodoxy. It is worth noting that UTJ is not one party with one council. These rabbinic councils are the ultimate authority within the community:

“Ultraorthodox communities are not permitted to give an individual view on the question of settlements as it is a question for our leading rabbis.”

Jerusalem City Councilor, United Torah Judaism (Ultra Orthodox Ashkenazi party)

Despite growing numbers, the ultra-orthodox parties’ share of the public vote decreased slightly in the latest elections – Shas holds 11 and UTJ 5 seats – again reflecting the gains made by the mainstream right-wing parties. Still. Both are still members of the ruling coalition and Shas gained the key ministerial portfolios of the interior and housing ministries. In addition to control of the Israel Land Administration (all of which are crucial in respect to the status of settlements).22

Secular settlers

Whilst national-religious and ultra-orthodox communities account for a majority of the growth in settlements in recent years, there remains a strong presence of secular settlers living in the West Bank – as many as 31% of all settlers in 2007 belonged to this group.23 Secular settlements have existed in the West Bank since it was occupied in 1967. Some were established in the first decade after 1967, on the basis of a policy designed to provide control of areas that were critical to security, particularly along the border with Jordan. The majority, however, are what are often referred to as “quality-of-life settlers”, who moved there to benefit from the financial incentives that have been offered by successive Likud and Labour governments in the forms of subsidised housing and public services, tax-breaks for individuals and businesses and easy access to government grants. These economic settlers tend to live in areas west of the separation barrier that are within easy reach of Israel proper.24

One group of largely secular settlers worthy of mention in their own right are those that arrived from the former Soviet Union from 1990 onwards. Moving to the West Bank, largely for economic reasons (and apparently occasionally unaware of the political significance of the location), these immigrants have tended to move into particular settlements that have maintained their community identity. The majority live in the larger settlements of Ma’ale Adumim and Ariel (which doubled in size between 1989 and 1995 and whose inhabitants are now approximately 50% Russian), though others are to be found in outposts and settlements deeper within the West Bank. Peace Now calculates that as many as 10% of all settlers are from this group.25

Due to being largely economically motivated, many secular settlers have expressed a willingness to evacuate the West Bank in exchange for financial compensation. One effect of the Oslo Process, and the continuing negotiations, as well as the conflict with Palestinians has been to encourage a significant proportion of secular settlers to leave the West Bank. Secular settlers now living in more remote areas east of the separation barrier and in Jordan Valley have been particularly keen to seek compensation and return to the other side of the Green Line.26

“In the Jordan Valley some people are yearning to move out of the West Bank as soon as financial compensation is offered.”

Benny Raz, settler from Karnei Shomron, Director of Bayt Ehad

It would be misleading to imply that no secular settlers have an ideological or political attachment to the settlement enterprise. Whilst strictly religious attachment to the territory in question is not an issue here, some of these settlers do feel an attachment to the pioneering Zionist ethos that encouraged. Others place great emphasis on the need to maintain Israeli control over them in light of security considerations. The secular settlements have long been a Likud stronghold, though in recent elections, Kadima and Yisrael Beitenu have made some gains here.

It is most certainly possible to offer a compensated relocation and it is likely that many settlers would take the offer - even in settlements that lie east of the barrier.

It is also important to consider that once a substantial minority leaves, the process may damage the rest so badly that more would be enticed to leave:

“If the evacuation-compensation law passes then even a partial evacuation, say of 50% of the people of a certain settlement, will weaken significantly the economy and social fabric of the settlement and is likely to cause a domino effect. Imagine a settlement which 40% of children in its school and the employees in its main factory disappear. What will the remaining residents do? Can the factory still function? Is it economically viable to keep the school open?”

