[noemon]

justifying deaths of children

Do not see how Maas being a hypocrite equals to my justification, good thing you admit of being the same as Maas though.

and that this reason did not involve an arbitrary ethnorreligious discrimination such as "this is for Jews only!"

In an excuslively Jewish neighbourhood were the people were rejected outright and where the court did not force anyone to make them settle.

This is nonsense too, firstly because the powers of the Court are determined in its respective basic law - which has constitutional status -, but also because the bill was rejected in the end and never became law.

The Court filed a petition which means the court has no power whatsoever to enforce its decision to the state. Laughable.

If the children were targeted, why wasn't their house bombed instead of the neighboring one?

Straw-man, you claimed they were collateral, prove it or stop pretending.

[wat0n]

Do not see how Maas being a hypocrite equals to my justification, good thing you admit of being the same as Maas though.

According to your quote, any country would kill civilians like Serbian forces did when fighting in urbanized areas, but somehow you get fired up when even less civilians get killed by Israel during fighting in urbanized areas. And now I am supposed to believe you are consistent.

Okay, sure noemon.

In an excuslively Jewish neighbourhood were the people were rejected outright and where the court did not force anyone to make them settle.

The Court filed a petition which means the court has no power whatsoever to enforce its decision to the state. Laughable.

No, it was an order nisi absolute.

That's what the paragraph says, in verbatim, and that's what everyone who reads it fully, and not only subparagraph B which states in which conditions the order could be changed, can see.

Straw-man, you claimed they were collateral, prove it or stop pretending.

If they weren't targeted and yet were damaged (and in this case, killed, unfortunately) by the bombing their deaths were collateral damage by definition.

[Saeko]

How about you provide some proof of your claim that these kids were acting as human shields, Frollein?

That these children were "collateral"? Hmmm...

Why don't you provide proof that you've stopped beating your wife, noemon, hmm?

[Frollein]

Where did I claim that they were acting as human shields? Why should I prove something I never claimed?

As for collateral damage, it doesn't presume that the civilian was participating in a military conflict as a human shield.

Collateral damage is a general term for unintentional deaths, injuries, or other damage inflicted incidentally on an unintended target. In military terminology, it is frequently used where non-combatants are unintentionally killed or wounded and/or non-combatant property damage results of an attack on a legitimate military target.

[noemon]

According to your quote, any country would kill civilians like Serbian forces did when fighting in urbanized areas, but somehow you get fired up when even less civilians get killed by Israel during fighting in urbanized areas. And now I am supposed to believe you are consistent.

Get a grip, my quote only demonstrates Maas's hypocrisy since his country's army was participating in the conflict and got convicted of war crimes.

I have never justified war-crimes not pretended that they were not so. Stop being dishonest and trying to change the subject. As for your pathetic claims that these children were collateral in the line of fire during war-time, it just gets more cringe-worthy as you go along.

No, it was an order nisi absolute.

The Israeli Supreme Court had to file a petition to the state for the state to consider its decision.

And the discrimination of the JNF was reconfirmed by the Knesset in 2007, so you are not making any sense whatsoever.

If they weren't targeted and yet were damaged (and in this case, killed, unfortunately) by the bombing their deaths were collateral damage by definition.

Every time a terrorist bombs a train, only the people in the seat next to him were targets and the rest just collateral damage then. Stop being such an apologist for such heinous crimes, it's ridiculous, and it damages you as a person, aside from the fact that it damages your reputation. Collateral damage applies only when you target a valid military target, prove they hit a valid military target or seize this pathetic attempt.

results of an attack on a legitimate military target.

Prove the target was legitimate.

[Frollein]

Prove the target was legitimate.

Prove that I said the children were human shields.

[noemon]

You said:

They were hit by debris from the explosion. Collateral damage.

Your own definition of collateral damage says that it applies for legitimate military targets.

Prove then that this was a valid military target as it has been requested of you. Or seize apologising for the deaths of children. It's pathetic especially by someone like you who has no bone in the issue. Get a life at some point, there are more important things in the world than justifying this shit.

