[wat0n]

On the contrary, the fact that European Jews even tried to assimilate before the Holocaust contradicts your comparison quite completely, compared with the attacks against Jewish communities in the Islamic World prior to the First Aliyah.

Your only "argument" was to keep pretending that Jews in the Ottoman Empire did not live in their own neighborhoods and that it was somehow inevitable that they were attacked - with no reason of why you'd pretend this when it is quite well known that cities like Jerusalem had Jewish Quarters.

[noemon]

You claimed:

Hatred of the Jewish community in the region in the Arab world began long before Israel's founding, so it's quite hard to claim Israeli policies are responsible for it.

You have yet to bring evidence that Palestinian Sunnis committed attacks caused by antisemitism in Safed and Tiberias as you claimed, the events you brought forward do not make your point as your own Jewish sources say that these cities were mixed, that the entire cities went up in flames, that these were Muslim wars, that the Jews were caught in the middle, and that the perpetrators were Druzes, not Palestinian Muslims, if you have any other evidence bring them forward so we can take a look at them. Thank you.

You can keep pretending and I will keep serving you the facts, regardless.

[wat0n]

You can keep pretending that they were physically caught in the middle of hostilities as much as you want, unfortunately for you the fact that there were Jewish Quarters is indisputable (indeed they are even archaeological sites in some cases) and as such attacking them was not coincidental but intentional.

[noemon]

You can keep pretending that they were not caught in the middle despite the Jewish sources which explicitly say so as well as keep pretending that the rebels were Palestinians despite the fact that the Palestinians came to the Jews aid during the Druze rebellion against the Ottomans:

For example, during the Safed insurrection in 1838, in which Druze rebels rose against Turkish rule, and - in the course of the uprising - attacked Jews of Safed and even extorted money from them, it was another Palestinian Arab who came to their rescue.

[wat0n]

Sure, no one has said that Palestinian Sunnis were, or are, a monolithic group noemon.

But it is true that there were Palestinian Sunnis who attacked Jews, like in the case of Safed in a revolt 4 years before the one you mention where the Jewish community was attacked jointly by Palestinian Muslims and Druzes.

[noemon]

Barnay's quote above is about 1834 not 1838 and he clearly states:

Druze, Maronites and Metoualis none of which correspond to Palestinian Sunnis, he also clearly states that Jews were merely caught in the middle of the Druze insurrection again the Ottomans which saw several Muslim Sunni villages and properties plundered.

If you have any evidence that Palestinian Sunnis committed atrocities due to to antisemitism, you can bring them forward and quote it verbatim.

[wat0n]

Oh so you will not read the source. Okay:

The 1834 looting of Safed (Hebrew: ביזת צפת בשנת תקצ"ד, "Plunder of Safed, 5594 AM") was prolonged attack against the Jewish community of Safed, Palestine, during the 1834 Peasants' Revolt. It began on Sunday June 15 (7 Sivan), the day after the Jewish holiday of Shavuot, and lasted for the next 33 days.[1][2] Most contemporary accounts suggest it was a spontaneous attack which took advantage of a defenceless population in the midst of the armed uprising against Egyptian rule.[3][4] The district governor tried to quell the violent outbreak, but failed to do so and fled.[5] The event took place during a power vacuum, whilst Ibrahim Pasha of Egypt was fighting to quell the wider revolt in Jerusalem.[6]

Accounts of the month-long event tell of large scale looting,[7] as well as killing and raping of Jews and the destruction of homes and synagogues by local Druze and Muslim Arabs. Many Torah scrolls were desecrated[3] and many Jews were left severely wounded.[8][9] The event has been described as a pogrom or "pogrom-like" by some authors.[10][11] Hundreds fled the town seeking refuge in the open countryside or in neighbouring villages. The rioting was quelled by Lebanese Druze troops under the orders of Ibrahim Pasha following the intervention of foreign consuls. The instigators were arrested and later executed in Acre.

[noemon]

I take it you mean this:

local Druze and Muslim Arabs.