Ben Ben Benny Raz, settler from Karnel Shomron, Director of Bayt Ehad

[danholo]

No basically I'm not saying anything like that. First and foremost not every Jew is an Israeli but aside from that my main opposition against the Israelis with regards to the Palestinians is because they are the ones with that kind of mentality towards their Arab neighbours. All I'm doing is saying it as it is. It's clear as day that the Israel's long term plan doesn't include them living side by side with Palestinians, they're not going to open their borders and build highways to link with their neighbours unless enough pressure can be put on them to change. Right now that pressure is only superficial at best while the Israelis go on building illegal settlements across the west Bank which are practically armed enclaves designed to disrupt any type of stable nationhood the Palestinians might achieve.

Sure, Israel is the problem, the Arabs are angels. Israel doesn't want to live with its neighbors, Arabs want to live with Israel. Of course, that's exactly how it is. It's Israel's mentality that's the problem, the Arab's are accepting and pluralistic. Israel's neighbors are a statement of this.

None, I'm also not a Islamic extremist.

I don't believe you; your world-view and position is extremist. You blame Israel's mentality, not Arab mentality.

at danholo for pulling out the anti-Semite card.

Yeah, well generally shit is funny when it's true. It's odd how it's the Israeli mentality that's in question, nothing more. The Arabs are angels, the Jews (sorry, Israelis) are the devil and its their hate and intransigence alone that is the problem? Wow, I really was fooled, what an unbigoted position. Generalizations are always so factual, aren't they?

There is no two-state solution. Israel-Palestine is just a single apartheid state.

Yes, Israelis and Israel is the evil Apartheid entity and Arabs are just yearning for coexistence and peaceful cooperation with their Jewish neighbors. I'm sorry I didn't see it sooner. I have to call my Israeli friends to spread the news: "You're all racist and you're the problem!"

You know, it's disenchanting to come off Facebook and be reminded of Israeli racism and then come here and be reminded that anti-Semitism does still exist and both just feed off each other. I'm utterly convinced that the bulk of any society is as racist as its situation makes it out to be. Also, I don't think religion helps that much either...

[skinster]

Yeah, well generally shit is funny when it's true. It's odd how it's the Israeli mentality that's in question, nothing more. The Arabs are angels, the Jews (sorry, Israelis) are the devil and its their hate and intransigence alone that is the problem? Wow, I really was fooled, what an unbigoted position. Generalizations are always so factual, aren't they?

Considering the Israelis hold all the power, who maintain the occupation and oppression of Palestinians (and others), who ignore international laws and conventions and very regularly kill with impunity, yes, it's them that are the problem here. You can cry your crocodile victim tears but considering how Israelis are treating Palestinians, you should really be ashamed of yourself for crying victim while supporting the oppressor.

You can STFU on making this a Jew-thing too, considering there are gazillions of Jewish groups / people (inc holocaust survivors) who support my position and oppose yours. The anti-Semite card worked once upon a time but people see through that teeny violin you're playing and you should feel embarrassed to even attempt to use it while simultaneously supporting Zionism, a racist/supremacist ideology.

Here's my friend Ariel Gold at the Western Wall a few days ago, protesting in favour of boycotting Israel. This isn't a Jew vs whatever thing like you pretend it is.

Yes, Israelis and Israel is the evil Apartheid entity and Arabs are just yearning for coexistence and peaceful cooperation with their Jewish neighbors. I'm sorry I didn't see it sooner. I have to call my Israeli friends to spread the news: "You're all racist and you're the problem!"

Israel is an apartheid and racist state and Arabs - or "Palestinians" as they call themselves - are yearning for basic human rights and equality like the people you support, already get.

You don't need to call your friends to spread the news, they already know Israel is a racist society and is quite open about that.
[youtube]rTRsnoAmgjc[/youtube]

[wat0n]

You can STFU on making this a Jew-thing too, considering there are gazillions of Jewish groups / people (inc holocaust survivors) who support my position and oppose yours. The anti-Semite card worked once upon a time but people see through that teeny violin you're playing and you should feel embarrassed to even attempt to use it while simultaneously supporting Zionism, a racist/supremacist ideology.

FWIW, there are even neo-Nazi/anti-Jewish Jews (example). Likewise, there are also pro-Israel Arabs and Palestinians as well.

