[ArtAllm]

So you think there is a chance he may spy for a foreign country again, after being kicked out of the US intelligence community?

Israel did not return the stolen documents, and Pollard is the guy who can read and interpret them.

As I stated back then, the burden of proof fell on Shahak not on those who say he wasn't telling the truth.

Sorry, but that does not make any sense, that is ridiculous.
If you call somebody a liar, YOU have to prove that the person was lying.
That is so obvious, there is no need to discuss it.

Would you call any other Jewish witness a liar, say an inmate of a NS-Camp, if this eyewitness cannot prove what he tells in his memoires?

Yes or no?

Moses Maimonides and Ovadia Yosef explicitly told that it is forbidden for a Jew to save the life of a non-Jew on Sabbath.

Wrong.

Ovadia Yosef said that it is forbidden for ONE religious jewish physician to treat a gentile on sabbath. He clearly stated that it takes TWO members of the medical staff to treat one gentile on sabbath. Which also implies that jews should first and foremost respect the laws of the (secular) state.

The rabbi offered a halachic solution that follows a rule by which if a single person is doing the act, he is violating the Sabbath, while if two people are doing it together, they are exempt.

The crucial point is that a Jewish doctor can violate the Sabbath, when another Jew has to be rescued.

The "halachic" solution is pure racism!

If there is no second person, then the non-Jew will die.
And it is idiotic to talk about a nurse holding the scalpel.
What a nurse or second doctor? A non-Jewish nurse or a Shabbat goy?

[wat0n]

You are not making any sense. Do not be scared to form structured arguments. If you have something to say just go ahead and say it.

To be more specific, why doesn't the PA's report claim that the car ramming was done by an Israeli?

Papadimas was given power of attorney after the Patriarch was confirmed. You are not making any sense again.

Indeed, and others got similar powers to continue with the management of the daily affairs of the Church.

It is you who isn't making any sense now.

The Ecumenical Councils of the Pan-Orthodox Synod which represents the entire Orthodox World elected both of these 2 Patriarchs which Israel refused to recognise, that means that no such internal conflict existed at any point. These were the Elected leaders as confirmed by the Pan-Orthodox Global Organisation. And it means that the State of Israel does not respect the entire Orthodox world, its structure and its decisions.

Nothing here provides any moral or legal basis for such acts of hate & disrespect towards the entire Orthodox religion which caused problems in the maintenance of the Tomb of Jesus Christ, which froze the Patriarchate's bank accounts and which forbade their leaders to enter the country and prevent them from exercising their Holy Duties.

And yet there are now two sources stating that there are conflicts within the Church, the PA report with regards to the case of Iraneios and the recent al-Monitor article on the fight between the Arab and Greek priests.

Of course the Patriarchs were elected since Greeks are overrepresented on the high ranking positions of the Church, like the Synod. That's not too surprising.

Bring evidence that Orthodox priests pressed charges against their Patriarch and that they disrespected the decisions taken in Unanimity by the Pan-Orthodox Synods.

Already did. Now you are mad because the evidence doesn't fit your narrative.

I will carry on posting my arguments until you address them. Yes I will:

Also done, you are free to stay mad because you cannot provide any answer to the fact that the sources do not fit your narrative.

Israel did not return the stolen documents, and Pollard is the guy who can read and interpret them.

So you believe Israeli intelligence could not interpret them? Nonsense.

Sorry, but that does not make any sense, that is ridiculous.
If you call somebody a liar, YOU have to prove that the person was lying.
That is so obvious, there is no need to discuss it.

So obvious that courts of law require that accusations that someone committed a crime (as Shahak alleged) must be proven by providing evidence that this was the case.

Speaking of, why didn't Shahak just sue this Orthodox Jew?

And why did Jakobovits state that Shahak himself told him he had lied on the matter?

At last, and the final nail in the coffin, Shahak claimed in his 1994 book that religious authorities never "reversed the ruling" even though the Chief Ashkenazi of Israel issued a responsa (a ruling) stating clearly that it was allowed to save the life of a non-Jew on the Sabbath shortly after Shahak went public with the alleged incident. Care to explain how this isn't a lie?

Would you call any other Jewish witness a liar, say an inmate of a NS-Camp, if this eyewitness cannot prove what he tells in his memoires?

Yes or no?

Depends on the case. In the case of people who were confined in concentration camps in WWII, there are a few stories that have been proven to be false, including by the admission of this alleged inmate.

Others have been proven to be true based not only on eyewitnesses but also on actual material evidence.

[noemon]

To be more specific, why doesn't the PA's report claim that the car ramming was done by an Israeli?

Nobody knows who rammed the Patriarch's car, but we do know that it was rammed as soon as he refused to lease the land to the settlers. And we also know that these same settlers threatened him directly if he does not give them the land, they threatened him in person after his car had been rammed when he refused them the lease. We also know that these settlers are being directly financed by the state of Israel who is also the state that froze the Church's bank accounts and banned him entry into the country. The elected leader of the Global Orthodox Community to represent the Community in the Holy Land.

Indeed, and others got similar powers to continue with the management of the daily affairs of the Church.

Are you claiming that someone was running the church affairs and managing the Holy Sites during the freezing of the Church's bank accounts and the banning of its leaders from entering the country?

Because if you do claim such a thing, then we both know you are wrong and dishonest.

