[Thunderhawk]

Reading some comments claiming Israel is intentionally killing civilians Ive been thinking: why doesnt it deploy more weapons that have high civilian collateral damage?


Why doesnt Israel stop using precision weapons and start deploying MOAB equivelents?
Why didnt it cover southern Lebanon in air deployed mines and exfoliants making the whole area less habitable?
Why doesnt it heavily mine the area outside their aparthied wall?

Most of those who condemn Israel seem to do so regardless of Israel's and Hamas' actions. Many of those who support Israel do so with equal fervor. Few people seem to be judging Israeli and Hamas actions independant of their own prejudices.

So how much international good will would Israel actually loose by no longer deploying weapons that minimize collateral damage, and start using tactics and weapons that are specifically indifferent, rather then minimizing or maximizing, collateral deaths?

[Donna]

So how much international good will would Israel actually loose by no longer deploying weapons that minimize collateral damage, and start using tactics and weapons that are specifically indifferent, rather then minimizing or maximizing, collateral deaths?

There's enough unreasoned hysteria about Israel that such tactics would be lost in the ever-competing narratives of Israel and Palestine. It is already widely believed by the anti-Israel camp that Israel assaults Palestinians with indiscriminate ferocity (even though it doesn't), so why would it matter if it actually did?

[sploop!]

Israel is a fat sadist trying to boil a frog in front of a small child - the frog is Palestine, the small child is the watching world. If the fat sadist drops the frog into a pan of boiling water, there is a good chance the frog will try to leap out, and it will be necessary to grab it again, and maybe hold it under the water with a stick until it is dead. There is a very good chance the small child will scream and cry in horror at the sadist's actions, and will forever treat the sadist with suspicion and fear. However, if the sadist were to put the frog in a pan of cold water, and gradually bring it to the boil, there is a good chance the frog won't put up too much of a fight, and the watching child may not even realise what is going on. The future relationship between child and sadist might be quite comfortable, even though the frog will still be dead

That's why Israel cannot get on with the final solution in a swift efficient manner. It isn't palatable, and it is counter-productive. Israel wants to eliminate the Palestinians in a way which will not lead to it being expelled from polite society. It wants to do things this way because it wants to sell its goods to the rest of the world. And the rest of the world will only continue to buy if it can be lulled into thinking that the sadist is not an evil monster. But it's still going to kill the frog.

[Donna]

And the rest of the world will only continue to buy if it can be lulled into thinking that the sadist is not an evil monster. But it's still going to kill the frog.

Funny, Israel's behavior as an occupying force since the Six Day War has produced more existential risk to itself than it ever will to the Palestinians. Are occasional outbursts of airstrikes, nuisance apartheid and settlements supposed to 'slowly' exterminate 3.7 million (and rapidly growing) Palestinians? It's astonishing that someone like you, who has walked the earth a good twenty years longer than I have, could believe such intellectually void fishshit.

[sploop!]

Funny, Israel's behavior as an occupying force since the Six Day War has produced more existential risk to itself than it ever will to the Palestinians.

Depends how you see things, I guess. Of course there is a real risk in pursuing occupation and death to the Palestinians in slow motion, but the risk is lower than the risk Israel would face were it to exterminate the whole lot of them, and find itself marginalised and abandoned by its allies.

Are occasional outbursts of airstrikes, nuisance apartheid and settlements supposed to 'slowly' exterminate 3.7 million (and rapidly growing) Palestinians?

Godwins law and all that, but even the Nazis started small. First badges, then economic ruin, then ghettos, and finally extermination. I'm pretty sure Israel's plans will be more subtle and more carefully considered - it isn't possible to hide the War Crimes quite so easily nowadays. Maybe Israel will settle for squeezing all the Palestinians into a ghetto where economic activity is forbidden and the apparatus of state destroyed? I wonder how much space 3.7 million people can be squeezed into?

Obviously, you don't like what I have to say, but I have had 20 years more than you to watch Israel's master-plan unfold.

[Thunderhawk]

That's why Israel cannot get on with the final solution in a swift efficient manner.

I specifically said indifferent to collateral deaths.
Not maximizing, not intentionally slaughtering Palestinians. Simply that of indifference.
Weather Israel wants to exterminate the Palestinians is beside the point - why do the Israelis use precision equipment when they could use less precise equipment for the same effect?

Rather then use $60,000 missiles (like a Hellfire) to blow up a car with some Hamas leader in it, why not use cluster rockets or other high exposives that cost a lot less to use?




Like a frog in warm water heated rather quickly, who thrashes about but doesnt escape nor splash water out.

[sploop!]

Same sort of argument applies, I think.

