[Drlee]

You refuted nothing. Your anger and anti US blather is typical. Of course you can't even see it but this is why American Conservatives just ignore folks like you. To sell your political agenda you must look to ancient history. Of course the clearly anti-Semitic bullshit you want to sell is that there were not Jews in what is now Israel thousands of years ago. There were. How far do you have to go back before you can avoid some shithead calling you a newcomer.

North American conservatives reject that they are personally responsible for Native American oppression. (Though they continue to shovel billions of dollars in federal aid to the Native American nations.) They reject that today's German youth are responsible for Nazism and that today's Japanese is responsible for the obscene war crimes perpetrated by their forefathers.

Israel is seen as an underdog because people can read a map. They can see every government in the region calling for its destruction. That is not a theory. It is a fact.

Try to get it together. Take a deep breath. Read my post. You have not made a single argument that contradicts what I said. You may not agree that these conservatives are right. That was not the question. Was it? The question was what North American conservatives believe. When you can get control of your emotions and stop the knee-jerk reaction you might try to refute what I said. You won't though. Because what I said was the truth. The things I posted ARE what North American conservatives believe.

I also refuted your claim that Christians are better off under Israel than under the Muslims.

Get serious. I am not even going to justify this nonsense with an answer. Bibles are illegal in Saudi Arabia. Christians are being killed in mass by the Islamic State. You post one story about one priest having money problems and expect me to take that seriously? Christians are better off in Israel than in any other nation in the region, bar none.

I believe I told you that I do not agree that Turkey is an ally in the region. A growing number of people here are coming to that realization. Turkey is a mess stuck between two worlds. It is perhaps the perfect example of what I said: People with some similar objectives but in no way allies in the traditional sense.

Interesting to note that not a one of you has disputed my main points. I am waiting but I am loosing patience.

[noemon]

I don't think you are capable of any serious conversation and you are losing your head when people just prove you wrong.

a) Your claim that Muslims cannot be allies is false because Turkey is a NATO ally and Saudi Arabia is your US ally as well.
b) Your claim that Christians are better off under Israel than under the Muslims is clearly false because Israel is persecuting the Christian Church and interfering in its internal affairs to steal its property, it has frozen its bank accounts that maintain the Tomb of Jesus Christ and the Christian Schools in Jerusalem and forced the interference of Condelezza Rice to slap the Israelis back into place. Jews also consistently spit on Christians in Jerusalem and Christians have to barricade themselves in their houses in fear of Jewish racists. Saudi is not in Palestine.

Moreover, as Patriarch Theophilus explains, "our bank accounts are frozen" so that money due to the patriarchate "is impossible for us to receive in our own name".
Yesterday, the Jerusalem District Court deferred a hearing on an appeal by Theophilus's lawyers until tomorrow. These unholy wars arise because for two years after his election, the government of Israel – unlike those of Greece and Jordan, and the Palestinian Authority – has not recognised Theophilus as the Patriarch. Theophilus says that "the White House recognised us from the outset. I have received a very nice letter from President Bush signed by himself." Last month he declared that the government of Israel had "for the first time interfered in the inner functioning and administration of a spiritual institution and tried directly and indirectly to determine who is going to be the spiritual leader of the Church and the community".

Though he is, at times, coy about using the word, Theophilus's basic charge is that for two years attempts have been made to blackmail him into completing and approving the "unfulfilled" – and in political terms radioactively sensitive – deals made during the tenure of his predecessor. Last month, he detailed his complaints about his treatment by Israel – which he has described as a "humiliation and ridiculousness" – at a meeting with Condoleezza Rice, the US Secretary of State, during her last trip to Jerusalem.

In the wall of his wood-panelled first-floor office there is a copy of the historic document given to his 7th-century predecessor Sophronius by Omar Ibn al Khattab, the Second Caliph of Islam, after his bloodless conquest of Jerusalem in 637 and promising the protection of the holy places.

