[LehmanB]

Why do you think Palestinians have so many health problems in the first place?

Because incest is very common there. Though as they get far from the Bedouine tradition, incest become less common, though marriages between cusins is very common anyway. Also, many never leave their village, which sort of contains one large family. So for the better case they marry a second or third cusin. This is still common today. Now many many children do have severe problems indeed, in compared to the regular population. So I know a person who work in a hospital here and she talked with an Arab colegue, and from 6 children, 3 severely ill. From birth. Indeed he married his cusin. Many are still healthy, but many are not.

Jews in the other hand face a different type of deseases: chronic deseases or elderly deseases. Brest cancer and skin cancer is far common among Jews. Also diabetic and allergies. Arabs faces these illness far less.

Each group with its problems.

Just a sidenote. You can continue the debate lol

[Brother of Karl]

That's fantastic!
First shoot 'em and then treat 'em. The Nazi Germans never treated the Jews after shooting 'em, so they're a lot worse.

Why do you think Palestinians have so many health problems in the first place?

Because they don't want to play by Israel's game even for a second. If they had leadership that would just play lip service for a little while to Israel's meager demands: recognize its right to exist and stop shooting rockets, they would be entitled to their own sovereignty within 3 years. But no, they'd rather live in ghetto conditions because of ego. Doesn't anyone wonder why Syria, Jordon or Egypt won't accept Palestinian refugees?

[Jihsan]

Because incest is very common there. Though as they get far from the Bedouine tradition, incest become less common, though marriages between cusins is very common anyway. Also, many never leave their village, which sort of contains one large family. So for the better case they marry a second or third cusin. This is still common today. Now many many children do have severe problems indeed, in compared to the regular population. So I know a person who work in a hospital here and she talked with an Arab colegue, and from 6 children, 3 severely ill. From birth. Indeed he married his cusin. Many are still healthy, but many are not.

Jews in the other hand face a different type of deseases: chronic deseases or elderly deseases. Brest cancer and skin cancer is far common among Jews. Also diabetic and allergies. Arabs faces these illness far less.

Each group with its problems.

Just a sidenote. You can continue the debate lol

Hi LehmanB,

Nice to see you again. I take your points as I know you can be reasonable to debate with.

There are similar health problems to what you mention in the Pakistani community. It's quite sad and they must learn to stay away from mixing with very close relations. This does cause a lot of disabilities and from what you're saying they should be thankful for any treatment they receive from Israel and destroy all the bloody kassam rockets. But, I can see why the Palestinians can be very stubborn - As I explained, they've lost a lot of land and blood to Netanyahu's expansionist policies. You have to try and understand this from their perspective and it's not going to be easy for both groups to gain trust... it will be a lengthy process so please have patience. I completely agree when people say their attitudes are very anti-Israel and even anti-Jewish. This nonsense has been ingrained into their education system and is very unlikely to change until Israel helps them with their progress. So far, it seems that Israel has given up all hope and treat them very harshly. I hope we can agree that both groups are at fault here?

As for my harsh questions and interrogation to newbie abu afak ...I was trying to push the limits to see if he can stay calm and debate without losing it :lol (he has done well so far): Him not realizing that I actually support Israel and the Jewish people and hope for a future when they can live together in peace.

Now Zionism is a different question.

[LehmanB]

Hello Hello Jishan. my work is filling my days. Plus, I try to limit my exposure to the computer when I return home cause its way too much combining it with my work.. (I will stop to complain right here) :>

Well, Israel certainly cares for the Jewish people first. (Sort of- it slowly becomes "all citizens" state compared to the older nationalistic times.. but still- I sit on a land that could potentionaly be occupied and rulled by others). Now, am I the worse scam as they picture me? no.. Israel even give medical care for the non citizens Arabs. cause you know- its kinda complecated that they live in an autonomy. Anyway, I do understand why they will feel national resentment.

