[Heinie]

I googled this name Treblinka and what I found was mind-fuck stuff. Don't do this please.

Zionist Nationalist did not want the murder of the disabled Palestinian being executed by the IDF medic videoed and published because it makes the Israelis look bad to the rest of the world except the USA. He wrote, "some things better stay in secret".
This is how the Nazis thought also and why I mentioned Treblinka in a response.
"The complex, 65 miles northeast of Warsaw, consisted of Treblinka I, primarily a forced labor camp, and Treblinka II, the site of the killing machine, closed in 1943 after 24 months of operation.
During that timespan, its 10 gas chambers asphyxiated 900,000 men, women, and children. The grisly work done, the Nazis went to extraordinary lengths to erase every trace of the camp’s existence."
http://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/Jewish-News/Archeologist-at-Treblinka-Nazi-death-camp-finds-evidence-of-gas-chambers-346947
Since you had to google Treblinka, I am not surprised that my fitting reference was not understood by you.

[noemon]

Thank you for clarifying. If I did not get it, just imagine what other people do not get, just food for thought and future reference.

[wat0n]

The National Socialists played a decicive role in the creation of Israel, there was a cooperation between the Zionists and the National Socialists.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_Agreement





But if somebody believes that Israel is subverted by "Them Nazis" and that the EU has any influence on Israel, then he lives in a parallel world.

This nonsense again. If such cooperation was so big, why did the biggest Zionist militias serve in WWII to fight against the Nazis?

[Pongo]

^ far worse, these people bought almost the whole Israeli opposition, its NGOs and press and now manipulating the Palestinians to kill Jews.

[pugsville]

You know they never did find any gas chambers at Treblinka.

i find this massive offensive. the Nazis killed millions of jews. this smacks of denial of this fact. i'm anti-zionist but this is just wrong.

i don't see the relevance to any of the arguments here.

what thing that pisses me off is the ascribing all good things to one group and all bad things to another group. almost everyone is a mixture of good and bad. there is lot of justice in the Palestinian cause, but some Palestinians have acted really really badly , I have problems with the founding of Israel (but it's broadly similar to other colonial nations and 'Israel is no less legitimate for all that, just as i have problem with the colonisation of my country Australia, in both cases a negated settlement with the native population is my solution and i recognises that in Israel's case the settlement is much harder than other colonial nations as for various reasons the colonisers and the natives were more evenly matched, other nations based of colonisation can be generous is a settlement with their native people and not lose much, Israel not so much) and some Israelis have acted badly, that does make Israelis bad people. the occupation is wrong and should be ended as soon as possible (and i do recognise serious security concerns the Israelis have, but i also recognise the Palestinian's have the right to same concerns)

[Pongo]

What Lenni Brenner (a Trotskyite Jew) calls cooperation with the Nazis (he refer mainly to Haavara/transfer agreement) was very important deal that saved hundred of thousands of German Jewry. The real cooperation was in the Ghettos and death camps where the German manipulated the Jews to kill them speedily. Far worse is the cooperation today. These Germans are as antisemites and evil intended as their grandfathers yet they got enough Jewish collaborators.

* Haaretz lost almost its entire local subscribers after the Nazi family bought the paper and Israelis realise its covet war against Israel, and now is relied mainly on outside readership, such BDS activists and all sort of antisemites and anti zionists.

[Heinie]

i find this massive offensive. the Nazis killed millions of jews. this smacks of denial of this fact. i'm anti-zionist but this is just wrong.

Learn the difference between keeping facts secret and exposing the truth despite tampered or suppressed evidence.

i don't see the relevance to any of the arguments here. ...

Four posts back provides clear relevance as it pertains to Zionist Nationalist's belief that covering-up the truth is best.

[Pongo]

Gideon Levi in Nazi own Haaretz

[Heinie]

Gideon Levi in Nazi own Haaretz

That quote of Gideon Levi shows the real face of the sick Israeli society. Thanks for posting, Pongo.

[Pongo]

This sort of Nazi propaganda is too obvious. It doesn't work on local readership.

[ArtAllm]

This nonsense again. If such cooperation was so big, why did the biggest Zionist militias serve in WWII to fight against the Nazis?

Zionists collaborated with both sides.

Some of Zionists were ready to erect a fascist state in Palestine and to fight against the Brits on the side of the Third Reich.

In mid-1940, Stern became convinced that the Italians were interested in the establishment of a fascist Jewish state in Palestine.[4] He conducted negotiations, he thought, with the Italians via an intermediary Moshe Rotstein, and drew up a document that became known as the "Jerusalem Agreement".[4][42]

...

Late in 1940, Lehi, having identified a common interest between the intentions of the new German order and Jewish national aspirations, proposed forming an alliance in World War II with Nazi Germany.[2] It offered assistance in transferring the Jews of Europe to Palestine, in return for Germany's help in expelling Britain from Mandatory Palestine.[citation needed] Late in 1940, Lehi representative Naftali Lubenchik went to Beirut to meet German official Werner Otto von Hentig (who also was involved with the Haavara or Transfer Agreement, which had been transferring German Jews and their funds to Palestine since 1933).[citation needed] Lubenchik told von Hentig that Lehi had not yet revealed its full power and that they were capable of organizing a whole range of anti-British operations.[citation needed]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(group)

Is this a big deal?