That argument is completely irrelevant.

[Rich]

Yes, Israelis and Israel is the evil Apartheid entity and Arabs are just yearning for coexistence and peaceful cooperation with their Jewish neighbors.

I do feel Israelis need a bit more humility rather than this know it all attitude. For example I feel they could learn from President Sisi on how to deal with the Muslim brotherhood.

[Heinie]

... You don't need to call your friends to spread the news, they already know Israel is a racist society and is quite open about that. ...

Thank-you for posting that video, skinster. I knew anti-Arab racism was rife among the Settlers and I was aware that there was general hostility toward Arabs among the Israeli population but I am ashamed to admit that this video has been an eye-opener.

[danholo]

Considering the Israelis hold all the power, who maintain the occupation and oppression of Palestinians (and others), who ignore international laws and conventions and very regularly kill with impunity, yes, it's them that are the problem here. You can cry your crocodile victim tears but considering how Israelis are treating Palestinians, you should really be ashamed of yourself for crying victim while supporting the oppressor.

I'm not supporting the oppressor but pointing out fictional and bigoted viewpoints. Israel does maintain the occupation, sure, and I have many problems with that but that wasn't the issue I was addressing; the described 'problem' here was Israeli 'mentality' as if their neighbor's mentality was never a catalyst to the problem. If that were the truth, I wouldn't have a problem with such a position, but it's not. The truth is that both sides argue that there is no partner for peace and that is not entirely untrue. Both sides possess volumes of mistrust for each other: The occupation did not occur in a vacuum, it was never solely Israel's mentality that escalated and prolonged the conflict and it still isn't. It has always been a situation of mutual belligerence, fear and intolerance towards the opposing side. I'll never be ashamed of pointing out factual inaccuracies.

You can STFU on making this a Jew-thing too, considering there are gazillions of Jewish groups / people (inc holocaust survivors) who support my position and oppose yours. The anti-Semite card worked once upon a time but people see through that teeny violin you're playing and you should feel embarrassed to even attempt to use it while simultaneously supporting Zionism, a racist/supremacist ideology.

Of course it's a Jew-thing. This is nothing BUT a Jew (and Palestinian) -thing; this is about Zionism - a movement for a national home for the Jewish people. Yet, I don't think the anti-Semite card ever worked - anti-Semites will always deny their own faults and how they single out Jews for something and will blame them in one form or another. In the Middle Ages it was about blood libels, now it's about racist libels. It's the Zionists who are 'supremacist/racist', and its their supremacist ideology and racism that has caused the ills in the Middle East, not the supremacist ideology and racism of their neighbors. I don't deny the racism of some Israelis, or the increasingly disgusting rightist policies the country has become to embrace, but ultimately racism is a fluid thing that changes according to the times. Zionism is no more or less racist than Palestinian or Finnish nationalism. However, nationalism is racism to some extent to even exist; it requires some inclusiveness and separation from others in any case. I mean, fighting racism with racism and broad generalizations won't help the situation. The Palestinian populace and the Arab world is extremely antisemitic to a fault, and that effects Israeli attitudes but that doesn't seem to bother the 'anti-racists'.

Here's my friend Ariel Gold at the Western Wall a few days ago, protesting in favour of boycotting Israel. This isn't a Jew vs whatever thing like you pretend it is.

If this wasn't a Jewish thing, Mr. Gold wouldn't give two shits about Israel/Palestine. She is very worried about the current state of Israel's affairs and so am I, but I won't point the finger only at one side because that won't help the issue one bit.

Israel is an apartheid and racist state and Arabs - or "Palestinians" as they call themselves - are yearning for basic human rights and equality like the people you support, already get.

You don't need to call your friends to spread the news, they already know Israel is a racist society and is quite open about that.
[youtube]rTRsnoAmgjc[/youtube]

Palestine is also a very antisemitic society and they are very open about it. They support and call for the murder of Jews and call them 'sons of apes and pigs'. Maybe you should call them, because supposedly Israelis are not oblivious?

