Another no-brainer from Hamas - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Political issues and parties in Israel, Gaza and the West Bank.

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By SouthBeirut
#1789933
That was a wrong move by Hamas, that will sure raise lots of doubts within the Palestinian population in Gaza. They've got to apologize to the Palestinian people and to the UN. Maybe it was a move to control the distribution of the goods in the territories to raise its fame within the Palestinian people, but even if that was the goal, it was done wrong.

I'm sure that if the Embargo is lift up, they won't need the UN. Money will come from all Arab countries, reconstruction would start immediately and Hamas will start getting some brand new rockets and missiles.
By tudodude
#1790586
That was a wrong move by Hamas, that will sure raise lots of doubts within the Palestinian population in Gaza. They've got to apologize to the Palestinian people and to the UN. Maybe it was a move to control the distribution of the goods in the territories to raise its fame within the Palestinian people, but even if that was the goal, it was done wrong.

I'm sure that if the Embargo is lift up, they won't need the UN. Money will come from all Arab countries, reconstruction would start immediately and Hamas will start getting some brand new rockets and missiles.

MMMMMMMMMMM............ Ensh Allah!!
By Maas
#1791417
The UN got more to appologize to the Palestinians since they have failed to do anything against the Israeli 60 year + oppression.
Something like Yugoslavia was resolved a heck of a lot faster.
User avatar
By muzioler5
#1793365
The UN ought to be disbanded. You are essentially letting the wolves vote whats for dinner. The UN will inherently be biased against Israel simply due to the UN's balance between Muslim nations and Jewish nations. Plus, the Muslim nations tend to buy the votes of various other nations through oil which also weighs in on the decisions.

Yugoslavia was resolved faster simply because it involved NATO and the EU, not some bureaucratic monstrosity. The UN is toothless and Im glad it is. Otherwise we'd be ruled by a vote amongst dictatorships.

And as for the topic at hand, it doesn't surprise me that Hamas stole the goods. People tend to forget that there is still a factional war there happening between Hamas and Fatah. While I am admittedly biased towards Abbas, people ought to look at whats going on in Gaza compared to whats going on in the West Bank as to see which group has been more successful. Rubble in one area, moderate peace and some progress in the other.
By sploop!
#1793385
^
and some progress in the other.

Please explain how that progress can be measured.
By jaycola
#1793421
The Arab states are steadily moving away from showing any support of Hamas.

Hamas is a criminal organization whether or not they were duley elected by Palestinians.

Hitler, Mugabe and Raul Castro were all elected.
Olmert was elected by the Israeli's. Does that mean the actions of his government are legitimate?

I don't think Palestinains in Gaza are getting what they bargained for when the elected Hamas.

A rights group has accused Palestinian organisation Hamas of killing or maiming alleged collaborators and political opponents in Gaza.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7881182.stm

Gazans Tell How Hamas Used Them As Human Shields
http://www.rightsidenews.com/2009020135 ... ields.html

I wish people would stop blindly supporting these Tyrants.
User avatar
By muzioler5
#1793437
sploop! wrote:Please explain how that progress can be measured.


I mainly base it on economic progress, but its damn hard to find actual data that splits Gaza and the West Bank. I've heard many accounts of economic improvements in the West Bank from various sources, but can't find the economic data. If you could, I would gladly retract my statement and will anyways given the fact that I can't find it myself.

Still, some non-statistical sources....

1) http://www.google.com/url?sa=U&start=1&q=http://tonyblairoffice.org/2008/12/tony-blair-hails-economic-prog.html&ei=MqqRSbb2GpqWsAPun_CiCw&usg=AFQjCNFAqaWFXgPMaEY5lTBsolq5qVsgBA

2) http://www.google.com/url?sa=U&start=3&q=http://www.brookings.edu/interviews/2009/0114_west_bank_gaza_dhillon.aspx&ei=MqqRSbb2GpqWsAPun_CiCw&usg=AFQjCNEiAjj4ARzF6v_GKRUF0si2rACHQA

The second refers specifically to Ramallah and notes that the other cities aren't improving that much. Still, compared to Hamas's policies, even maintaining some economic stability is a positive.
By sploop!
#1794593
Even your sources don't go as far as to suggest that the differences between the West Bank and Gaza are due to who is in control of each area. Ramallah is the entry point for Aid, and is doing well purely because of that. There is no evidence to suggest that a 'better' relationship with Israel is helping Ramallah in any way. The rest of the West Bank is in a pretty desperate state - it isn't possible to point at any advantage for them from having Fatah in control. And gaza has been desperate for a long, long time - certainly for longer than Hamas have been around.

If the argument is that the more 'agreeable' approach to Israel that fatah offers is benefitting the Palestinians, then the evidence is simply not there. Something much more significant is going to need to happen to convince people that Hamas is a lost cause.
User avatar
By muzioler5
#1794680
While it is true that Gaza has been doing poorly for a long time now, my point was not about how "a better relationship with Israel is helping Ramallah", it was merely to show the differences in the two areas and associate their state with the current ruling party.