First of all "local Muslim Arabs" contains no citation which means that it is general zionist edits and have now been removed. Second of all, Barnay:

Druze, Maronites and Metoualis

None of which correspond to Palestinian Sunnis, he also clearly states that Jews were merely caught in the middle of the Druze insurrection against the Ottomans which saw several Muslim Sunni villages and properties plundered.

And more from your source:

However, the attacks on the Jews of Safed and Jerusalem in 1834, though part of the general uprising, were only minor episodes in a campaign whose wrath was directed primarily against the Egyptian conquest

[wat0n]

Let's continue with what's in the article:

The account of Neophytos, a monk of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre described the looting of the town, alongside similar events in Ramla, Lydda, Jaffa, Acre and Tiberias, noting that the perpetrators "robbed the Jews, who lived in these towns, of immense property, as is reported, for there was no one to offer any opposition".[24]
The 1850 account of Rabbi Joseph Schwartz stated that "Everything was carried off which could possibly be removed, even articles of no value; boxes, chests, packages, without even opening them, were dragged away; and the fury with which this crowd attacked their defenceless victims was boundless... [The perpetrators] were perfectly safe and unmolested; for they had learned that Abraim Pacha was, at the moment, so much occupied at Jerusalem and vicinity with his enemies there, that he could not go into Galilee."[6]

One account suggests the rioting was premeditated, organised by a local anti-Semitic Muslim cleric,[23] According to Kinglake, when June 15 arrived, Muhammad Damoor appeared to the gathered Muslim crowd and incited them to fulfill his prophesy. Kinglake only mentions the occurrence of looting, writing that "the most odious of all outrages, that of searching the women for the base purpose of discovering such things as gold and silver concealed about their persons, was perpetrated without shame."[23] Kinglake's is the only account which mentions the individual involvement of a local Muslim clergyman.

Other reports suggest the attack was more violent in nature. Isaac Farhi (d. 1853) described how several Jews were killed and raped in the attack. Men, women and children were robbed of their clothes and then beaten. Some fled into the surrounding fields and remained there naked "like wild animals" until the danger passed.[25] 12 year-old Jacob Saphir was among a number of refugees who found sanctuary in the adjacent village of Ein al-Zeitun assisted by a sympathetic Arab sheikh.[5] He describes how for the first three days they had nothing to eat and how they hid in fear of their lives for forty days. Afterwards they had found their homes completely ransacked and emptied, "not even small jugs, doors or windows had been left behind."[26] Menachem Mendel Baum, a prominent member of the Ashkenazi community, published a book (Korot Ha-Eytim, 1839) vividly detailing his recollections. He describes an aggressive onslaught, including one incident in which a group of elderly Jews including pious rabbis were beaten mercilessly while hiding in a synagogue.[27] In May 1934, an article appearing in Haaretz by historian and journalist Eliezer Rivlin (1889-1942) described the event of 100 years earlier in detail. His article, based on similar first hand accounts, tells of how the head of the community, Rabbi Israel of Shklov, was threatened with his life and another rabbi who had fled to the hills seeking refuge in a cave was set upon and had his eye gouged out. Rivlin states many Jews were beaten to death and severely wounded. Thirteen synagogues along with an estimated 500 Torah scrolls were destroyed.[28] Valuable antique books belonging to the 14th-century rabbi Isaac Aboab I were also lost. Jewish homes were ransacked and set on fire as looters searched for hidden gold and silver.[29]

Some Jews managed to escape to a nearby fortress and held out there for a few weeks. The mob unsuccessfully tried to break into the building to reach the fugitives.[5] The sources do not indicate how many Jews died.[30] It seems to have not been many, though hundreds were wounded.[30][31]

The sole Hebrew printing press in Palestine was destroyed along with many copies of the Bible. It was three years before the press started functioning again.[32] Israel Bak, who established the printing house in Safed, incurred a wound on his foot which left him with an enduring limp.[33] Among the distinguished men who gave their lives helping others were Rabbis Leib Cohen, Shalom Hayat and Mendel of Kamnitz, who wandered around the streets without fear of the attackers, to return little children to their mothers, rescuing the victims physically and emotionally, and burying the dead.[29][34]

[noemon]

Let's continue with what's in the article:

Sure, let's continue with the article:

Rabbi Joseph Schwartz noted the justice that once calm had been restored, Ibrahim Pasha's army arrested and executed a number of perpetrators, and enforced summary justice on many suspects to ensure stolen goods were returned:

"The most respectable Mahomedans of Zafed and its environs were arrested as the authors of the outrage, and some of them were afterwards publicly executed, and whatever could be found of the stolen property of the Jews was restored. Every Jew was believed, when saying that he recognised this or that Arab among the robbers. The person so accused was instantly arrested, and punished with blows till he at last confessed and gave up his booty. Even many of the richest and most respectable of the Arabs were arrested, loaded with chains, and punished, upon the mere assertion of a very poor and common Jew. The word of a Jew was regarded as equal to the command of the highest authority, and severe punishment was at once resorted to, without any previous investigation, without any grounds or proofs. In this manner much of the stolen property was discovered; since many, in order not to be exposed to the violence of the Druses, delivered up everything of their own accord. The Jews were now required, by order of the Pacha, through the intervention of the consuls, to make out a correct list of all they had lost, of whatever they missed, and to indicate the true value of the same, and to hand it in to Abraim Pacha through means of the European consuls." [6]

Let us pretend that the Palestinian Sunnis hate the Jews by bringing forward what the Druze did according to the Rabbi there. And when the Palestinian Sunnis are said to have helped the Jews:

For example, during the Safed insurrection in 1838, in which Druze rebels rose against Turkish rule, and - in the course of the uprising - attacked Jews of Safed and even extorted money from them, it was another Palestinian Arab who came to their rescue.

Then let us pretend that:

Sure, no one has said that Palestinian Sunnis were, or are, a monolithic group noemon.

[wat0n]

Sure, let's continue with the article:

Indeed, as I've said authorities would not generally treat the Jews in that way (i.e. physical aggression). That's not inconsistent with the fact that their subjects would, from time to time.

Let us pretend that the Palestinian Sunnis hate the Jews by bringing forward what the Druze did according to the Rabbi there. And when the Palestinian Sunnis are said to have helped the Jews:

He also mentions that Muslims got punished for attacking Jews and taking their belongings. Why ignore this, I wonder?

For example, during the Safed insurrection in 1838, in which Druze rebels rose against Turkish rule, and - in the course of the uprising - attacked Jews of Safed and even extorted money from them, it was another Palestinian Arab who came to their rescue.

Then let us pretend that:

And as I said, too, there were (and still are) Muslims who did not attack Jews. That, too, doesn't mean that no Muslims ever attacked Jews for antisemitism before the First Aliyah.

You seem to be trying to present me as having said that all Arabs or Muslims held or still hold animosity towards Israel or the Jews, but I did not say that and you should not infer that from my words which both you and Qatz quoted. What I did say is that there were Muslim Palestinians (and others in the Islamic world too) who had such animosity against the Jewish community of the time even before the founding of Israel and even before the First Aliyah, and that it did translate into attacks against them at the time.

[noemon]

You said that Palestinian Sunnis hate the Jews and you brought forward an attack by the Druze(who are also Muslims) and which is confirmed by the Rabbi of the area for which event Jewish historians say that it was a minor incident when compared to the general uprising of the Druze against the Ottoman Sunni's and their Muslim collaborators and according to you this proves that the Palestinians hate the Jews because of that and hardly because of Israeli policy.



You have retracted your statement and retracted the retraction around 5 times already. I am curious to see how many more times will you retract and then retract the retraction.

[wat0n]

No noemon, the issue is that you can't understand nuance and that I realize that there are different positions among Palestinians, which is something I have states several times over. Your position is as stupid as saying that there is zero Islamophobia in the West because Islamophobes are largely ostracized in Western countries - as if there would be a need to ostracize Islamophobes if there were none.

Also, I can tell you are denying each and every other reference in the article stating that Muslims and Druze together attacked the Jewish community of Safed, and even ignore that the Rabbi you are quoting states clearly that local Muslims faced punishment for taking part in the attack.

That's a pretty selective, distorted reading of what I've said and also of the third party sources.