Of course?

Some members of these Zionist groups became "kosher" main stream Israeli politicians and political leaders of Israel!
These terrorists were never punished or condemned.

In fact, they were not only fully integrated into the mainstream, they were even awarded, there terrorist activity was called " military service towards the establishment of the State of Israel" by the official representatives of Israel.

The conflict between Lehi and mainstream Jewish and subsequently Israeli organiztions came to an end when Lehi was formally dissolved and integrated into the Israeli Defense Forces on 31 May 1948, its leaders getting amnesty from prosecution or reprisals as part of the integration.
...
In 1980, Israel instituted the Lehi ribbon, red, black, grey, pale blue and white, which is awarded to former members of the Lehi underground who wished to carry it, "for military service towards the establishment of the State of Israel".

...
A number of Lehi's members went on to play important roles in Israel's public life.

Geula Cohen, announcer of the Lehi underground radio station (1948)
Israel Eldad, leader in the Israeli national camp
Boaz Evron, left-wing journalist
Maxim Ghilan, Israeli journalist, author and peace activist
Uri Zvi Greenberg
Amos Kenan, writer
Baruch Korff
Yitzhak Shamir, Israeli prime minister 1983–1984 and 1986–1992.
Shimon Tzabar
Natan Yellin-Mor, member of the Knesset 1949–1951, leftist advocate of peace with Arabs.[85]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(group)

What Lenni Brenner (a Trotskyite Jew) calls cooperation with the Nazis (he refer mainly to Haavara/transfer agreement) was very important deal that saved hundred of thousands of German Jewry. The real cooperation was in the Ghettos and death camps where the German manipulated the Jews to kill them speedily. Far worse is the cooperation today. These Germans are as antisemites and evil intended as their grandfathers yet they got enough Jewish collaborators.

* Haaretz lost almost its entire local subscribers after the Nazi family bought the paper and Israelis realise its covet war against Israel, and now is relied mainly on outside readership, such BDS activists and all sort of antisemites and anti zionists.

Well, you are extensively using the terms "Nazis" and "Anti-Semites", making these terms even more meaningless than they already are.

It seems that you yourself hate not only Germans, but also some Jews, like the Haaretz-guys or Lenni Brenner, but you do not call yourself a "Jew-Hater" or an "Anti-Semite", do you?

[wat0n]

Zionists collaborated with both sides.

Some of Zionists were ready to erect a fascist state in Palestine and to fight against the Brits on the side of the Third Reich.

Yes, "some" yet Lehi in particular got heavily criticized for doing so and were labeled as traitors at the time.

Is this a big deal?

Of course?

Some members of these Zionist groups became "kosher" main stream Israeli politicians and political leaders of Israel!
These terrorists were never punished or condemned.

In fact, they were not only fully integrated into the mainstream, they were even awarded, there terrorist activity was called " military service towards the establishment of the State of Israel" by the official representatives of Israel.

Indeed, shameful but that doesn't mean that the mainstream was in favor of cooperating with the Nazis, particularly at the time. It wasn't.

[ArtAllm]

Indeed, shameful but that doesn't mean that the mainstream was in favor of cooperating with the Nazis, particularly at the time. It wasn't.

Well, it is important that the elite was ready to collaborate [cooperate is another euphemism] with the National Socialists, and they collaborated where they could!

The National Socialists wanted the Jews out of Germany, they did not care about the destination, Madagascar was one of the possible destinations.

The Zionists wanted German Jews (the rich, young and healthy Jews and their money) transferred to Palestine. They did not accept any other destinations.

Do not forget that the Jewish "Ordnungspolizei" [Jewish police] and the "Judenäte" [Jewish councils] in Germany and on the occupied territory were also formed from the members of the local Jewish elites:

Judenräte were responsible for the internal administration of ghettos, standing between the Nazi occupiers and their Jewish communities. In general, the Judenräte represented the elite from their Jewish communities. Often, a Judenrat had a group for internal security and control, a Jewish Ordnungspolizei. They also attempted to manage the government services normally found in a city such as those named above. However, the requirements of the Nazis to deliver community members to forced labor, deportation or Nazi concentration camps placed them in the position of helping the occupiers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judenrat

Today Zionists accuse rank and file Germans for not resisting the deportation of Jews, though the rank and file Germans were not informed about the details of these activities.

The Jewish elite in Germany was good informed about all details, but they were never accused of not resisting the deportation of Jews.

[wat0n]

So you are comparing the organs set up by the Nazis during their occupation of other European countries with the behavior of the elites in a democratic society or people who weren't left with second-class status in the Nazi regime?

Anyway, actually I do recall that the issue of Jewish collaborators was quite prominent in the '50s in Israel. So it's not like there wasn't a similar debate on this issue there and in other Jewish communities as well...

