[dosmin_pavas]

After 2 decades of failure of the Oslo process to achieve the so called two states solution its time to realize that its not working and we need to change our plan. I am open to different ideas, Anything but the Oslo process! The Oslo process for two state solution is the politically correct position, but it will not lead to peace. If you really care about peace as I do, its time to realize its a dead end!

IF you tell Israelis Israel goes out of Judea and Samaria (West bank) and there will be peace, everyone in Israel will say yes. But the world is beginning to realize, that is a very BIG IF! and that Palestinians will create a base of terror.

Lets analyze the fabric of time and space in terms of peace and well being of the Arabs and Jews:
-When Israel acquired the territories in 1967, the life of people in those territories improved. forexample their life expectancy rose from 48 years to 74 years.
- When Israel left Gaza the situation of people there got worse and we got war.
- When Israel left Lebanon the situation of people there got worse and we got war.
- When Israel Partially left Judea and Samaria the situation of people there got worse and we got terror.
- Today Israel has full control of the Golan heights. There is almost no terror and have high quality of life.
- Israel is Partially in Judea and Samaria and those people live a worse life under the terrorism of the PLO.
- Israel is absent in Gaza and people there have even a worse life.

The evidence is overwhelming. The problems of the Arabs is not Israel's presence so much as it is Israels absence.

I do not recommend the so called one state solution as it brings too many radical Muslims into Israels voting system. I suggest one of the following approaches:
- Do in Judea and Samaria what Israel is doing in Golan heights. Its working! (my favorite)
- Jordan annexes west bank.
- like US Israel can be multi-state country.

There is no perfect or ideal solution and we need to pragmatically make the best of a bad situation and middle east is a very difficult situation. Idealistic zealots create war.

Also note that we already have 2 states: Jordan and Israel

[Heinie]

After 2 decades of failure of the Oslo process to achieve the so called two states solution its time to realize that its not working and we need to change our plan. ...

The two-state solution was never tried. The Zionists have never had any intention of returning to their 1967 border.
Your post is so full of inaccurate misrepresentations that it would take too long to address every pro-Israel propaganda claim of yours.

[redcarpet]

A majority of Israelis accept the 2-state settlement. That's better than the majority of Pal.s that reject it

[pugsville]

the Israeli government has consistently taken steps to prevent the two state solution from working. which has basically destroyed the entire process.

israel controls the west bank. it has all cards. stuff only happens with their say so,

keeping the west bank divided into 200 odd zones, backing settlers when they steal and occupy privately owned Palestinian land (inout a third of all settlements are built of privately owned Palestinian land)

there is so much the Israeli could of done to work with the PA, instead they have under cut the ground from beneath the PA at every opptunuty.

[dosmin_pavas]

I do not want this post to be anti Israel hate speech or Pro Israel propaganda. If you do not like Israel then that is your problem not mine. If you Pro Israel then please give me opinions about the path to peace rather than blaming the PLO (stating the obvious). Do you think I am making sense or do you see another approach?

[Heinie]

I do not want this post to be anti Israel hate speech or Pro Israel propaganda. If you do not like Israel then that is your problem not mine. If you Pro Israel then please give me opinions about the path to peace rather than blaming the PLO (stating the obvious). Do you think I am making sense or do you see another approach?

I cannot find one sensible statement in your entire opening post. Even here you state that those who are pro-Israel should not blame the PLO and then add in parenthesis that the PLO are the obvious villains. Your suggestion that Israel should incorporate all of the West Bank, Gaza, and the Golan is against iternational law, plain and simple.

[skinster]

One secular state with equal rights for all.

[Harmattan]

One secular state with equal rights for all.

Given the hatred between them, the majority would quickly exterminate the minority. Where did the Jewish communities in the Muslim world go? Oh, yeah, they left or have been killed.

[skinster]

They left after the creation of Israel. Some left because of zionist terror in ME countries, such as what happened in Iraq.

Anyway, I stick to what I believe; one secular state with equal rights for all. If anybody doesn't like it, they can be imprisoned or deported to where they came from.

[noemon]

Given the hatred between them,

Given the very historical and planet-destructive hatred between French and Germans, you lot should be quarantined.

Where did the Jewish communities in the Muslim world go? Oh, yeah, they left or have been killed.

You can't really be serious here, all the Jewish communities fleeing Europe went to the Muslim world, the Muslim world is the only world where Jews have been traditionally accepted and the Jewish experience in the Muslim world is completely devoid of pogroms, expulsions and massacres. Muslim-Jewish animosity is a brand new phenomenon after Israel came to be. You don't really know much history of the Ottoman world and the Middle-East, do you?

[Lightman]

There has been animosity between Jews and Muslims throughout the entire history of Islam. Muhammad exiled two of three main Jewish tribes from Medina because of their apparent failure to abide by the terms of the Constitution of Medina. There has been conflict from the start (I'm not necessarily blaming the Muslims in this situation, I don't see the point in deeply moralizing one way or another about an event that occurred that long ago). Obviously there has also been a long history of collaboration and peaceful coexistence. The relationship between Jews and Muslims is ambiguous, it varies given time and place.