[Pisa]

Evidence these children were human shields.

All gazans are human shields for Hamas.
http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protecti ... als-370154

Are you confusing ethnic-cleansing with genocide? Ethnic-cleansing is when you remove populations from a certain area resulting to the cleansing of that area. The entire modern-day Israel has been cleansed of its Arab population and the cleansing continues in occupied West Bank & Gaza through this kind of terrorism.

I'm not confusing anything. There must be a steep decrease in population in the area that has been "cleansed", paired with a steep increase in population in the area those people have been "herded" to (Gaza, in this case). Numbers, Noemon. Statistics, not Kimmerling's ramblings.

You are citing false comparisons between states and a slum barrio in Manila, Philippines. Gaza, as a discrete part of Palestine is classified as fifth in the world for population density by indexMundi with a ratio of 5,046 persons per square kilometer (as of January 2014) in comparison to Israel's 377.
http://www.indexmundi.com/g/r.aspx?v=21000

Not all of Gaza is densely populated, only some areas, while other areas are empty. The question was, why doesn't Hamas fire rockets from the empty areas, in order to avoid the bombing of the densely populated areas.

It is the Israeli apologies that mean nothing. You asked for proof and I gave it to you. The death figures of innocent civilians in Gaza prove the utter disregard the Israelis have for Palestinian lives. The IDF deliberately targets civilian homes.
"Israel killed more Palestinian civilians in 2014 than in any other year since the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip began in 1967" and they "claimed the lives of 2,220 Gazans, of whom 1,492 were civilians."
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/27/israel-kills-more-palestinians-2014-than-any-other-year-since-1967
Proof positive; the figures tell the story.

Nope.

Let's check some of those innocent civilians' CVs.

According to PCHR:

At approximately 09:00, medical crews were able to recover bodies of 2 civilians who were killed by Israeli forces in al-Shuja'iya neighborhood in the east of Gaza City: Ismail Zuhair Mohammadain, 26; and Mo'ammar Fadel Shamali, 35.

Here's the civilian Mo'ammar Fadel Shamali:


And here (scroll through the pictures) is the other civilian, in plain civilian clothes, with a totally civilian weapon:


There are plenty more, but I'm tired now.

[noemon]

All gazans are human shields for Hamas.

"Of course", they should all just leave and be done with it, otherwise face the consequences of being born in the wrong place in the world. Your zionist logic is great. You do not realise though that this is not a zionist web-site but an international one with people that understand more than you imagine and that you make more damage to your cause than you realise.

But before you give me the known crap I've heard before from wat0n, think about this logic you put forward...when England expelled all the Jews and they moved to France or wherever, the Jewish European population was not reduced within Europe so it can be said that the Jews were not ethnic-cleansed in Europe. Apply this in your mind before you make any more embarrassing statements.

I'm not confusing anything. There must be a steep decrease in population in the area that has been "cleansed", paired with a steep increase in population in the area those people have been "herded" to (Gaza, in this case). Numbers, Noemon. Statistics, not Kimmerling's ramblings.

From 85% of the population in 1920, Arab Muslims in Israel are now 20% of the population. These are numbers dear Pisa. And it is cute that you dismiss Israeli Professors in Israel, but they have a lot more credibility than you or any other apologist.

[Zionist Nationalist]

Whats wrong with the fact that the Muslim percentage was reduced? smart people takeover stupid and incepable people thats how it works

[noemon]

That is how it used to work until the Nazis annihilated the Jews and would have wiped them off the face of the earth if the Europeans had not stopped them. From that point on this is no longer acceptable. The fact that it is Jews ethnic-cleansing others makes it...even more blah.