Thank-you for posting that video, skinster. I knew anti-Arab racism was rife among the Settlers and I was aware that there was general hostility toward Arabs among the Israeli population but I am ashamed to admit that this video has been an eye-opener.

The bigger problem with the racism in Israel is not the racism but the denial that it exists; it's the idea that one is pure and your actions don't affect the situation as a whole.

[wat0n]

I don't think Israelis deny there is racism in their society, neither do Americans or Europeans with regard of their own societies I think, though maybe they do underestimate its role in the conflict.

The irony here is that both skinster and Heinie have spent the whole thread denying the rife antisemitism prevalent in some sectors of Palestinian society and its importance with regards to the conflict.

[Heinie]

...
The bigger problem with the racism in Israel is not the racism but the denial that it exists; it's the idea that one is pure and your actions don't affect the situation as a whole.

The denial certainly makes any prospect of a solution unrealistic.

[Please avoid formatting such as colour, this violates Rule 5 and the Moderation team reserves its use to make important changes visible]

[Rich]

In the Middle Ages it was about blood libels,

We were ruled by a Jewish ideology. Filthy lies about Jews being the master race ordained by the creator of the universe. The bigoted Christian tyrants who dominated Europe were doing no different to the earlier Jewish terrorist rulers from at least Josiah onwards. Christianity was invented by Jews, so probably was Islam. Jews had huge privileges in Mediaeval Christendom. This suited the aristocratic rulers, as Jews made excellent middle men, who didn't threaten the indigenous aristocracy.

No one else had freedom to think, freedom to engaging in banking. Can some one please explain to me why jewish supremacists think Jews were entitled to modern liberal multicultural "human rights" in Medieval Europe when no one had modern Liberal multicultural "human rights"? Jews were licensed to carry out a one sided race war against the gentile population, to live in gated communities, where their women were protected from the gaze of gentiles, while Jews were free to roam through gentile communities preying on gentile women at will. In resource constrained Medieval societies Jewish populations expanded hugely at the expense of the Gentile populations.

Did people of Jewish descent suffer terrible discrimination, oppression and murder with the rise of modern nationalism? Sure they did, but lots of national minorities suffered, many nations suffered at the hands of their neighbours. Jews suffered every where because they were every where and they were prominent. Albanians were not attacked and vilified across Europe because they were not present across Europe. I'm not excusing the behaviour of European Conservatives in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries. I don't have to. I'm not a Conservative, But the political prominence of Jews, their economic success was bound to lead to trouble. When Chinese minorities got involved in politics it led to similar trouble.

Paul's letters show Christianity was invented by Jews. It was only later with the manufacture of the Gospels that they invented the story of Jesus and his disciples being Galileans.

[danholo]

The denial certainly makes any prospect of a solution unrealistic.

Yes, this is a huge problem and is endemic on both sides. Of course, ending the occupation itself could help the situation but the mistrust would still exist and needs to be fixed from the upbringing.

[Pisa]

Writing in HAARETZ yesterday, Bradley Burston says the occupation of Palestine has made Israelis act like stupid people, pretending that it does not even exist. "For most Israelis, the occupation is unseen, literally walled off from view. It is the swamp to be avoided, the painful sore best left under the cover of thick bandages."
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.685028

Did Bradley Burston publish some opinion polls among israelis to sustain his claims? (the article is behind a pay wall)

I walk on a daily basis through an area literally filled with palestinians - I know they are palestinians because of their appearance and because they board buses traveling to Shomron. If anyone outside Israel might believe there is a strict separation between israelis and palestinians, an israeli should know better. Bradley Burston appears to be living in a bubble.

So, Israelis appear unable to correlate resistance to the occupation with Palestinian stone-throwing, knifings, and car rammings,

This particular israeli appear unable to correlate the quoted sentence with anything remotely connected to reality. Would you pretty please explain your conclusion?

instead seemingly believing these are motivated by an Arab desire to exterminate all Jews

Sahih Muslim Book 041, Number 6985:

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.