Of course the Patriarchs were elected since Greeks are overrepresented on the high ranking positions of the Church, like the Synod. That's not too surprising.

The pan-Orthodox Synod representing Global Orthodoxy. Why is Israel persecuting the elected leaders of the entire Orthodox Global Community in the most ancient Church in the world?

Already did. Now you are mad because the evidence doesn't fit your narrative.

Nope you never did, and that is why there is nothing to be seen anywhere, when and if you do I will consider your evidence until then stop pretending that Israel has any moral or legal basis to dispute the decisions of Global Orthodoxy. These decision were not disputed by anybody inside the Church, Bishops can raise their concerns during the Synods before the elections, once elections take place the decisions are final.

Also done, you are free to stay mad because you cannot provide any answer to the fact that the sources do not fit your narrative.

I am not mad at all, but I will continue posting my arguments until you address them with something other than "bullshit", "non-sense", "I already imagined my replies" which is all you have provided so far.

The fact of the matter is that the Israeli government froze the bank accounts of the Patriarchate of Jerusalem, banned entry to its leaders, directly financed the far-right groups who explicitly threatened the Patriarchs who refused to lease land to them. The Patriarch had his car rammed, his life threatened. The report confirms that the Greek church has inferior legal status to the Catholic church, further confirming the fact of ethnic & religious discrimination in Israel not just for Arabs but for Europeans as well.

Unlike yourself who has already admitted of being dishonest, I am being very honest with you, you are refusing to answer the questions and address the arguments. Here you go again because clearly you have a bad memory:

The court ruling very explicitly recommends to the State of Israel to consider whether it can allow 2 Israeli Muslims to settle in a new exclusively Jewish neighborhood.
You are begging me to state that because of this ruling Israel is not racist when it comes to land management, but this does not follow, in fact the court itself admits that Israel is racist when it comes to land management. This is further verified by an Israeli professor, by the Israel Land Authority wiki article, by the al-Kurd family case, by the UN, the European Parliament and by the ordeals that Christians Churches like the Greek-Orthodox church have to face in Israel. I really don't get what your expectations are here.

[wat0n]

Nobody knows who rammed the Patriarch's car, but we do know that it was rammed as soon as he refused to lease the land to the settlers. And we also know that these same settlers threatened him directly if he does not give them the land, they threatened him in person after his car had been rammed when he refused them the lease. We also know that these settlers are being directly financed by the state of Israel who is also the state that froze the Church's bank accounts and banned him entry into the country. The elected leader of the Global Orthodox Community to represent the Community in the Holy Land.

And they threatened him with leaking the whole thing to the press as they did. Are you saying they should have kept mum after the person he gave power of attorney to had agreed to lease the said properties?

Furthermore, the whole issue of recognition arose because other Orthodox priests lodged criminal complaints.

Are you claiming that someone was running the church affairs and managing the Holy Sites during the freezing of the Church's bank accounts and the banning of its leaders from entering the country?

Yes, just as he gave powers to Papadimas to act as attorney.

Because if you do claim such a thing, then we both know you are wrong and dishonest.

Aaww you are mad

The pan-Orthodox Synod representing Global Orthodoxy. Why is Israel persecuting the elected leaders of the entire Orthodox Global Community in the most ancient Church in the world?

Except that it isn't, and this doesn't negate what I said. Greeks are overrepresented in the Church.

Nope you never did, and that is why there is nothing to be seen anywhere, when and if you do I will consider your evidence until then stop pretending that Israel has any moral or legal basis to dispute the decisions of Global Orthodoxy. These decision were not disputed by anybody inside the Church, Bishops can raise their concerns during the Synods before the elections, once elections take place the decisions are final.

Even the PA's report states explicitly there was opposition to Iraneios' election. As a refresher:

The land of the monasteries, especially the holy places related to the Patriarchate, was either a property or a trust to the appointed head. This has been the practice over the years. The appointment of favorites to head the monasteries or the holy place was a means to buy the appointed archimandrite or bishop. Changing this situation and reorganizing and reforming the status-quo and the imposition of financial control on all monasteries and channeling and recording their revenues to the Patriarchate treasury, was a factor that caused grumbling and dissatisfaction and was a motive for opposing the Patriarch.

I am not mad at all, but I will continue posting my arguments until you address with something other than "bullshit", "non-sense", "I already imagined by replies" which is all you have provided so far.

Of course you aren't mad, that's why you have launched personal attacks against me and have refused to read the sources non-selectively. Right?

Yup, you are mad.

[noemon]

And they threatened him with leaking the whole thing to the press as they did. Are you saying they should have kept mum after the person he gave power of attorney to had agreed to lease the said properties?

Straw that does not address the actual questions.

Furthermore, the whole issue of recognition arose because other Orthodox priests lodged criminal complaints.

Evidence.

Yes, just as he gave powers to Papadimas to act as attorney.

Dishonesty, Ireneos granted Papadimas power of attorney after he was confirmed by Israel, during his persecution by Israel refusing to recognise him no-one was maintaining the Holy Sepulchre and the Tomb of Jesus Christ. He couldn't do so even if he wanted to.

Except that it isn't, and this doesn't negate what I said. Greeks are overrepresented in the Church.

The Pan-Orthodox Synods is the Global Orthodox Organisation. The History of Greeks in Global Orthodoxy is well-known but irrelevant. You sound like antisemites who claim the Jews are overrepresented in media, banks and conspiracy theories.