[Zionist Nationalist]

What happened in 1948 was shortly after ww2 and none can reverse those events anymore so if the Palestinians want peace they need to move on since no way Israel is going to let millions of fake refugees in

[noemon]

The ethnic-cleansing and reign of terror continues unabated in the West bank and Gaza and the year is 2016 not 1948. Houses get bulldozed, families uprooted, crops destroyed, children forcefully used as human shields by Israeli soldiers and Israeli Palestinians are not even allowed to marry other Palestinians. Israel is persecuting the Orthodox Patriarchs of Jerusalem, freezing Christian Church's bank accounts and not letting them enter the country and these are European Christians, I cannot even begin to fathom what Muslim Palestinians have to go through. And this is supposedly the protectors of the Holy Places of Humanity. Not even the UN is allowed in the country, Israel along with ISIS and some tin-pot African dictators, it is astonishing though that your UN membership has not already been revoked.

[redcarpet]

The reign of terror in Gaza is 95% Hamas' effect of rule, remember.

And of course, if they go, their more fundamentalist rivals take over anyway and it'll be even worse. What little retrain Hamas exercises will be gone

[noemon]

The reign of terror is little children being killed in their sleep by indiscriminate Israeli bombs.

This country is not normal, it is not anything like a liberal democracy, and since it does not even allow the UN in its territory, it should not be in the UN, it should be kicked out until it becomes normal.

[Zionist Nationalist]

I think the best solution for Gaza will be either send them to Egypt or Europe
it will be uninhabited by 2020 so they have to go somewhere

[wat0n]

Get a grip, my quote only demonstrates Maas's hypocrisy since his country's army was participating in the conflict and got convinced of war crimes.

Which war crimes did the Netherlands commit? The failure to stop the Serbs because UN peacekeeping forces were under equipped as it always happens to them?

I have never justified war-crimes not pretended that they were not so. Stop being dishonest and trying to change the subject. As for your pathetic claims that these children were collateral in the line of fire during war-time, it just gets more cringe-worthy as you go along.

The Israeli Supreme Court had to file a petition to the state for the state to consider its decision.

40. In this situation, out of a desire to take all of these factors and difficulties into account, and in order to reach an appropriate balance, we have decided to make the order nisi absolute, in the following manner:

A. We declare that the State was not permitted, by law, to allocate state land to the Jewish Agency, for the purpose of establishing the communal settlement of Katzir on the basis of discrimination between Jews and non-Jews.

B. It is incumbent upon the State to consider the petitioners’ request to purchase for themselves a parcel of land in the settlement of Katzir for the purpose of building their home, and this on the basis of the principle of equality, and taking into consideration factors relevant to the matter-- including the factors which relate to the Agency and the current residents of Katzir –and including the legal difficulties entailed in this matter. On the basis of these considerations, the State must decide, with appropriate speed, whether it can enable the petitioners, within the framework of the law, to build a house for themselves within the bounds of the Katzir communal settlement.

No, it did not. It was an order in the ruling.

Stop distorting the source, it is just sad at this point to do so.

:lol: Every time a terrorist bombs a train, only the people in the seat next to him were targets and the rest just collateral damage then. Stop being such an apologist for such heinous crimes, it's ridiculous, and it damages you as a person, aside from the fact that it damages you're reputation. Collateral damage applies only when you target a valid military target, prove they hit a valid military target or seize this pathetic attempt.

Nonsense, given the nature of the train - bombing part of it usually will destroy all of it - the comparison doesn't really apply.

[noemon]

Which war crimes did the Netherlands commit? The failure to stop the Serbs because UN peacekeeping forces were under equipped as it always happens to them?

You should look it up and open a thread about it, this is not our subject.

Stop distorting the source, it is just sad at this point to do so.

I am not distorting anything, I quoted the fact and can do so again, I am talking about the efficacy of Israeli Supreme Court Rulings to the State, not just a particular case, in the Katzir case the language is explicitly not forceful to the state otherwise there would be no "whether" in there, and when the Court filed a petition for the State to change the discriminatory laws inside the JNF which are also by virtue of law the founding principles of the ILA as well, the Court had to file a petition and the Knesset re-affirmed the discrimination in the JNF statutes again in 2007, so all in all you do have absolutely no leg to stand on when you claim that discrimination does not exist. Israeli Judges and prosecutors have protested this discrimination and it is very encouraging that they have done so, but the State does not give a crap and does as it pleases. Your confusions and mental gymnastics are quite sad indeed though.