[noemon]

No dear, the attackers have been explicitly identified by the historians as Druze, Maronites and Metoualis. None of which are Palestinian Sunnis.

It is only yourself and a zionist editor in wiki who prefer to use the general "Muslims" instead so that they include all the Muslims in the area, and neither yourself nor the zionist editor in wiki have ever produced a single source that includes the Palestinian Sunnis.

This has been pointed out to you numerous times and it is not only selective reading but these weasel words are intentional and they are meant to supposedly confirm the ridiculous statement you made("Palestinian hatred sources from that and hardly from Israeli policy") which you have indeed retracted but nevertheless happy to defend at the same time.

Not only that but at the time period the Druze rose up, they rose up against the Sunnis and they punished mainly the Palestinian Sunni officials and Palestinian Sunni residents which they associated with the Ottoman Sunni regime and before you start your crap pretending that the Ottomans=Turks alone, note that Ibrahim Pasha was Albanian and that in the Ottoman Empire, only religion mattered. That also explains why certain Palestinians were keen to help the Jews because they felt that they have been going through the same ordeal as they went through by the Druze.

Your intentional distortion of history just so you whine like a victim is quite shameless. Palestinian Sunnis get plundered by the Druze, they get murdered, pillaged and beaten, the same fate falls upon some Jews by the Druze and 2 centuries later, a Jew from Chile blames the Palestinian co-victims who suffered as much or even worse and blames them as the perpetrators because it suits the politics of the state of Israel.
Get a grip(this is destroying your soul and for nothing) please because you have already said enough and against some people who are going through today a lot worse than what the Jews went through 2 centuries ago as they have nowhere to find justice unlike the Jews who were given carte-blanche to blame(and seize his property) anyone they felt like by the Palestinian Sunni authorities when they restored order.

What does that make the Israelis?

[wat0n]

No dear, the attackers have been explicitly identified by the historians as Druze, Maronites and Metoualis. None of which are Palestinian Sunnis.

It is only yourself and a zionist editor in wiki who prefer to use the general "Muslims" instead so that they include all the Muslims in the area, and neither yourself nor the zionist editor in wiki have ever produced a single source that includes the Palestinian Sunnis.

And now you are denying the references in the article too, which include historians as well.

Please, continue denying what's objectively in the source as well.

This has been pointed out to you numerous times and it is not only selective reading but these weasel words are intentional and they are meant to supposedly confirm the ridiculous statement you made("Palestinian hatred sources from that and hardly from Israeli policy") which you have indeed retracted but nevertheless happy to defend at the same time.

Not only that but at the time period the Druze rose up, they rose up against the Sunnis and they punished mainly the Palestinian Sunni officials and Palestinian Sunni residents which they associated with the Ottoman Sunni regime and before you start your crap pretending that the Ottomans=Turks alone, note that Ibrahim Pasha was Albanian and that in the Ottoman Empire, only religion mattered. That also explains why certain Palestinians were keen to help the Jews because they felt that they have been going through the same ordeal as they went through by the Druze.

Your intentional distortion of history just so your whine like a victim is quite shameless. Palestinian Sunnis get plundered by the Druze, they get murdered, pillaged and beaten, the same fate falls upon some Jews by the Druze and 2 centuries later, a Jew from Chile blames the Palestinian co-victims who suffered as much or even worse and blames them as the perpetrators because it suits the politics of the state of Israel.
Get a grip(this is destroying your soul and for nothing) please because you have already said enough and against some people who are going through today a lot worse than what the Jews went through 2 centuries ago as they have nowhere to find justice unlike the Jews who were given carte-blanche to blame(and seize his property) anyone they felt like by the Palestinian Sunni authorities when they restored order.

What does that make the Israelis?

No noemon, let's remember that:

1) You are the one denying what third party sources are saying, including the references in them.

2) You are the one who insists on putting words in my mouth even though I have made what I said as clear as possible precisely because I know from experience in this and other threads you have done that (including somehow interpreting the complete opposite of what I said and claiming I said that).

3) You are, too, the one who's selectively read from the sources, even from what the Rabbi wrote but also from the rest of the article. And this is most definitely true of other sources as the discussion on the difference between the Israeli-Palestinian and Cypriot cases can attest.

