[starman2003]

Jordan's Arab Legion was not a Balkan nazi import. It was formed of highly trained Beduoin Arabs, with British officers.

the Arabs lost several times more men, tanks and aircraft than the Israelis, despite having a clear advantage in that area

In fact in qualitative terms, Arab aircraft, in particular, were poor. The MIG-21 had a single 23mm gun and two crummy Atolls; the IDF Mirage had two 30mm guns and much better air to air missiles. Arab T-55s were inferior to Centurions and M-60s. The IDF also often had significant tactical advantages; on Golan and several times in Sinai, their tanks could often just sit and inflict losses in defense.

[War Angel]

The Jordanian military, to this day, is considered the best in the Middle East in terms of quality (except Israel, of-course). Even back in 1967, they fought valiantly against Israeli paratroopers. They enjoyed superior British training and they were good, professional soldiers. I recall that back in 1994, Israelis and Jordanians met and shook hands, having respected each other.

The Egyptians were knows to be inferior soldiers, often fleeing in the face of danger, badly equipped and badly trained (if at all). They did, however, have an advantage Jordan never had - numbers. The elite in Jordan, willing to fight and die, is small.

In fact in qualitative terms, Arab aircraft, in particular, were poor. The MIG-21 had a single 23mm gun and two crummy Atolls; the IDF Mirage had two 30mm guns and much better air to air missiles. Arab T-55s were inferior to Centurions and M-60s. The IDF also often had significant tactical advantages; on Golan and several times in Sinai, their tanks could often just sit and inflict losses in defense.

They also had T-62 tanks, a LOT of SAM and AT missiles... they were better equipped, and had the clear advantage of initiative and surprise. As for tactical advantage... Israeli soldiers are trained to be innovative, move around, take advantage of momentary lapses in the enemy's attention, where-as Arab soldiers follow a far more conservative doctrine. That's probably why they could never truly facilitate their initial success.

[Bosnjak]

@Starman Excuse I meant Hussein Al Mini with the Handzar SS Unit, + Ustase + German Nazis who flead to the Arab world, and organized the Arab Armies.

I thought you mean the Arab Legion, "Freies Arabien" excuse.

[Sayed Zakerya]

The Jordanian military, to this day, is considered the best in the Middle East in terms of quality (except Israel, of-course). Even back in 1967, they fought valiantly against Israeli paratroopers. They enjoyed superior British training and they were good, professional soldiers. I recall that back in 1994, Israelis and Jordanians met and shook hands, having respected each other.

Jordanians are similar to the Lebanese & Palestinians. All are very tough & determined Fighters. In Jerusalem 1948, 1967 & Karama battles the jordanian soldiers proved their strength & high quality.
The Lebaneese fighters demonstrated their capabilities in Bent Jebeel & Maron El Ras Battles when they threw the IDF soldiers out of the towens with Shame.
The Palestinian fighters in Quastel 1948, Gaza Strip 1967, Kerama 1968, Genin 2003 & Gaza 2009 have crushed IDF soldiers & succeeded to beat them with very primitive means.

The Egyptians were knows to be inferior soldiers, often fleeing in the face of danger, badly equipped and badly trained (if at all). They did, however, have an advantage Jordan never had - numbers

In 17 oct 1973, the 16th infantry divisions soldiers slaughtered 300 Paratrooper out of Dani Matt 600 troops ( According to an Israeli description). Through the War 2000 IDF soldiers lost their lives in Suez Front while 700 were killed in Golan heights ( According to the doubtfull IDF numbers). The more important was the unquestioned Victory that was fulfilled against these IDF gangsters. Did you say inferior!!

Israelis and Jordanians met and shook hands, having respected each other

Regarding Shake hands, I doubt that any Egyptian Soldier has ever shook hands with IDF gangsters. IDF Dirt is what you will get only.

[War Angel]

Jordanians are similar to the Lebanese & Palestinians.

Actually, they stand in very bright contrast.

In Jerusalem 1948, 1967 & Karama battles the jordanian soldiers proved their strength & high quality.

Indeed, often fighting to the last man. They were royal troops, loyal to their country. They've inflicted severe casualties upon the Israelis, even in close combat.

The Lebaneese fighters demonstrated their capabilities in Bent Jebeel & Maron El Ras Battles when they threw the IDF soldiers out of the towens with Shame.

The Palestinian fighters in Quastel 1948, Gaza Strip 1967, Kerama 1968, Genin 2003 & Gaza 2009 have crushed IDF soldiers & succeeded to beat them with very primitive means.

Oh, stop it, you...

According to the doubtfull IDF numbers

IDF numbers are always dead-on accurate. Each soldier has a family, has friends, people who love him\her - there's no 'tomb for the anonymous soldier' in Israel. They all have names. When they say 2,656 soldiers died, that's the EXACT number. Not lower, not higher.

Regarding Shake hands, I doubt that any Egyptian Soldier has ever shook hands with IDF gangsters. IDF Dirt is what you will get only.

Aye. Egyptian soldiers, who fled combat and abused captives, would not get any respect. The Jordanian legionaries, however, were referred to as 'lions', and were treated accordingly post-war. There is honour among soldiers, but some soldiers still do not share this honour.

[Sayed Zakerya]

ye. Egyptian soldiers, who fled combat and abused captives, would not get any respect. The Jordanian legionaries, however, were referred to as 'lions', and were treated accordingly post-war. There is honour among soldiers, but some soldiers still do not share this honour.

At least now you are 60 % closer to the mere facts. I mean you share me in respecting the Jordanian troops & the disgrace of IDF bastard soldiers. I am happy to differ with you regarding the Egyptian soldiers. A coincidence between our understanding is a nightmare which will mark the prevail of ignorance.