Too much indiscriminate slaughter is not especially good for business. Israel's cover-story is that it is 'one of us'. We're quite happy to trade with one of our own. That's what democracies do. We're caring and fluffy and lovely.The last thing Israel needs is to look like 'one of them', or worse still, to remind us that we are no different from 'them'. 'They' are evil and behave in evil ways. It is essential Israel responds with moderation and care. That's what we do.

[Thunderhawk]

Same sort of argument applies, I think.

After a fashion, yes.

By using less precise (more cost effective) weapons Israel could still claim the morale high ground and the situation would not be much different from now.

[Rodion]

The OP is fundamentally wrong: just because hoi poloi either hate or love Israel based on their own degree of bias, doesn't mean this is the case for countries. The UN condemns Israel as much as Muslims and Jew-busters demand, but no serious actions are taken - why? Because Israel is a free, humane and most importantly rational state. The world can deal with it - and so it does.

Would a Palestinian state that replaced us be as palatable?

And so we're reduced to boxing Hamas in silk gloves, playing the part and eating insults, hate and fear as we always have.

Israel is a fat sadist trying to boil a frog in front of a small child - the frog is Palestine, the small child is the watching world. If the fat sadist drops the frog into a pan of boiling water, there is a good chance the frog will try to leap out, and it will be necessary to grab it again, and maybe hold it under the water with a stick until it is dead. There is a very good chance the small child will scream and cry in horror at the sadist's actions, and will forever treat the sadist with suspicion and fear. However, if the sadist were to put the frog in a pan of cold water, and gradually bring it to the boil, there is a good chance the frog won't put up too much of a fight, and the watching child may not even realise what is going on. The future relationship between child and sadist might be quite comfortable, even though the frog will still be dead

That's why Israel cannot get on with the final solution in a swift efficient manner. It isn't palatable, and it is counter-productive. Israel wants to eliminate the Palestinians in a way which will not lead to it being expelled from polite society. It wants to do things this way because it wants to sell its goods to the rest of the world. And the rest of the world will only continue to buy if it can be lulled into thinking that the sadist is not an evil monster. But it's still going to kill the frog.

Shit man... go outside, breathe some fresh air. You sound obsessed.

[sploop!]

Shit man... go outside, breathe some fresh air. You sound obsessed.

No argument, then?

Your comment sounds like a variation on the Anti-Semite accusation. You know how that works, right? 'Sploop! is an Anti-Semite', 'Sploop! is Obsessed', 'Sploop! is Over-Emotional'. It's a neat trick used by the Zio-Nazis to undermine opposition, and suggest some sort of problem with the argument without ever actually addressing what has been said. You should probably be better than this. But, hey...

The OP asked, more or less directly, why Israel is taking what appears to be an inefficient route to answering the Palestinian question. I have answered that question as honestly as I can, and I have based my conclusions on the evidence I have access to. You don't like that, that's fine. But I think you really ought to put up a bit of an argument, rather than resorting to not so subtle personal smears.

I'll answer one of your points, though:

Israel is a free, humane and most importantly rational state.

The citizens of Israel enjoy freedom whilst the citizens of Palestine live in a Prison built by Israel.

Humane needs some evidence. The last few weeks have rather tarnished that claim.

Rational? Yes, it is completely rational to eliminate the Palestinians if the intention is to steal their land.

[Rodion]

Sploop!, whether or not you're a raging anti-Semite is undisputed here. What got my attention was the sheer volume of biased analogies in your post, such as Israel not only being a sadist, but a fat one. The world - 6500000000+ people and growing - is a little boy, staring helplessly at the lumbering Israeli behemoth. The monster Israel's only concern is that the world might get scared and run away. The Palestinian side, with its Hamas and Islamic Jihad, with its rockets, suicide belts and Mikkey Kill Jews cartoon characters, is portrayed as a hapless critter, tortured for nothing but pleasure. You attack Israel as a bloodthirsty, unthinking freak in one post and a heartless, calculating Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi Nazi

Sorry. Heartless, calculating Nazi in the next. I'm not arguing with you, I'm amazed you exist.

[Donna]

Depends how you see things, I guess. Of course there is a real risk in pursuing occupation and death to the Palestinians in slow motion, but the risk is lower than the risk Israel would face were it to exterminate the whole lot of them, and find itself marginalised and abandoned by its allies.

You missed my point entirely - it is materially impossible to 'slowly' exterminate the Palestinians. What you call a slow, grinding 'genocide' of the Palestinians couldn't actually physically happen. Your frog-in-a-pot theory is nothing more than conjecture. You're being intellectually dishonest demonizing Israel in this context.