This is something you've engaged on in other threads and which has been called out by other posters as well, including some who aren't even particularly pro-Israel, so this is not an isolated case.

Given all of this, I am most certainly not impressed by how you take criticism of your reasoning as an attack on your honor, your ridiculous attempts to moralize when you lack the self-criticism required to even acknowledge your understanding of both other users' arguments (including mine) and sources may be unsound even after there is clear motive to do so, and other similar nonsense on your part.

[wat0n]

Delete.

[noemon]

There is absolute no argument in your entire post that changes the historical record and there is not a single citation you have brought that includes Palestinian Sunni Muslims in the events in Safed. None whatsoever.

You are pretending that historians have mentioned Palestinian Muslims as the perpetrators in Safed, but you have quoted none.

You cite the Rabbi who says that the Jews were given carte blanche to point their fingers towards anyone they wanted and that allegedly proves that Palestinian Muslims were involved. The only thing that proves is that Palestinian Sunnis who were the Governors of Palestine at the time gave the Jews carte-blanche to achieve their own justice and I ask you where is justice for Palestinians today, who have lost everything, their homes, their crops, their livelihoods? And what does that make Israelis? If the aforementioned arbitrary events caused by the Druze which resulted to the depopulation of several Palestinian villages and even that allegedly makes the Palestinians "haters"?

As for what you said it is clear for all to see and I do not need to put any word in your mouth:

Hatred of the Jewish community in the region in the Arab world began long before Israel's founding, so it's quite hard to claim Israeli policies are responsible for it.

I note your silence and eagerly await the next comedy relief from the call-centre manual.

[wat0n]

Note my silence, when I've answered your nonsense thoroughly?

The funny thing is, you claim that no historian is sourced in the article, yet the very paragraph I posted mentions the account a historian wrote at the 100th anniversary of the attack for Ha'aretz

[noemon]

If you have something to bring forward that says that Palestinian Sunnis hate the Jews during the event in Safed you can can quote it instead of pretending.

Your pretensions are hilarious and you still refuse to answer to the obvious:

You cite the Rabbi who says that the Jews were given by the Palestinian Sunnis carte blanche to point their fingers towards anyone they wanted and that allegedly proves that Palestinian Sunnis were involved. The only thing that proves is that Palestinian Sunnis who were the Governors of Palestine at the time gave the Jews carte-blanche to achieve their own justice and I ask you where is justice for Palestinians today, who have lost everything, their homes, their crops, their livelihoods? And what does that make Israelis? If the aforementioned arbitrary events caused by the Druze which resulted to the depopulation of several Palestinian villages and even that allegedly makes the Palestinians "haters"?

You can't shave an egg, wat0n.

And even worse you cannot whine and cry for being unable to.

[wat0n]

If you have something to bring forward that says that Palestinian Sunnis hate the Jews during the event in Safed you can can quote it instead of pretending.

I also did, there is an account that a radical imam incited the attack.

Your pretensions are hilarious and you still refuse to answer to the obvious:

You cite the Rabbi who says that the Jews were given carte blanche to point their fingers towards anyone they wanted and that allegedly proves that Palestinian Muslims were involved. The only thing that proves is that Palestinian Sunnis who were the Governors of Palestine at the time gave the Jews carte-blanche to achieve their own justice and I ask you where is justice for Palestinians today, who have lost everything, their homes, their crops, their livelihoods? And what does that make Israelis? If the aforementioned arbitrary events caused by the Druze which resulted to the depopulation of several Palestinian villages and even that allegedly makes the Palestinians "haters"?

And you are still pretending I said all Sunni Muslims harboured hatred for the Jews, as I said, you are still selectively reading on what I've said. You are free to stop your straw man so we can have an actual discussion.

Also, Safed's govenor was among the people who were punished by Ibrahim Pasha's men

At last, as for the Palestinians: I'm sure they'll be able to get justice as part of a durable peace agreement that also brings justice to Israelis if the moderates can rein the extremists in so there can actually be a peace process that can end in an effective and just peace, just like Egypt and Jordan signed satisfactory and durable peace agreements with Israel.