And I do get why you might get upset when people brag that they are the best that happen to the Arabs here- well indeed we did contribute to them in some ways, but we rule here instead of them. Yet its not the worse thing that have happen to local Arabs here. I'm speaking on the situation in which the Arab league betrayed them. Reminding you that in 48 Jordan and Egypt took every slice of land that Israel didn't mannaged to capture. With the approval and support of GB.. So on what independency are they yearning about? The Palestinians are been fucked by both sides. Well I take care for my people. But Arab dictates fuck their own citizens and brothers. Enough of this incest!! Anyway- they should stop be self-victims whiners that think that Israel owe them everything cause it doesn't lead them to anywhere. Where they live so badly partly because Arab states isolate them and abuse them on purpose. I ignore the bragging of the purity of my state, and see that it was meant to the obsessed demonizors of mine.. I think that you see it too, but sure I can understand why you still quips the debators here if you want to reveal their agenda
:P

[Xbow]

What exact benchmarks would the Palestinians have tpo be achieved to be allowed political rights?

How about refraining from launching thousands of Qassam rockets/ year into Israel, blowing up school buses and coffee shops for a five year period? Is that too tough? You know why it is too tough? Why that would be because no single controlling entity speaks for all Palestinians. So just who should Israel deal with and will any agreement be honored by all Palestinians? If the answers are I don't know and No then what is the point of negotiating and giving anything away.

[Foreign1]

OK so lets assume you are right. (this is another one of those no win situations for obvious reasons )

So what are you exactly expecting? The Palestinians to thank Israel for stealing 95% of their homelands because Israel provides good health care afterwards? Should the Palestinians be thankful their homes were bulldozed, if they hadn't been bulldozed, they'd be no one to look after their health?
Should they be celebrating? should they "pay extra" for their healthcare? would it help if some healthy Palestinians were to "donate" their organs to help fellow Israeli citizens? I'm confused, can you please elaborate? why is this supposed to be good news for Palestinians? you want to show the world that Israel actually looks after their victims?

By the way, I fully support Israel's right to exist and their right to Palestine... but I'm not entirely satisfied with their justification.

Just to mention, according to the legitimate-history, when jews immigrated to Israel, the land was empty, filled with dust, mud puddles and ponds. The Arabs lived in their uncivilized trash-homes, with no capital and no reign. Jews were the ones built the country.

Arabs were the ones to start a war with Jews (before there even was Israel), and Jews were the ones to finish it, with a win. There's nothing to do with their pity and how Israelis are selfish, ego-centered, moronic and abusive to the Arabs. There was a fair war, that started by the will of Arabs, and we won it. That's why we live in Israel, and Palestinians in Gaza and some territories of Israel.

[Jihsan]

^^
First, I think you may need to change your avatar, it's against forum rules and welcome to Pofo

Secondly, if I "discovered" a large area of landmass completely empty and deserted in North America or Europe, would it be OK to settle there (building nuclear weapons to defend myself and my unique people) and beg millions of other followers of my unique Religion known as the "Flying Spaghetti Monster" (FSP) to come and join me from all across the world?

By the way, the religious scripture of my "Flying Spaghetti Monster" clearly says the "Highest Lord Spaghetti" promised the land to our people a few million years a go, so there.

[Wrath_014]

^^
First, I think you may need to change your avatar, it's against forum rules and welcome to Pofo

Secondly, if I "discovered" a large area of landmass completely empty and deserted in North America or Europe, would it be OK to settle there (building nuclear weapons to defend myself and my unique people) and beg millions of other followers of my unique Religion known as the "Flying Spaghetti Monster" (FSP) to come and join me from all across the world?

By the way, the religious scripture of my "Flying Spaghetti Monster" clearly says the "Highest Lord Spaghetti" promised the land to our people a few million years a go, so there.

It is based on Jewish history on this land....

[Jihsan]

It is based on Jewish history on this land....

Nothing to do with Judaism or Jews. It's just an analogy identical with the history of Israel. Think about it. Only the people who believe in any given Religion (be it the "Flying Spaghetti Monster") find that specific Religion credible. The outsiders will have nothing to do with it and they'll refuse to believe any scripture or text or any historical findings and you cannot force them to accept it. Therefore the pretext cannot be used in the International court of Law. For example the Church of Scotland does not recognize that there is a right for a Jewish state to exist.

[Foreign1]

Firstly, smartass, it is OK. That's how the world works, that's how the civilization was developed.