[War Angel]

I'm not arguing with you, I'm amazed you exist.

Why are you so amazed? I'm sure you've studied the same history as I have.

By using less precise (more cost effective) weapons Israel could still claim the morale high ground and the situation would not be much different from now.

Israel could fire indiscriminately, and it would still have the moral high ground - simply by not starting shit.

[sploop!]

Writing the word 'Nazi' 24 times is not really an argument. It looks more like a spell. But your basic point is correct. I think Israel is evil incarnate. And I don't believe it is intellectually dishonest to argue this case when Israel, only last month, went on a rampage across Gaza killing women and children indiscriminately with all manner of horrors such as White Phosphorus, Flechette bombs, Inert Metal Bombs and God only knows what else. I'm not demonizing Israel. Israel is demonizing itself. What on earth happened? Did Olmert make some sort of pact with Satan?

[Rodion]

Why are you so amazed? I'm sure you've studied the same history as I have.

I know, I know. It's just so... freaky. The person actually looks at us, looks at Hamas and goes "yep, these are clearly the bad guys." And not just "bad", he perceives us as some sort of demons on Earth. And I mean he literally thinks we (or, in the brief moments of clarity, our government) made a pact with Satan. How scary is that?

Writing the word 'Nazi' 24 times

It's 94. You fail once more.

[sploop!]

these are clearly the bad guys.

Israel killed hundreds of innocent kids last week for no sensible reason. Clearly, Israel is the bad guy.

You failed 94 times. And without answering to the point being made once. Well done! Good job!

[War Angel]

How scary is that?

Scary, if you have to share the same country with the likes of him, perhaps... but we don't, Rodion my friend. Not anymore.

Israel killed hundreds of innocent kids last week for no sensible reason. Clearly, Israel is the bad guy.

You know, even logically, that fails.

You failed 94 times

Rodion has still used the word 'Nazi' less times than you have - in the past week.

[Dr House]

There's enough unreasoned hysteria about Israel that such tactics would be lost in the ever-competing narratives of Israel and Palestine. It is already widely believed by the anti-Israel camp that Israel assaults Palestinians with indiscriminate ferocity (even though it doesn't), so why would it matter if it actually did?

Israel is a fat sadist trying to boil a frog in front of a small child - the frog is Palestine, the small child is the watching world. If the fat sadist drops the frog into a pan of boiling water, there is a good chance the frog will try to leap out, and it will be necessary to grab it again, and maybe hold it under the water with a stick until it is dead. There is a very good chance the small child will scream and cry in horror at the sadist's actions, and will forever treat the sadist with suspicion and fear. However, if the sadist were to put the frog in a pan of cold water, and gradually bring it to the boil, there is a good chance the frog won't put up too much of a fight, and the watching child may not even realise what is going on. The future relationship between child and sadist might be quite comfortable, even though the frog will still be dead

That's why Israel cannot get on with the final solution in a swift efficient manner. It isn't palatable, and it is counter-productive. Israel wants to eliminate the Palestinians in a way which will not lead to it being expelled from polite society. It wants to do things this way because it wants to sell its goods to the rest of the world. And the rest of the world will only continue to buy if it can be lulled into thinking that the sadist is not an evil monster. But it's still going to kill the frog.

Thanks for proving Donald's point, Sploop.

(Why did I enter this thread? I never get into the Israel-Palestine bullshit).

[War Angel]

(Why did I enter this thread? I never get into the Israel-Palestine bullshit).

Get out while your virginity is still safe!

[jaycola]

Israel has, in my opinion, been somewhat negligent in it's bombing of innocent civilians hiding in UN compounds, and, if it turns out to be true, when bombing buildings that were to provide safe refuge for innocents. The fact that some Israeli Soldiers lost their lives to friendly fire only strengthens the charges.

Israel had, for it's part, warned civilians of intended targets and that action alone, I am certain, saved countless of others from being harmed.

There is no question, however, that Hamas purposefully attacks Israel from within densely populated locations and actively uses human sheilds to further their goals.

(HAMAS MP) Fathi Hammad: "[The enemies of Allah] do not know that the Palestinian people has developed its [methods] of death and death-seeking. For the Palestinian people, death has become an industry, at which women excel, and so do all the people living on this land. The elderly excel at this, and so do the mujahideen and the children. This is why they have formed human shields of the women, the children, the elderly, and the mujahideen, in order to challenge the Zionist bombing machine. It is as if they were saying to the Zionist enemy: "We desire death like you desire life."

Israel should use care when taking military action to mitigate the loss of innocent lives but Hamas surely shares the burdon for the excessive loss of life.