The two branches, Hamas and Fatah, have followed drastically different paths over the course of the last few years. It could be argued that Hamas had a better chance of succeeding given that Israel completely pulled out of Gaza while Israel maintains checkpoints and settlements in the West bank. Both areas have been provoked by Israel yet only one of the parties actively promotes terrorism. It shouldn't be a surprise that that party's area is also the one under rubble.

As for whether Fatah's more agreeable approach is benefiting the Palestinians in the West Bank compared to Hamas's approach, I think there is quite a bit of evidence. In one region there is moderate growth in certain areas and at worse, recession in other parts. Compare that to Gaza where a good percentage of the population is now homeless yet is still devoting needed resources to firing rockets into Israel.
By Maas
#1795351
The UN ought to be disbanded. You are essentially letting the wolves vote whats for dinner. The UN will inherently be biased against Israel simply due to the UN's balance between Muslim nations and Jewish nations. Plus, the Muslim nations tend to buy the votes of various other nations through oil which also weighs in on the decisions. Yugoslavia was resolved faster simply because it involved NATO and the EU, not some bureaucratic monstrosity. The UN is toothless and Im glad it is. Otherwise we'd be ruled by a vote amongst dictatorships.

The difference beteen Nato and the UN is, that Nato doesn't got members who are able to make it toothless by using a veto. It's exactly the country spreading democracy acting like a dictator, while the dictators are acting democratic in the UN. And than muslim nation bribe stuf.... that's just a xenophobic conspiracy thing. At the time the US is using the veto it is when the western world remains undecided but usually are disagreing with the US. It still has yet to be the case that even... most of the werstern world is against it and the muslim + the rest of the world thinks differently.


And Fatah vs Hamas....
I think you have to consider that the Israeli's left the gaza strip, while they increased building structures in the westbank by 60% last year.
So in Gaza there is poverty and distruction while there is ethnic cleansing in the westbank. :hmm:
User avatar
By muzioler5
#1795545
Maas wrote:The difference beteen Nato and the UN is, that Nato doesn't got members who are able to make it toothless by using a veto. It's exactly the country spreading democracy acting like a dictator, while the dictators are acting democratic in the UN. And than muslim nation bribe stuf.... that's just a xenophobic conspiracy thing. At the time the US is using the veto it is when the western world remains undecided but usually are disagreing with the US. It still has yet to be the case that even... most of the werstern world is against it and the muslim + the rest of the world thinks differently.


Thats the only good thing about the UN... the veto in the security council. Its the one thing that prevents countless "police actions" from taking place based on the whims of countries. If the UN wasn't "toothless", we'd certainly be in a lot more wars all across the world. Who cares what you say or do when its other people's troops who fight or other nations who suffer.

As for the comment being xenophobic, thats hardly the case. We've seem numerous times where the Muslim countries unite to achieve political goals against specific countries. The biggest one that is still having ramifications over how the West acts is the 1973 oil embargo. Its quite amusing that that was about the same time that Europe titled away from its pro-Israel attitude. As for specific instances where we have the Western world against the Muslim countries and their lackeys, just look at the recent defamation against religion vote in the UN. Or look how the wording of bills gets done in anti-Israel measures. It shouldn't be surprising the Muslim nation's influence in the UN, they have the numbers.

And Fatah vs Hamas....
I think you have to consider that the Israeli's left the gaza strip, while they increased building structures in the westbank by 60% last year.
So in Gaza there is poverty and distruction while there is ethnic cleansing in the westbank. :hmm:


Ethnic cleansing is a big, big word with a pretty specific meaning that gets thrown around a lot. I'll use Merriam Webster's definition "the expulsion, imprisonment, or killing of an ethnic minority by a dominant majority in order to achieve ethnic homogeneity." How exactly is that occurring in the West Bank? It appears that you believe settlements, which don't kick Arabs out of the West bank, somehow ethnically cleanses the West Bank? Thats a far, far stretch. The vast majority of settlements are in areas where there are no Palestinians but yet open area. Plus, considering that settlements appear to have a small, if any, impact on the final peace there is no reason to consider it ethnic cleansing.

Infact, there is only one group out there actively proposing ethnic cleansing over a territory and that is Hamas. Yet, we are to forgive them for their desire to ethnically cleanse? Israel is expected to tolerate attacks by Hamas and not fight back? Here is a part of Hamas's charter

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."


That, right there, is ethnic cleansing. Ethnic cleansing is proposing and actively seeking the annihilation of another ethnic group, not expanding on territory that will probably be given back and doesn't contain Palestinians.
By Dilaudid King
#1795894
tudodude wrote:http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7875171.stm

Stealing aid fore there own gains. These people make me sick. Kick them out by what ever means necessary.
I am sure they don't want peace but rather a long drawn out battle of power......... And please, will the media EVER stop giving them a bias which helps them operate.......... And I though Israel were bad!!!

They needed the stuff and so did alot of other men, women and children. They went around the city and handed the stuff out. That's what the stuff was sent there for- to be used- hamas people live there too. At least they were brave enough to go get the stuff and hand it out to everyone in need- considering what the Israeli military is prone to doing to people who are caught shipping humanitarian aid. That's probably why it sat there for so long- cause nobody wanted to go near it, they were probably afraid they'd get killed.

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