Secondly, it's not about a "promised land", but about our full-autonomy, and our historical-accordance legitimization. And there goes my "thirdly", the UN approved our existence and settle in "Palestine" in 1948, there was made a vote, a legitimate, legal, lawful, justified and fully-sense-making vote. What can I say, if most of the representatives of the worldwide countries voted "YES" for a governmental, residential, official settle of a new country named Israel that will be governed by the Jewish nation, then this is the way it would and should be.

Forthly, the promise of God to the Jewish nation (according to the Old Testament) took place in approximately 5,700-6,000 years ago. And if my religion was based on and rooted from the Judaism, I wouldn't be so ignorant about its existence and sense (as Christianity and Islam are based on and rooted from the Old Testament, if you would like to know).

Here you go, fella.

[Jihsan]

I stopped right there:

UN approved our existence and settle in "Palestine" in 1948

In my analogy, I could always create my own F.U.N supported with donations by my extremely rich "Flying Spaghetti Monster" elites? Will that be OK then?

[Foreign1]

When you say it this way... Hmmm.. I think it will still stay OK from me. This is how the world works, if you want to change it, you have to start from the beginning. You're talking not about Israel already, but about the commercialization and globalization and capitalistic-dependence of the world. It has nothing to do with Israel, but if you're to snob to admit it.

[Jihsan]

When you say it this way... Hmmm.. I think it will still stay OK from me. This is how the world works, if you want to change it, you have to start from the beginning. You're talking not about Israel already, but about the commercialization and globalization and capitalistic-dependence of the world. It has nothing to do with Israel, but if you're to snob to admit it.

This is why I support Israel but hate everything they stand for. (specially the immoral and illegal ways it was founded)

Brutality, tortures, bombings, wars, chemical weapons, genocides, ethnic cleansing, racism, bribes, large donations, propaganda, threats, assassinations and terrorism.

All you had to do was say "please" to the Palestinian people and they'd have welcome you with open arms.

[Foreign1]

Haha oh my god, you just have said the MOST ridiculous, foolish, nonsense, baseless, abashing, rubbish, meretricious, hypocritical, nauseous and obnoxious comment in this thread if not in the whole forums. So paradoxical and oxymoronic, come on dude... ARE YOU KIDDING?!

I don't know what propagandists you're miring, but those are definitely lying apes which are racist, unfair, unjustified, moronic and senseless propagandists in the whole history of the earth.

Brutality, tortures, bombings, wars, genocides, ethnic cleansing, racism, propaganda, threats, assassinations and terrorism; what an exact definition of the reign of Gaza Strip, The Hamas. How could you even get so unfocused and misdirected? Are you atleast reading some international news? Or just listen through the trashed radio to your Islamic propagandists?

As there is the true definition of Israeli actions: large donations, chemical weapons (which are never used against anyone), medical care and worldwide support, systematically organized military forces, contribution to the world, bullshitty politicians, bribing capitalists, worldwide trading/marketing tycoon, economical influence and extremely generous, righteous, ethical and willful activism.

You just made me laugh when I saw your post, and I AM SURE, that most of the readers were laughing with me.

[Foreign1]

Oh, I forgot, yes... The Palestinians would probably welcome us with open arms, open arms with a knife in their palms. Preferable just to fight in and accept the war, and not to be blind and get trapped by your racist-brutal-bullying-pigs.

[Jihsan]

I don't think you seem to understand my position. All the things I listed above can be verified by Jewish and Western human rights activists groups with credible sources [ http://www.btselem.org/ ]. There is absolutely no way the formation of Israel can be justified. In the same way European colonialists cannot justify "discovering" America (how the f*** can you discover a country when a people already lived there for thousands of years)... or the Canadian and Australians justify cleansing the countries Natives/Aborigines... However, that's all history and they've at least attempted to accept the facts and write History books and teach children at school about their colonial past and slavery. They've accepted the fact that they've done wrong and even made apologies to the Native people.

This is why most people have no problems with USA, Canada and Australia because they've accepted their colonial history and moved on.

However, all Israel (and it's supporters) does it try to justify the formation of Israel and it's current policy and the bullshit about it's Religious history and Holocaust... etc. That has nothing to do with the Palestinian people (blame Germany for that). Israel pretends they are the victims. When the whole bloody world knows the truth. If and when Israel acknowledges it's history, it's past mistakes and apologies to the Palestinians... then and only then they'll be in the same camp as U.S, Canada and Australia. That's why technically speaking I support Israel as a State (because it's too late to turn the clocks back), but not the way it was created. Actually, no one in their right mind will accept the way Israel was created. The world would be in a big mess. It will give the green light for others to follow your path.