I cannot bother with your insults and ad-homs. Feel free to call me whatever it is you wish.

The fact of the matter is that the Israeli government froze the bank accounts of the Patriarchate of Jerusalem, banned entry to its leaders, directly financed the far-right groups who explicitly threatened the Patriarchs who refused to lease land to them. The Patriarch had his car rammed, his life threatened. The report confirms that the Greek church has inferior legal status to the Catholic church, further confirming the fact of ethnic & religious discrimination in Israel not just for Arabs but for Europeans as well.

Unlike yourself who has already admitted of being dishonest, I am being very honest with you, you are refusing to answer the questions and address the arguments. Here you go again because clearly you have a bad memory:

The court ruling very explicitly recommends to the State of Israel to consider whether it can allow 2 Israeli Muslims to settle in a new exclusively Jewish neighborhood.
You are begging me to state that because of this ruling Israel is not racist when it comes to land management, but this does not follow, in fact the court itself admits that Israel is racist when it comes to land management. This is further verified by an Israeli professor, by the Israel Land Authority wiki article, by the al-Kurd family case, by the UN, the European Parliament and by the ordeals that Christians Churches like the Greek-Orthodox church have to face in Israel. I really don't get what your expectations are here.

[wat0n]

Straw that does not address the actual questions.

From their perspective, a representative of the Church agreed to lease properties to them like other Patriarchs had done.

Evidence.

Background section of the report.

Dishonesty, Ireneos granted Papadimas power of attorney after he was confirmed by Israel, during his persecution by Israel refusing to recognise him no-one was maintaining the Holy Sepulchre and the Tomb of Jesus Christ. He couldn't do so even if he wanted to.

By persecution, you mean that while the criminal investigation was carried out and he was cleared of all charges?

The Pan-Orthodox Synods is the Global Orthodox Organisation. The History of Greeks in Global Orthodoxy is well-known but irrelevant. You sound like antisemites who claim the Jews are overrepresented in media, banks and conspiracy theories.

I cannot bother with your insults and ad-homs. Feel free to call me whatever it is you wish.

And as such, you shouldn't be surprised that there were (and are) locals who were (and are) not happy with how the Church is managed. Why wouldn't they when they are cast aside within its structure?

Also, I can't help to note how convenient it is that you simply ignored the section of the PA's report that states explicitly that there was opposition to Iraneios within the Church, and also why this was the case.

The usual modus operandi is in full force.

[noemon]

From their perspective, a representative of the Church agreed to lease properties to them like other Patriarchs had done. By persecution, you mean that while the criminal investigation was carried out and he was cleared of all charges?

Straw that does not address the persecution 2 Elected Leaders of Global Orthodoxy faced in Israel being denied access to the Holy Land and to the bank accounts of the Church they lead.

Background section of the report. Also, I can't help to note how convenient it is that you simply ignored the section of the PA's report that states explicitly that there was opposition to Iraneios within the Church, and also why this was the case.

The background section of the report mentions abstract 'opponents' it does not provide any evidence for criminal charges being pressed by Orthodox Priests to the Orthodox Patriarch as you claimed, I did not ignore your silly claims I asked you to provide evidence for them. You have not done so because such evidence does not exist. If you find them I will have a look at them. Until then you are simply confirming what you have already admitted from yesterday that you are being intentionally dishonest.

And as such, you shouldn't be surprised that there were (and are) locals who were (and are) not happy with how the Church is managed. Why wouldn't they when they are cast aside within its structure?

Straw and your argument that Greeks are overrepresented in the Global Orthodox Church is exactly the same argument antisemites use against the Jews being overrepresented in stuff.

The fact of the matter is that the Israeli government froze the bank accounts of the Patriarchate of Jerusalem, banned entry to its leaders, directly financed the far-right groups who explicitly threatened the Patriarchs who refused to lease land to them. The Patriarch had his car rammed, his life threatened. The report confirms that the Greek church has inferior legal status to the Catholic church, further confirming the fact of ethnic & religious discrimination in Israel not just for Arabs but for Europeans as well.

Unlike yourself who has already admitted of being dishonest, I am being very honest with you, you are refusing to answer the questions and address the arguments. Here you go again because clearly you have a bad memory:

The court ruling very explicitly recommends to the State of Israel to consider whether it can allow 2 Israeli Muslims to settle in a new exclusively Jewish neighborhood.
You are begging me to state that because of this ruling Israel is not racist when it comes to land management, but this does not follow, in fact the court itself admits that Israel is racist when it comes to land management. This is further verified by an Israeli professor, by the Israel Land Authority wiki article, by the al-Kurd family case, by the UN, the European Parliament and by the ordeals that Christians Churches like the Greek-Orthodox church have to face in Israel. I really don't get what your expectations are here.

[wat0n]

Straw that does not address the persecution 2 Elected Leaders of Global Orthodoxy faced in Israel being denied access to the Holy Land and to the bank accounts of the Church they lead.

Already addressed, you refuse to acknowledge it because you are mad.

The background section of the report mentions abstract 'opponents' it does not provide any evidence for criminal charges being pressed by Orthodox Priests to the Orthodox Patriarch as you claimed, I did not ignore your silly claims I asked you to provide evidence for them. You have not done so because such evidence does not exist. If you find them I will have a look at them. Until then you are simply confirming what you have already admitted from yesterday that you are being intentionally dishonest.