The creation of Israel was not the origin of anti-Semitism among Arab Muslims. The Farhud, a mass pogrom against the Jews in Iraq, occurred in 1941.

[Harmattan]

You can't really be serious here, all the Jewish communities fleeing Europe went to the Muslim world,

At this time the Muslim world was free French and English colonies.

the Muslim world is the only world where Jews have been traditionally accepted and the Jewish experience in the Muslim world is completely devoid of pogroms, expulsions and massacres.

No, it's just that you are far more knowledgeable about western wrongdoings than you are about the Muslim world. Trust me, buy yourself a few good and neutral history books about the Muslim world, this is edifying.

After that you will better enjoy the flip that did put the west in the dominant position a few centuries ago.

[Fasces]

We should arm one side so it can wipe out the other. When one side is dead, there will be no conflict.

The world just needs to leave a crate of weapons in the middle of the country, let the two sides race to get it first, and look the other way while it sorts itself out.

[Heinie]

We should arm one side so it can wipe out the other. When one side is dead, there will be no conflict.

The world just needs to leave a crate of weapons in the middle of the country, let the two sides race to get it first, and look the other way while it sorts itself out.

The USA, England, and Germany already has fully armed Israel.

[noemon]

There has been animosity between Jews and Muslims throughout the entire history of Islam. Muhammad exiled two of three main Jewish tribes from Medina because of their apparent failure to abide by the terms of the Constitution of Medina. There has been conflict from the start (I'm not necessarily blaming the Muslims in this situation, I don't see the point in deeply moralizing one way or another about an event that occurred that long ago). Obviously there has also been a long history of collaboration and peaceful coexistence. The relationship between Jews and Muslims is ambiguous, it varies given time and place.
The creation of Israel was not the origin of anti-Semitism among Arab Muslims. The Farhud, a mass pogrom against the Jews in Iraq, occurred in 1941.

1941 is not before the modern world nor before project Israel was launched. It was in fact within the political forces of Colonial Iraq when Iraq was mandated by Europeans.

At this time the Muslim world was free French and English colonies.

You are not making sense here. I don't get what you 're trying to say.

No, it's just that you are far more knowledgeable about western wrongdoings than you are about the Muslim world. Trust me, buy yourself a few good and neutral history books about the Muslim world, this is edifying.

Oh please. When you are wrong in something just get over it. There is absolutely no comparison between the experience of the Jews in Europe with the experience of the Jews in the Muslim world in history, there is no comparison between the historical animosity of French and Germans with the historical animosity between anybody else in the planet. If the French and the Germans can, anybody can. That's just a fact. I, a Greek nationalist have come to this realisation regarding Greeks & Turks for whom a lot more historical animosity applies compared to Jews & Palestinian Muslims. At some point Israeli nationalists should come to this realisation as well.

[wat0n]

1941 is not before the modern world nor before project Israel was launched. It was in fact within the political forces of Colonial Iraq when Iraq was mandated by Europeans.

When did the modern world begin under this analysis? WWI?

[noemon]

For this case before Aliyah.

[Lightman]

1941 is not before the modern world nor before project Israel was launched. It was in fact within the political forces of Colonial Iraq when Iraq was mandated by Europeans.

I didn't say 1941 was before the "modern world." And Iraq became an independent country in 1932. Arab nationalists allied with the Nazis and adopted parts of their racial program. Surely, part of the increase in anti-Semitism in Iraq during the 30s had to do with the creation of Israel. But Iraqi Jews weren't really very tied to the Zionist project at the time; they may have been sympathetic to it, but not many of them participated in it. The final exodus of Iraqi Jews definitely had to do with a very suspect bombing campaign, but Skinster is wrong in implying that the sole reason Jews left Iraq was "Zionist terror."

I'm not trying to argue that the Jews and Muslims have not peacefully coexisted. They have, and I hope the current tension between many of the world's Muslims and many of the world's Jews will end sooner rather than later. My point is just that there's been contention between Jews and Muslims for a long time, as far back as the beginning of Islam.

[noemon]

I'm not trying to argue that the Jews and Muslims have not peacefully coexisted. They have, and I hope the current tension between many of the world's Muslims and many of the world's Jews will end sooner rather than later. My point is just that there's been contention between Jews and Muslims for a long time, as far back as the beginning of Islam.

Your point is tautological as friction between communities can be located even internally within any community let alone between foreign communities. The fact is friction between Jews and Muslims does not compare with the friction between Christians & Jews or Christians & Muslims and certainly does not even come near to the historical friction between French & Germans.

[Lightman]

Did I say that Muslim-Jewish relations are the same as Jewish-Christian relations, Noemon? Did I imply it?

You said: "Jewish experience in the Muslim world is completely devoid of pogroms, expulsions and massacres." This is not true. That's all. I don't feel the need to belabor the point.