There are more where this came from.

School books in Saudi Arabia teach about the above hadith:

Teachings of the Hadith

1/ It's fate decided by Allah that the Muslims and Jews will fight till the end of the world.

2/ The Hadith predicts for the Muslims God's victory over the Jews.

3/ The victory for the Muslims because they are right, and who ever is right is always victorious, even though most people are against him.

4/ God grants victory to the Muslims if they have a true will, if they unite, hold on to God's sharia, if they go by God's ruling, if they are patient.

5/ The material strength won't be enough to warrant victory, it is necessary to invoke God seek his support.

6/ Who ever is with God, God is with him; no matter what hardships and ordeals one would undergo what counts is the final result.

7/ Jews and Christians are the enemies of believers they will never approve of the Muslims, beware of them.

Arabs from the Saudi kingdom, not palestinians.

There was this egyptian who met a young jewish girl at some event in Norway. One day she asked him why he was so sad. He told her that muslims will eventually have to kill all the jews, and added: "This is what they teach us". I've read this story - written by the egyptian - on a Muslim Brotherhood linked site, years ago. An egyptian, not a palestinian.

Young pakistani children learn in their madrassas that jews and christians are not humans (courtesy of Ali Eteraz, sadly his blog no longer exists, but I believe he wrote about it in his memoir "The children of dust"). Pakistanis, not palestinians.

I think this is enough to show "a muslim desire to exterminate all jews" (most arabs are muslims). Please advise if you want more examples.

Can people who think like this be reasoned with?

And no, I don't believe that exterminating the jews is all muslims think about, but I do believe that teaching children that an entire people should be eradicated is not exactly the best way to win israelis' hearts. Except for Bradley Burston, of course.

And what if the occupation itself is preventing a "united and competent leadership"?

While Israel use the PA/Peace process to further it's settlement of the west bank it's pretty hard to the PA to have any credibility. While the West Bank is divided into 208 zones any sort of governance is pretty much impossible. The PLO was not a great choice for representing the Palestinians but as Israel have surpassed/expelled/corrupted any real leadership in the west bank there was not much alternative. Israel could easily do much to make the PA more effective and responsible but it has consistently undermined and placed the PA in an untenable position.

How exactly can Israel prevent a united and competent palestinian leadership?

They seemed pretty united to me in 2001, when the missiles started pouring in southern Israel from Gaza, long before the violent takeover by Hamas.

Do you have any sort of data on the furthering of settlements? On the surpassing/expelling/corrupting the real leadership? Who was on the real leadership list? Define "real leadership".

As for the Islamist thing, extreme circumstances breeds extreme thinking. The Palestinians wouldn't be the first people to unite under a common banner to fight the enemy and it's no surprise that in the Middle East this is frequently the religion of the local region.

What extreme circumstances led to the founding of the egyptian Muslim Brotherhood, the proud parent of Hamas?

What extreme circumstances led to fedayeen attacks in Israel in the '50 from Gaza, then militarily occupied by Egypt?

What extreme circumstances led to the founding of the PLO in 1964?

It's blatant for anyone who wants to see that Israel wants no compromise. They want the Palestinians gone, that is their final solution. If the Palestinians were to sit at the table and make peace with the Israelis they'd be fool's, borderline brain dead. There is no middle ground here.

"Blatant" with proofs, or is it just your personal opinion?

The palestinian leadership is already brain dead, has been for a long time. Nobody with a functional brain would knowingly turn their own people into living weapons. The palestinians are the only people in history created with the sole purpose of annihilating another people.

It's not just Israelis though, you have Zionists here from outside of Israel who act the same way, including on this board. Burston recently came to the realization that Israel is an apartheid state and seems to be slowly letting go of his Liberal-Zionist beliefs. This seems to be happening more and more amongst Israeli Jews because the truth can be hidden for only so long, but these Israeli-Jews are still very much in the minority because the brainwashing that doth occur with Israeli media is very powerful.