It states that the opponents of the Patriarch lodged the complaint, and the only opponents mentioned are those within the Church.

But you are mad so you will refuse to read it

Straw and your argument that Greeks are overrepresented in the Global Orthodox Church is exactly the same argument antisemites use against the Jews being overrepresented in stuff.

Not really, the Palestinian Orthodox complain that they lack representation and you provided a reason for this: The election of the Patriarch has to be approved by the Orthodox churches outside the region.

At least you have stopped to deny that these complaints even exists. It's some progress, though I am pretty sure you are still mad if you want to link me with anti-Semites.

[noemon]

So your arguments are that I am a mad person. Right.

It states that the opponents of the Patriarch lodged the complaint, and the only opponents mentioned are those within the Church.

Complaint and opponents are abstract terms, you need to specify them, if I lodge a complaint somewhere against the Rabbi Head of England, will his bank accounts be frozen in the UK? You 're not making any sense, you need to become specific if you want your claims to be taken seriously.

It's some progress, though I am pretty sure you are still mad if you want to link me with anti-Semites.

You are making exactly the same argument as them, they claim Jews are overrepresented and you claims Greeks are overrepresented and that somehow justifies their persecution by the State of Israel. Exact same thing.

The fact of the matter is that the Israeli government froze the bank accounts of the Patriarchate of Jerusalem, banned entry to its leaders, directly financed the far-right groups who explicitly threatened the Patriarchs who refused to lease land to them. The Patriarch had his car rammed, his life threatened. The report confirms that the Greek church has inferior legal status to the Catholic church, further confirming the fact of ethnic & religious discrimination in Israel not just for Arabs but for Europeans as well.

Unlike yourself who has already admitted of being dishonest, I am being very honest with you, you are refusing to answer the questions and address the arguments. Here you go again because clearly you have a bad memory:

The court ruling very explicitly recommends to the State of Israel to consider whether it can allow 2 Israeli Muslims to settle in a new exclusively Jewish neighborhood.
You are begging me to state that because of this ruling Israel is not racist when it comes to land management, but this does not follow, in fact the court itself admits that Israel is racist when it comes to land management. This is further verified by an Israeli professor, by the Israel Land Authority wiki article, by the al-Kurd family case, by the UN, the European Parliament and by the ordeals that Christians Churches like the Greek-Orthodox church have to face in Israel. I really don't get what your expectations are here.

[wat0n]

So your arguments are that I am a mad person. Right.

My argument is that you are refusing to read the sources.

Being mad (as in, angry) is an easy inference.

Complaint and opponents are abstract terms, you need to specify them,

I think they are quite clear in the report, and that section in particular.

if I lodge a complaint somewhere against the Rabbi Head of England, will his bank accounts be frozen in the UK? You 're not making any sense, you need to become specific if you want your claims to be taken seriously.

Well, you could try and see. If you have insider knowledge of corruption within the Rabbinate (akin to that of the priests of the Church) you have a good chance that a full-blown inquiry will be carried out.

You are making exactly the same argument as them, they claim Jews are overrepresented and you claims Greeks are overrepresented and that somehow justifies their persecution by the State of Israel. Exact same thing.

Not really. Firstly, as you said that's just how the Greek Orthodox Church works - if they don't like it they can switch to another one. The anti-Semites claim Jews are overrepresented in areas in which there is competition, such as certain markets, professions or political parties which are most certainly not comparable to a religious institution.

Secondly, it would not be a prerogative of the Israeli government to launch a criminal investigation over the ethnic makeup of the Greek Orthodox Church. Now, if there were instances of actual criminal behavior - like the example of Papadimas himself, who according to the report abused his powers and not only disposed of properties in the name of the Patriarch in a way he didn't wish, but most of the money deposited as payment from the leases he was managing disappeared from the Church's account which is clearly criminal, it would also be criminal if the Patriarch himself did something like that - things would be different. Just don't expect the Palestinian Orthodox to be happy with it.

[noemon]

My argument is that you are refusing to read the sources. I think they are quite clear in the report, and that section in particular.
Being mad (as in, angry) is an easy inference. If you have insider knowledge of corruption within the Rabbinate (akin to that of the priests of the Church)

You "think"? I have read the report time and time again and nowhere is it stated that Orthodox priests pressed criminal charges against their Patriarch, what you think about me or the sources is quite irrelevant the only thing that matters is what is, and your claim is nowhere to be seen. Since you cannot provide any evidence for your fantastical assumptions it is safe to assume that no such criminal charges were pressed by Orthodox Priests against their Patriarch, in fact the report states explicitly that the Patriarch himself oblivious as to why the state of Israel does not let him into the country and as to why it froze the Orthodox Churches bank accounts he had to hire a lawyer just to find out the why, and he was given the excuse that he is being investigated, he was not given any charges against him by someone. The next Patriarch faced exactly the same ordeal. And of course we both know why that is don't we? Because umm..I don't know perhaps because they control the largest amount of land in Israel? And because paid agents of the Israeli state have been trying to wrestle it away from them through threats? I mean it could be, don't ya think?

Not really. The anti-Semites claim Jews are overrepresented in areas in which there is competition, such as certain markets, professions or political parties which are most certainly not comparable to a religious institution.