[pugsville]

heavily criticised at the time by some, strongly supported by others, as they are now, just the number of Israelis strongly supporting the actions of Lehi or the Irgun have increased not decreased. (though that can be said to be similar to growing Palestinian support for their own extremist groups Hamas etc)

Israel honoured meters of the Lehi group with the lehi ribbon in 1980. it's not a stretch at all to say likud is the direct political descendants of Lehi and dominates Israeli governments and policies.

[wat0n]

heavily criticised at the time by some, strongly supported by others, as they are now, just the number of Israelis strongly supporting the actions of Lehi or the Irgun have increased not decreased. (though that can be said to be similar to growing Palestinian support for their own extremist groups Hamas etc)

I think the best indicator is to simply look at the size of each Zionist militia.

Haganah: ~21,000 on average.
Irgun: ~3,500-4,000 at its peak (before its first split, half would go to the Haganah).
Lehi: <1,000

Israel honoured meters of the Lehi group with the lehi ribbon in 1980. it's not a stretch at all to say likud is the direct political descendants of Lehi and dominates Israeli governments and policies.

The Likud is the direct political descendant of the Herut party, which was itself the direct descendant of the Irgun. As I assume you know, Stern's willingness to cooperate with the Nazis was one of the major reasons of why he and others split from Irgun and formed Lehi to begin with.

Lehi members did form political parties in the '50s, but had little electoral success.

[Tailz]

Fascinating reading indeed. The problem is EU-paid paper has different agenda in advancing this theme now.

I take it everything you don't like is paid for by the EU? What about settlements that get international funding? Are they evil too?

Haaretz is a left leanng news service written by Israelis, edited by Israelis, published by Israelis. Yet you still act as if it is a anti-Jewish mouth piece. Why? Because they publish a message that you don't like.

Ben Gurion was all about Jewish state, as Taliz noticed rightly, Haaretz on the the other hand doesn't believe in Zionism.

I'm pretty certain they care about Israel, it is where they live.

And its only mission is to advance EU foreign policy and weakening Israel position.

The Israeli government and settler movement is doing a fine job of destroying Israel's reputation all by themselves. Again we see that the issues don't bother you, just the bad press.

One more issue in this problem. If there would be death penalty against the Jews, only the outgroup had to be suffered.

The outgroup? By whom are you referring too?

One of the main reason Rabin was murdered in 1994 was his execution of Ben Gurion order to fire the Irgun ship of Altalena.

So according to your point of view, Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated because he followed Ben Gurion's order to fire on the Irgun ship (Altalena)?

I think you will find that Yigal Amir (an Israeli ultranationalist) assassinated Yitzhak Rabin because Rabin signed the Oslo Accords.

So you can see that the outgroup which its blood seemed cheap by the establishment harbored hatred that lasted for for few generation until they killed Rabin.

Conspiracy! Let me guess, Yitzhak Rabin was an EU paid stooge who was attempting to erode Jewish cohesion by signing the Oslo Accords?

Of course Taliz doesn't care about Jewish internal cohesion. The Arab rights are the only one that matters to him.

Not overly concerned about Jewish or Arab rights. The rights of free thinking people on the other hand (human rights as some would call it), I am concerned about. Which is why I am not so coy on the death penalty. Plus why I am so perplexed that such political figures who crafted the state of Israel would insist that such a drastic punishment be kept on the books in order to deter Jews from killing Arabs.

[ArtAllm]

I think the best indicator is to simply look at the size of each Zionist militia.

No, this is not the best indicator. Quantity and quality are different things.
The present political establishment of Israel (Likud) grew from this militia, and to a large degree inherited their ideology.

[wat0n]

But it is important if you want to gauge support, don't you think? I am not talking about their quality but simply how many were willing to fight for them.

[Rich]

Lets be clear there was no shame in collaborating with the Nazis. The suggestion is absurd. Should the Finns feel ashamed for allying with Hitler? All groups whether nations, religious identities or ideological like the communists selfishly put their groups interests before others. No one acted fairly, no one acted justly, in fact its impossible to say what fair and just was. Any judgement of what was just was a biased and arbitrary and normally self serving opinion. Of course German Jews were right to collaborate with the Nazis. You couldn't live in Germany without collaborating with them. Nor in the 1930s could you engage in international diplomacy without on some level collaborating with them. It is only a problem because of this endless, puerile inane demonisation of the Nazis. Only yesterday I caught some programme on Iplayer or UTube where some Jewish journo was harassing this guy because he was Frank's son. Its like give it an effing rest, the Nazis have been gone for seventy years.

I have to say that westerners should complain about Germans not resisting tyranny takes the biscuit. The Germans had tried to resist against the utterly wicked occupation of the Rhineland, against the theft, against the extortion. It was the allied aggressors in world war I and through the imposition of the Versailles treaty in the 1920s and early 1930s that broke the Germans resistance to tyranny. If France, Britain and the United States were unhappy about the Nazis they had no one to blame but themselves.