[LehmanB]

Israel pretends they are the victims. When the whole bloody world knows the truth. If and when Israel acknowledges it's history, it's past mistakes and apologies to the Palestinians... then and only then they'll be in the same camp as U.S, Canada and Australia.

Here you touch a point in which I disagree of: the responsibility of the Arabs to what hae happen to themselves.

Notice that I do acknoledge I harm Arabs; But I avoid blaming the survivoe, as socialists loves to do. Arabs pretty much did everything they could to prevent our independency and destroy us.. perhaps they should apologize (to us and to their own people)? Also, through their attacks they have succeeded to limit Israel to a minimum of a city state while they are great empires. Notice that non Arab is independed- they are all governed by dictates- like the Palestinians in Jordan or Syrians..
Israel do harm Arabs.. but its kinda a bloody game of throwns here.. I do think that the Arabs, including Palestinians, are safe, whatever their political rights are... reminding you the proportions. I think the approach to Israel is not to blame them for living here saying they ignore they harmed X, but understanding Arabs just harmed us too, and insisting on imperialism basically...

[steve71]

The figure of 219,464 is grossly inaccurate, and this is actually admitted in the article.

These numbers include companions accompanying the patients to Israel.

It's a nice way to pad the figures! According to this article a child accompanied by both parents would count as 3 patients. Another possible way to pad the figures would be to include multiple visits in the total. Then a child accompanied by both parents and who requires two treatments would count as 6 patients. I'd take these figures with a pinch of salt tbh.

[abu afak]

I don't think you seem to understand my position. All the things I listed above can be verified by Jewish and Western human rights activists groups with credible sources [ http://www.btselem.org/ ]. There is absolutely no way the formation of Israel can be justified. In the same way European colonialists cannot justify "discovering" America (how the f*** can you discover a country when a people already lived there for thousands of years)... or the Canadian and Australians justify cleansing the countries Natives/Aborigines... However, that's all history and they've at least attempted to accept the facts and write History books and teach children at school about their colonial past and slavery. They've accepted the fact that they've done wrong and even made apologies to the Native people.

This is why most people have no problems with USA, Canada and Australia because they've accepted their colonial history and moved on.

However, all Israel (and it's supporters) does it try to justify the formation of Israel and it's current policy and the bullshit about it's Religious history and Holocaust... etc. That has nothing to do with the Palestinian people (blame Germany for that). ....

Trite Misconceptions.

Unlike Australia or America, which are not questioned nearly as much as Israel...
1. Jews have/had a History in the land.
2. Jews had a Continuous Presence in that land, if small at times.
2a. At one point, app 1625, Jews were again 1/4 of the population before yet another expulsion.
3. Jews were not given all of the Mandate, nor even Lesser Palestine, but app Half of it.
Were American Indians or Aborigines offered HALF of America/Australia/Canada etc?
4. Half of that Half was the sparse and thought-useless Negev Desert.
5. The Whole Ottoman Break-up could similarly be construed as illegitimate ('Jordan', 'Iraq', 'Lebanon', etc)
6. The partition plan entailed NOT a single Arab being moved; just a change of sovereigns for a small minority. A minority that would finally get to vote, Unlike under all previous sovereigns. As well as getting (but rejecting) a near 100% Arab Muslim state they refused. No one offered the Kurds (a TRUE people) anything of 'Iraq'.
7. The plan was approved/voted on by a world body.. UN.. Unlike the USA or Australia.

see my
Myth #1: Israel is "Stolen Land"
viewtopic.php?f=78&t=149509
`

[abu afak]

This is why I support Israel but hate everything they stand for. (specially the immoral and illegal ways it was founded)

Brutality, tortures, bombings, wars, chemical weapons, genocides, ethnic cleansing, racism, bribes, large donations, propaganda, threats, assassinations and terrorism.

All you had to do was say "please" to the Palestinian people and they'd have welcome you with open arms.

Ecept Israel was 'founded' by the UN, and there was no "genocide".
`