No, really, in the Orthodox church there is plenty of competition between people to rise as it is a democratic(actually republican following the carbon copy of Roman law) institution with many contenders from many countries and usually very highly educated in the liberal arts(PhD is required). The Orthodox church follows the blueprint of elected republicanism, same accusation antisemites throw for overrepresentation of Jews in Congress, Senates, other governments in the world, corporations and so on and forth, antisemites are not arguing this because they are trying to be historical they are trying to justify the persecution of said people from said posts just like you are trying to justify the persecution of Greeks from these posts. There is absolutely no difference between them and you in this regard. This is as disconcerting to me as these people are to you.

Now, if there were instances of actual criminal behavior - like the example of Papadimas himself, who according to the report abused his powers and not only disposed of properties in the name of the Patriarch in a way he didn't wish,

Papadimas is a layman and he was never charged in Israel despite his criminal behaviour, perhaps because he served the interests of the State of Israel. And besides the next elected Patriarch was also persecuted by the State of Israel.

but most of the money deposited as payment from the leases he was managing disappeared from the Church's account which is clearly criminal, it would also be criminal if the Patriarch himself did something like that - things would be different.

The entire bank accounts disappeared, not just the money and in the instances that the report could find the bank accounts, they could not find all the money ever deposited in many of these accounts, which would render the contracts null and void anyway.

[wat0n]

You "think"? I have read the report time and time again and nowhere is it stated that Orthodox priests pressed criminal charges against their Patriarch, what you think about me or the sources is quite irrelevant the only thing that matters is what is, and your claim is nowhere to be seen. Since you cannot provide any evidence for your fantastical assumptions it is safe to assume that no such criminal charges were pressed by Orthodox Priests against their Patriarch, in fact the report states explicitly that the Patriarch himself oblivious as to why the state of Israel does not let him into the country and as to why it froze the Orthodox Churches bank accounts he had to hire a lawyer just to find out the why, and he was given the excuse that he is being investigated, he was not given any charges against him by someone. The next Patriarch faced exactly the same ordeal. And of course we both know why that is don't we? Because umm..I don't know perhaps because they control the largest amount of land in Israel? And because paid agents of the Israeli state have been trying to wrestle it away from them through threats? I mean it could be, don't ya think?

More precisely, I infer that from the section.

I wonder which other opponents could have it referred to? Aliens?

And if Theophilos III had to go through the same ordeal, it's for the same reason: The awful relations within the Church (then but also now, judging from the protests against him late last year).

No, really, in the Orthodox church there is plenty of competition between people to rise as it is a democratic(actually republican following the carbon copy of Roman law) institution with many contenders from many countries and usually very highly educated in the liberal arts(PhD is required). The Orthodox church follows the blueprint of elected republicanism, same accusation antisemites throw for overrepresentation of Jews in Congress, Senates, other governments in the world, corporations and so on and forth, antisemites are not arguing this because they are trying to be historical they are trying to justify the persecution of said people from said posts just like you are trying to justify the persecution of Greeks from these posts. There is absolutely no difference between them and you in this regard.

And yet Patriarch Iraneios didn't even speak English, as stated in the PA's report. Nonsense.

And now you are trying to compare me to anti-Semites, cute.

Papadimas is a layman and he was never charged in Israel despite his criminal behaviour, perhaps because he served the interests of the State of Israel. And besides the next elected Patriarch was also persecuted by the State of Israel.

Lol, he fled the country to avoid prosecution accoridng to the report. His wife was caught in Greece in the process as I assume you read.

The entire bank accounts disappeared, not just the money and in the instances that the report could find the bank accounts, they could not find all the money ever deposited in many of these accounts, which would render the contracts null and void anyway.

Yeah, they were likely deposited in Papadimas' account to avoid raising suspicions or simply for convenience.

The fact is, he was responsible for managing the payments safeguarding the Church's interests which he seemingly didn't do according to the report.

[noemon]

More precisely, I infer that from the section.
I wonder which other opponents could have it referred to? Aliens?

The people who accused him of antisemitism because he met with Yasser Arafat as the report states, sounds like the Israeli financed settlers to me. The same people who threatened and the same people related to Papadimas as it turned out.

And if Theophilos III had to go through the same ordeal, it's for the same reason: The awful relations within the Church (then but also now, judging from the protests against him late last year).

Theophilos had to go through the same ordeal, there is no if there, as you said Israel has no business in judging the ethnic-make up the the Patriarchs, so I do not see why you use that as an argument.

And yet Patriarch Iraneios didn't even speak English, as stated in the PA's report. Nonsense.

So? The Greek PM can hardly speak English and do all Jewish Rabbis speak english? Your point is that since the Patriarch does not speak english he is uneducated? That's a new one but still a straw, what's your point exactly? I don't see why you feel the need to insult the Greek-Orthodox Patriarch? Is it the same feelings that drive antisemites emanating?

And now you are trying to compare me to anti-Semites, cute.

You are doing exactly the same thing as them and you are not even denying it or changing your position one bit, so you are doing a fine job on your own copying their tactics. I find you as disconcerting as you find them.

Lol, he fled the country to avoid prosecution accoridng to the report. His wife was caught in Greece in the process as I assume you read.

Can you show me the relevant part where it says "prosecution"? I know he fled the country, but I do not remember seeing the word prosecution, honestly if you point it to me I will accept it though especially since this is completely irrelevant to our conversation since Papadimas is in fact a layman, an accountant related to the settlers financed by Israel, not an Orthodox Archbishop.