Although the Israeli Supreme Court itself has filed a petition that the policies of the JNF violate Israeli anti- discrimination laws, the Israeli Knesset approved the renewal of the JNF Law in July 2007, in its preliminary reading allowing the JNF to continue the practice of refusing to lease land to Arab citizens.

Nonsense, given the nature of the train - bombing part of it usually will destroy all of it - the comparison doesn't really apply.

Do the same with a bomb in a house that kills every one in the block, makes no difference, the fact is that you need to provide evidence that the principle of collateral damage applies here because you claim that it does and in order to do so you need to prove that the target was a valid military target.

[wat0n]

[
I am not distorting anything, I quoted the fact and can do so again, I am talking about the efficacy of Israeli Supreme Court Rulings to the State, not just a particular case, in the Katzir case the language is explicitly not forceful to the state otherwise there would be no "whether" in there, and when the Court filed a petition for the State to change the discriminatory laws inside the JNF which are also by virtue of law the founding principles of the ILA as well, the Court had to file a petition and the Knesset re-affirmed the discrimination in the JNF statutes again in 2007, so all in all you do have absolutely no leg to stand on when you claim that discrimination does not exist. Israeli Judges and prosecutors have protested this discrimination and it is very encouraging that they have done so, but the State does not give a crap and does as it pleases. Your confusions and mental gymnastics are quite sad indeed though.

Although the Israeli Supreme Court itself has filed a petition that the policies of the JNF violate Israeli anti- discrimination laws, the Israeli Knesset approved the renewal of the JNF Law in July 2007, in its preliminary reading allowing the JNF to continue the practice of refusing to lease land to Arab citizens.

Your source is incorrect, it was a ruling, not a petition.

It's also outdated as the bill was rejected in a posterior reading.

Do the same with a bomb in a house that kills every one in the block, makes no difference, the fact is that you need to provide evidence that the principle of collateral damage applies here because you claim that it does and in order to do so you need to prove that the target was a valid military target.

The bomb didn't kill everyone in the block, though, certainly if they had used a bomb that had done so the analysis would be different.

But before you give me the known crap I've heard before from wat0n, think about this logic you put forward...when England expelled all the Jews and they moved to France or wherever, the Jewish European population was not reduced within Europe so it can be said that the Jews were not ethnic-cleansed in Europe. Apply this in your mind before you make any more embarrassing statements.

The only problem with this is that you couldn't even prove the population was kicked out from the West Bank or even area C, let alone from Palestine.

[noemon]

Your source is incorrect, it was a ruling, not a petition.

It's also outdated as the bill was rejected in a posterior reading.

I would ask for evidence if it were important, but you are welcome to explain the difference and provide the evidence of petition/ruling.

Let's get this straight though because you are quite funny, 2 Israeli Arabs in 1995 go and ask to lease land to build a home, they are told that they cannot do that because they are not Jewish, they go the courts and they win the right to build their home in 2000, the court ruling which you hail as game-changing asked from the state to consider their application and whether to allow them or not. The State decided in 2007 to eventually allow these 2 people to build their house, in the same year the state reaffirmed the JNF discrimination laws. And you are trying to convince me and yourself that this state is not discriminatory?



After all it only took them 12 years to be allowed to rent something.

The bomb didn't kill everyone in the block, though, certainly if they had used a bomb that had done so the analysis would be different.

It only killed 2 little children and nobody else and these children died rightfully on your opinion because not everyone in the block died? This is getting really cringe-worthy.

The only problem with this is that you couldn't even prove the population was kicked out from the West Bank or even area C, let alone from Palestine.

Why not from Asia, or the planet or the universe? I mean when you cleanse people from one area and they move to another area, it's not like they left Asia, or this planet or even the universe. They still "here", just not where their houses used to be.