[Bosnjak]

Gaza 2009 have crushed IDF soldiers & succeeded to beat them with very primitive means.

Gaza was a Pat-Situation, the Israelis could nothing gain nor the Palestinians, what is realy amazing for an Army who has huge New Year Rockets.

[Nets]

Regarding Shake hands, I doubt that any Egyptian Soldier has ever shook hands with IDF gangsters. IDF Dirt is what you will get only.

Foolishness.

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=91496

[Sayed Zakerya]

Foolishness.

Your article is 30 years old. This article viewed feelings did not stop IDF war criminals from killing kids & women since then till Gaza 2009. It is amazing to note some Israelis relating honor with IDF children killers cowards. The article may had some meaning if Peace were maintained in parallel with the described (Official) celebration. This did not happen because of the Zionist project targets. It is never honorable to shake hands with children killers.

[Nets]

It is never honorable to shake hands with children killers.

Now you see why there was such a visceral reaction to the Oslo accords in Israel. Or are you saying Hamas and the PLO aren't child killers?

Look, I'm sure you view the IDF as child killers just as much as I despise child killers like the PLO, PFLP, Hamas, Bashar al-Assad and other "Peace Partners" being foisted on Israel, but sometimes you have to compromise.

[War Angel]

but sometimes you have to compromise.

Netsy, soldiers shaking hands after the war is done with is not peace, nor is it compromise. It is a sentiment that escapes Sayed here - and that is honour. Israeli soldiers who fought against the galant, brave Jordanian troops in 1967 shook their hands respectfully afterwards, because they had held them in high regard - due to their prowess in combat and honourable conduct. The Jordanians felt the same way. There's little animosity left, once the fighting ceases.

[Sayed Zakerya]

Now you see why there was such a visceral reaction to the Oslo accords in Israel. Or are you saying Hamas and the PLO aren't child killers?

Are you equating PLO to Hamas now. But lets check Histry :-



You are right. According to the chart both sides have killed children. With this evidence IDF is equal to Hamas & PlO!!---Is that true or may be IDF is killing children little more---or far more . Does being " far more " children killers any worse than the " far less" children killers. I shall leave this for you to answer.

[Nets]

Intent matters, Sayed. When the PLO would shoot up a nursery school or hijack a bus, the intent was too kill children. When Hamas chooses to fire missles from inside school compounds, the intent is to kill their own children knowing it will bring a counter attack.

And yes, I see no difference whatsoever between the PLO and Hamas, I am open to negotiations with both.

[Sayed Zakerya]

Intent matters, Sayed. When the PLO would shoot up a nursery school or hijack a bus, the intent was too kill children. When Hamas chooses to fire missles from inside school compounds, the intent is to kill their own children knowing it will bring a counter attack.

that is interesting. But what is the intent of IDF with this chart High red bars?

[Nets]

Look, it isn't the fault of the IDF that Islamic Jihad and Hamas will either

(a) hit soft targets like pizzerias and dance clubs.
(b) will only fight in (if they choose to fight at all and not just hide in their bunkers after firing off a few missiles) in densely populated areas.

If you can show me an instance of heavy urban warfare between a professional military and terrorist groups I'd be happy to compare it.

[Sayed Zakerya]

And yes, I see no difference whatsoever between the PLO and Hamas, I am open to negotiations with both

So do you find no problem of Hamas controlling the Palestinian Authority establishments & security forces. In addition, you will support the Two state solution with Hamas controlling the Palestinian state.

[Nets]

I don't personally give a shit who is on the other side, it could be Saddam Hussein for all I care. I would support a two-state solution with any government of Palestine that would

(1) End all terror against Israelis

That is really my only condition. I could honestly care less whether or not the potential Arab entity in Gaza and the WB recognizes Israel, as if we need their recognition.

I would happily trade away 99% of the OTs for a cessation of all terror indefinitely and a drop of all claims against Israel. I think most Israelis feel this way too, they just haven't seen any positive correlation between trading territories and decreased terror (at least in the last 20 years or so).

A two-state solution is the only way to go.

[Sayed Zakerya]

I don't personally give a shit who is on the other side, it could be Saddam Hussein for all I care. I would support a two-state solution with any government of Palestine that would

(1) End all terror against Israelis

That is really my only condition. I could honestly care less whether or not the potential Arab entity in Gaza and the WB recognizes Israel, as if we need their recognition.

That is a positive thinking, Nets. Recognition would always form an obstacle. With the approval of withdraw from WB, the dismantling of the Settlement & permitting a Palestinian state that is ruled by the elected Paletinian people representatives, peace may have a chance. This would restore the pre-1967 status. Practically this is the best for now.

[Bosnjak]

(1) End all terror against Israelis

You have to negotiate with Hamas, the Fatah is by many palestinians considered as Kapos (who guards them for the Israelis).

[LehmanB]

I would support a two-state solution with any government of Palestine that would..

two states?
its not two states.
its 23 to one.
half to the other.

after the sad true kidding-
Israel simply cant give up areas too close to her most strategic matters- airport, capital city, the mountains whom phisicly control the beach.
israel actualy went straight in your direction.
what have happen?
the Idf pulled his hands off- > IRAN entered instead. (Gaza).
it doesnt end.
the question- for the long run- do you realy think Israel could ever allow total discontrol over her own land ?!(from river jordan to the mid sea its one phisical land, no matter how many countries you will dress on it.)

peace will slowly come, but only when israel will be stable. the recognition in the reality- in israel, its the first step. hamas wasnt invented from the air. - he smells israel pulled her hands off, and that nessecerily brings those groups in. stable israel is the FIRST condition to any positive process. unstable israel is a ringbell to Ahmadinajad and his fellows to come out.

Shalom Achshav is stupidity. Shalom should come in its time; not before. that will bring the oposite result.!