Yeah, they were likely deposited in Papadimas' account to avoid raising suspicions or simply for convenience.

The fact is, he was responsible for managing the payments safeguarding the Church's interests which he seemingly didn't do according to the report.

Most likely, I don't see your point though and how that justifies the persecution of the Orthodox Archbishops by the state of Israel? Papadimas had absolutely nothing to do with that. The contracts would still be null and void if the money have not been paid to the Patriarchate as the contracts demand and hence why they were trying to find the money as defined in the contracts.

[wat0n]

The people who accused him of antisemitism because he met with Yasser Arafat as the report states, sounds like the Israeli financed settlers to me. The same people who threatened and the same people related to Papadimas as it turned out.

Oh really? The report uses the term contender when referring to those people:

Background

Ireneos' path was not paved with roses when he assumed the leadership of the Patriarchate. From the beginning of his election to the post as Patriarch of the Holy City, he found himself engulfed with strong and shrewd opposition and contenders having close contacts with countries, officials and strong politicians in Israel, Jordan, Greece and Russia, etc.

His contenders did not concede his victory and election as a Patriarch. They continued their attacks on him from all directions. They managed to convince the Israeli Government that Ireneos is anti-Semitic and is not comfortable to the Israeli government. No, on the contrary, he was a pro-Palestinian. They reinforced this claim by showing copies of letters and meetings with the late President Yaser Arafat. The refusal of the Israeli government to recognize him after his election impeded him from executing his basic duties as Patriarch.

For some reason, I very much doubt Israeli settlers would have been contenders to the post.

The report also mentions that:

5. A very well calculated plan unfolded before us. It was schemed by a number of clerics opposing Ireneos in collaboration with Israeli Extreme Right Wingers. Their interest converged in the aim of getting rid of Ireneos step by step.

Theophilos had to go through the same ordeal, there is no if there, as you said Israel has no business in judging the ethnic-make up the the Patriarchs, so I do not see why you use that as an argument.

I am not. But, do not be surprised if some Arab priests try to launch a criminal case against him.

So? The Greek PM can hardly speak English and do all Jewish Rabbis speak english? Your point is that since the Patriarch does not speak english he is uneducated? That's a new one but still a straw, what's your point exactly? I don't see why you feel the need to insult the Greek-Orthodox Patriarch? Is it the same feelings that drive antisemites emanating?

How can you get a PhD in the 21st century if you don't speak English?

I don't doubt Iraneios' credentials as an Orthodox priest were exceptional (including in Canon law) but that doesn't make him a good administrator, necessarily. And the leader of a religious institution that manages several million dollars a year needs to be one.

And yes, speaking English, at least at a basic level, is definitely necessary. Even more so if you have to deal with several governments.

You are doing exactly the same thing as them and you are not even denying it or changing your position one bit, so you are doing a fine job on your own copying their tactics. I find you as disconcerting as you find them.

Sorry noemon, just like you take Palestinian claims on Israel for granted, I take Palestinian claims on the Greek Orthodox Church for granted too.

It's not my fault if you find the claims racist.

I also very much doubt that the elections for the Greek Orthodox Church are competitive, and most definitely not competitive like a democratic one.

Can you show me the relevant part where it says "prosecution"? I know he fled the country, but I do not remember seeing the word prosecution, honestly if you point it to me I will accept it though especially since this is completely irrelevant to our conversation since Papadimas is in fact a layman, an accountant related to the settlers financed by Israel, not an Orthodox Archbishop.

Why else would he flee I wonder?

Most likely, I don't see your point though and how that justifies the persecution of the Orthodox Archbishops by the state of Israel? Papadimas had absolutely nothing to do with that. The contracts would still be null and void if the money have not been paid to the Patriarchate as the contracts demand and hence why they were trying to find the money as defined in the contracts.

I'm simply blaming Papadimas, who most definitely did not act in good faith.

[noemon]

Oh really? The report uses the term contender when referring to those people:

His contenders trying to convince some Israeli people that he was antisemitic because he met with Arafat like the PM of Israel did does not mean that charges were pressed against him as you claimed, indeed the report says no such thing. Is that really your justification for persecuting him and his successor? Get a grip please.

How can you get a PhD in the 21st century if you don't speak English? And yes, speaking English, at least at a basic level, is definitely necessary. Even more so if you have to deal with several governments.

What are you talking about? Are you all still there? Are we going to discuss now the Patriarch's english speaking abilities?

Sorry noemon, just like you take Palestinian claims on Israel for granted, I take Palestinian claims on the Greek Orthodox Church for granted too.
It's not my fault if you find the claims racist.

It is absolutely your fault for using the ethnic-make up of people to justify their persecution from their elected posts. You are the one doing it just like antisemites.

I also very much doubt that the elections for the Greek Orthodox Church are competitive, and most definitely not competitive like a democratic one.

Of course, just like antisemites very much doubt the democratic election of Jews in positions of power.

Why else would he flee I wonder?

You claim he fled to avoid prosecution and that it is stated in the report, can you show me where or did you make it up?
I haven't seen it but I assume since you claim so you saw it, so where is it?