Isn't Ha'aretz (it's also being published here in hebrew) part of this brainwashing israeli media? Just wondering...

How can someone make such a sweeping statement about israeli media based on...err...israeli media?

The occupation is nearly always ignored by Israelis until they're attacked, and then it's true they do act stupid; acting surprised and appalled by the violence directed at them, unaware that the military occupation Palestinians have to live under is violence itself on Palestinians every single day - and has been for many decades - and the resistance to that is a response to the violence Palestinians suffer under Israeli apartheid.

Ignorance is bliss.

You don't know anything about the israeli society. Anything at all. You also don't know anything about the palestinian society.

Meanwhile, in not-so-zionist-friendly Jordan:

[youtube]77bqzT5n5Vs[/youtube]

On a related note: A bunch more settlements have been given the go-ahead to be built in Occupied Palestinian territory, by the forever-peace-seekers, the Israeli government.

Source?

Why does the occupation still go on anyway?

I wonder if the likes of skinster or Heinie will say that it is because those damm Nazi Jews just hate the Arabs? Or maybe they'll be smarter and realize that maybe and just maybe it goes on because many Israeli Jews don't trust the Palestinians and do not believe ending the occupation would end the conflict?

The palestinians themselves say loud enough that the conflict will be over only if Israel will cease to exist:

[youtube]PkBLuTK7IP0[/youtube]

If Israel withdraws from Jerusalem, evacuates the 650,000 settlers, and dismantles the wall – what will become of Israel? It will come to an end.

[...]

If one says that one wants to wipe Israel out... C'mon, it's too difficult. It's not [acceptable] policy to say so. Don't say these things to the world. Keep it to yourself.

It goes on because the Israelis haven't decided exactly how much Palestinian land they are stealing, because most Israelis are unwillingly to reign in the Settler extremists, as long as the oppression happens out of sight it's fine.

Let's stay on topic. Ha'aretz, I mean.

From the above mentioned anti-zionists'-darling newspaper:

Erekat stated furthermore that despite Israel’s continual policy of “occupation and settlement building,” an aerial photograph provided by European sources shows that settlements have been built on approximately 1.1% of the West Bank, thus legitimizing the Palestinian demand for a withdrawal to borders based on the June 4, 1967 borders.

Basically, palestinians admitted that settlements are not the thorn in the peace process eye.

Anyone who is genuinely interested in understanding the conflict should listen to what palestinian leaders say in arabic to arab media.

It is a precondition for peace.

Nice.

So, a complete withdrawal from West Bank and East Jerusalem, settlers notwithstanding, is just a precondition for peace. What would it take to make peace, then? Collective suicide of all jews in the holy muslim land of Palestine?

You don't need to call your friends to spread the news, they already know Israel is a racist society and is quite open about that.

I stopped watching the video when the hebrew word התבוללות was mistankely - maybe on purpose - translated as "inter-marriage". If you insist, I'll watch the whole thing and fisk it just for you, but I can already tell that a one-sided approach to an issue - any issue that involves more than one party - is doomed to be a failure.

No one else had freedom to think, freedom to engaging in banking.

As I already pointed out, ignorance is bliss.

There's no point in answering all your allegations. Bandwidth should not be abused.

[Heinie]

Did Bradley Burston publish some opinion polls among israelis to sustain his claims? (the article is behind a pay wall) ...

I'm sorry but your post is too long and makes too many points with multiple quotes that is is beyond my ability to address it. HAARETZ will permit you to read six articles every month if you register for a free subscription.

[skinster]

Thank-you for posting that video, skinster. I knew anti-Arab racism was rife among the Settlers and I was aware that there was general hostility toward Arabs among the Israeli population but I am ashamed to admit that this video has been an eye-opener.

If you're on FB / Twitter, you can follow David Sheen (the guy who gave the lecture). He shares what's going on in Israel re: racism, laws relating to it and other similar stuff on a daily basis.