[wat0n]

His contenders trying to convince some Israeli people that he was antisemitic because he met with Arafat like the PM of Israel did does not mean that charges were pressed against him as you claimed, indeed the report says no such thing. Is that really your justification for persecuting him and his successor? Get a grip please.

Who else but Orthodox Church priests could have contended the election I wonder?

What are you talking about? Are you all still there? Are we going to discuss now the Patriarch's english speaking abilities?

You said having a PhD is a requirement for being a Patriarch. You have yet to prove that.

It is absolutely your fault for using the ethnic-make up of people to justify their persecution from their elected posts. You are the one doing it just like antisemites.

I did not say that and it cannot possibly be inferred from my post, but of course you prefer to distort what I said since you have no possible counterarguments to provide.

You do that when you get mad.

Of course, just like antisemites very much doubt the democratic election of Jews in positions of power.

Except of course that the Synod is a collegiate body, not comparable to an actual democratic election.

You claim he fled to avoid prosecution and that it is stated in the report, can you show me where or did you make it up?
I haven't seen it but I assume since you claim so you saw it, so where is it?

It is stated in the report that he fled, you should be able to infer that he did so to avoid being sued by the Church and then prosecuted - just like people who engage in similar shenanigans do.

[noemon]

Who else but Orthodox Church priests could have contended the election I wonder?

That's not the claim you made, you claimed that Orthodox priests pressed charges against him, and that these criminal charges is what "forced" Israel to freeze the church's bank accounts, your claim is fantastical and non-existent.

You said having a PhD is a requirement for being a Patriarch. You have yet to prove that.

That is what I have been told by the priests in my Church, why do I need to prove that? The priest here has 3 PhD's from Cambridge University and is merely a Priest, he is also the one who told me. Why are we discussing this again?

Why are you insulting the Patriarch by calling him uneducated?

I did not say that and it cannot possibly be inferred from my post, but of course you prefer to distort what I said since you have no possible counterarguments to provide.

You have spent 6 pages trying to justify the persecution of the Patriarchs because they are Greeks and overrepresented as you explicitly said, just like antisemites try to justify the persecution of Jews from position of power because they are overrepresented Jews. You can stop doing that but you do not seem willing to and that is what is most disconcerting. It's quite sad.

Except of course that the Synod is a collegiate body, not comparable to an actual democratic election.

Like the US electoral college and many other republican models copied from the Roman Republic which is the carbon-copy constitution of the Orthodox Church, certainly more democratic than corporations, media and other places were antisemites would like the Jews removed from. Your point is moot. You have no excuse whatsoever.

It is stated in the report that he fled, you should be able to infer that he did so to avoid being sued by the Church and then prosecuted - just like people who engage in similar shenanigans do.

His physical presence is not required to be prosecuted or even convicted in fact and since he was not we can safely assume that he actually wasn't which means that you are imagining things while I am not. You have never been very good at inferring things especially when you use those things to justify or evade other crimes.

[wat0n]

That's not the claim you made, you claimed that Orthodox priests pressed charges against him, and that these criminal charges is what "forced" Israel to freeze the church's bank accounts, your claim is fantastical and non-existent.

The report states that his contenders, opposers to the elected Patriarch lodged the complaints. Who were these people but the priests who weren't happy with the elections' results?

That is what I have been told by the priests in my Church, why do I need to prove that? :?:

Your claim, you back it up.

You have spent 6 pages trying to justify the persecution of the Patriarchs because they are Greeks and overrepresented as you explicitly said, just like antisemites try to justify the persecution of Jews from position of power because they are overrepresented Jews. You can stop doing that but you do not seem willing to.

No noemon, not only the Patriarchs weren't persecuted but as I said, and the sources claim, there are deep divisions within the Church that have led to the lodging of complaints alleging criminal behavior before Israeli justice (which has complicated the recognition of the last 2 Patriarchs by the Israeli government though it has still taken place in both cases after the mess was solved) and protests against the current Patriarch by Palestinian Orthodox who claim that Greeks are overrepresented in the Church.

Like the US electoral college and many other republican models copied from the Roman Republic which is the carbon-copy constitution of the Orthodox Church, certainly more democratic than corporations, media and other places were antisemites would like the Jews removed from. Your point is moot. You have no excuse whatsoever.

The US electoral college is elected democratically by each State, Orthodox Bishops who are part of the Synod aren't. Big difference there.

His physical presence is not required to be prosecuted or even convicted and since he was not we can safely assume that he actually wasn't which means that you are imagining things while I am not.

His presence would have most certainly have been necessary for a conviction to be effective, and fleeing most certainly suggests he knew what he was doing.

Indeed, the fact that you believe Papadimas was a layman, a simple accountant is quite notable as the obvious question would then be, why did the Patriarch, who you seem to beloeve was fit for the post, grant Powers of Advocate to someone who was unfit for the post according to you?

Why are you insulting the Patriarch by calling him uneducated?

Why are you insulting the Patriarch by saying he granted powers of advocate to a "layman" like Papadimas?

[noemon]

The report states that his contenders, opposers to the elected Patriarch lodged the complaints. Who were these people but the priests who weren't happy with the elections' results?

That's not the claim you made, you claimed that Orthodox priests pressed charges against him, and that these criminal charges is what "forced" Israel to freeze the church's bank accounts, your claim is fantastical and non-existent.

I can see you change your language now from 'pressing criminal charges' that you claimed earlier now you have switched to 'lodging complaints'.

You need to explain what kind of 'lodging a complaint' justifies the persecution of the Patriarchs of the Orthodox Church in Israel.

Your claim, you back it up.

Why? What for? I don't care if you believe it or not and it is not relevant to our conversation.

No noemon, not only the Patriarchs weren't persecuted but as I said, and the sources claim, there are deep divisions within the Church that have led to the lodging of complaints alleging criminal behavior before Israeli justice (which has complicated the recognition of the last 2 Patriarchs by the Israeli government though it has still taken place in both cases after the mess was solved) and protests against the current Patriarch by Palestinian Orthodox who claim that Greeks are overrepresented in the Church.

The Archbishops of the Orthodox Church were denied entry to the country and the bank accounts of the Church were frozen, that is institutional persecution and your justification is that they are being ethnically overrepresented and that some people accused the one of antisemitism because he met with Yaser Arafat.

I do not see any difference between you and antisemites, same cheap excuses.

The US electoral college is elected democratically by each State, Orthodox Bishops who are part of the Synod aren't. Big difference there.

No difference that provides you with a justification for their persecution, just like no justification is granted to antisemites arguing the exact same thing for the overrepresentation of Jews in corporations, lobbies and indeed in the senate or congress either.

His presence would have most certainly have been necessary for a conviction to be effective, and fleeing most certainly suggests he knew what he was doing.

It does not mean he was prosecuted as you claimed. He actually wasn't as I said and you falsely disputed by inferring wrong as you have done numerous times.

Why are you insulting the Patriarch by saying he granted powers of advocate to a "layman" like Papadimas?

I seem to belove? Why do you care or assume what are my feelings towards the Patriarch? Why do you insult the Patriarch by calling him uneducated? Is that some psychological need of yours? It's ridiculing your character.
I am not in a position to know if he was naive or complicit, effectively it does not matter, what matters is that you are justifying his persecution which took place before these events and his successor's persecution which demonstrates an institutional persecution against the Orthodox Church. It has also already been established that different churches are subject to different civil rights in Israel and that equality before the law is not for granted in Israel not even for Christians as the report also confirmed. It should also be noted that you have completely ignored the custom of Jews spitting on Christians in Israel.

[wat0n]

I can see you change your language now from 'pressing criminal charges' that you claimed earlier now you have switched to 'lodging complaints'.

That's what the prosecutor told the Israeli High Court.

You need to explain what kind of 'lodging a complaint' justifies the persecution of the Patriarchs of the Orthodox Church in Israel.

As I showed, it is not unprecedented in the West for religious institutions to get their assets frozen in the context of a legal investigation.

Why? What for? I don't care if you believe it or not and it is not relevant to our conversation.

Then there goes your attempt to claim that the election of the Patriarch is competitive.

The Archbishops of the Orthodox Church were denied entry to the country and the bank accounts of the Church were frozen, that is institutional persecution and your justification is that they are being ethnically overrepresented and that some people accused the one of antisemitism because he met with Yaser Arafat.

I do not see any difference between you and antisemites, same cheap excuses.

No, the justification is that they claimed that Irenaios had engaged in criminal behavior and that the Israeli government had to investigate the claims, as stated by the Israeli prosecutor. In the end, he was cleared of any wrongdoing and was recognized by the Israeli government right away.

No difference that provides you with a justification for their persecution, just like no justification is granted to antisemites arguing the exact same thing for the overrepresentation of Jews in corporations, lobbies and indeed in the senate or congress either.

Nonsense, you tried to make the comparison but it failed.

It does not mean he was prosecuted as you claimed. He actually wasn't as I said and you falsely disputed by inferring wrong as you have done numerous times.

He fled Israel to avoid arrest and the corresponding prosecution. Why else do you think he mysteriously left the country right when some people in the Church began to question his decisions?

I seem to belove? Why do you care or assume what are my feelings towards the Patriarch? Why do you insult the Patriarch by calling him uneducated? Is that some psychological need of yours? It's ridiculing your character.

Want to know what's really ridiculing you here? The distortion of the arguments by others and the sources by selectively reading from them, and making shit up.

I am not in a position to know if he was naive or complicit,

Ummm? You claimed he was a layman, just an accountant which implies he wasn't in a position to be complicit as he didn't know what he was doing.

effectively it does not matter, what matters is that you are justifying his persecution which took place before these events and his successor's persecution which demonstrates an institutional persecution against the Orthodox Church.

Nonsense, it's not persecution if Church priests claim the Patriarch had a criminal history, file complaints in the Israeli legal system and this leads the Israelis to open a probe on the matter.

It has also already been established that different churches are subject to different civil rights in Israel and that equality before the law is not for granted in Israel not even for Christians as the report also confirmed.

Not getting preferential taxation (compared to Israelis) is not a violation of civil rights

It should also be noted that you have completely ignored the custom of Jews spitting on Christians in Israel.

You mean the cases of Haredi Jews spitting on Christians which were condemned throughout Israeli press? Oh, but of course you would attempt to generalize this on all Jews. Fits your claims of moral and cultural superiority of the Greeks to generalize that disgusting behavior on all Jews, a pretty awful position to take on its own right. The irony is that you were quick to get pissed off when certain people generalized and claimed all Greeks were lazy freeriders back when the issue of dealing with Greece's debt crisis, and the bailouts in particular, was featuring prominently on the press.