Rossing says there are certain common characeristics from the point of view of time and location to the incidents. He points to the fact that there are more incidents in areas where Jews and Christians mingle, such as the Jewish and Armenian quarters of the Old City and the Jaffa Gate.
There are an increased number at certain times of year, such as during the Purim holiday."I know Christians who lock themselves indoors during the entire Purim holiday," he says.

If this is your definition of the Christians being better off...then sure...you can ignore me and my quoting the facts all you like but you cannot change the facts to suit your fabricated imagination and if you had a shred of Christian dignity you would not stand by while such injustices against the Tomb of Jesus Himself are being committed with your Christian blessings and support.

[Drlee]

You claim that Muslims cannot be allies is false because Turkey is a NATO ally and Saudi Arabia is your US ally as well.

Nonsense. Saudi Arabia backed 9-11 and sponsors terrorism world wide. American conservatives know that and know that if they did what they did today we would depose the House of Saud in a heartbeat. And there would be not one fucking thing they could do about it. American conservatives have had quite enough of those despots.

Turkey is not an ally though at least temporarily a member of NATO. But you still don't get it. I am the only one who answered the question and none of you have refuted what I said one bit. Now try to settle down, take a deep breath and start by reading the question upon which this thread is based.

[noemon]

Saudi Arabia is your ally not mine and you mentioned it, not me. I have been critical against Saudi and suggested measures against her a lot more than you have in here.

I mentioned Turkey and Turkey is in NATO while Israel is not in NATO, so your claim that the USA cannot have Muslim allies is clearly false as is your claim that Christians have it better under Israel when Israel is actually persecuting them, interfering in their internal affairs and freezing the church's bank accounts refusing them their own money which maintain the Tomb of Jesus Christ and the Christian schools in the Holy Land, you as a professing Christian giving your blessing, support and turning a blind eye to this malice is ridiculous to say the least.

These claims of yours are clearly debunked and you would serve yourself better if you served the Christian community instead of supporting or denying its blatant persecution.

As I said before I do not really care why you support Israel in its occupation of Palestine and in its abuse of Palestinian human rights, that is your right to do within your conscience, I only care about your political claims which are clearly false.

[Drlee]

As I said before I do not really care why you support Israel in its occupation of Palestine and in its abuse of Palestinian human rights, that is your right to do within your conscience, I only care about your political claims which are clearly false.

God are you infuriating. You accuse me of all kinds of views that I never said I held. You somehow absurdly think that NATO membership makes everyone or ally. Then you go on to insult my religious beliefs because you are angry and just want to lash out like a child. Once you get control of your emotions, stop and read the thread again. In the meantime I suggest you chill until you are able to debate like an adult.

[noemon]

I am not angry at all and do not see how that which you quoted is an attack, you are lashing out because you were proven wrong and I am not accusing you, I am stating the obvious, you accused me of anti-US blather when I have not said anything bad about the US, I said that the US had to slap Israel in place because it is persecuting Christians in the Holy Land, since you completely ignore this persecution and blindly insist otherwise while you profess to be a Christian man, what kind of conclusion can I draw about you? That...what?

Being in NATO is being an official and integral ally, it is not an absurdity, it's a fact.

[skinster]

It is notable that Drlee keeps ignoring the persecution of Christians in Israel-Palestine by the people he considers underdogs.



Perhaps he hasn't got his script for that stuff yet.

[noemon]

These are just the acts of religious fanatics, the freezing of the Christian Church's bank accounts and the prevention of the Christians from maintaining the Tomb of Jesus Christ and maintaining the Christian schools are acts of the Israeli government.

[Drlee]

Oh I get it. Graffiti is just as bad as executing Christians and banning their religion altogether.

[anasawad]

Well. To be fair to the discussion.
Christians were actually in a way kicked out of Palestine by zionists.
They went up north to Lebanon and since Lebanon is semi-Christian country. They were given nationality and now they're Lebanese from Palestinian originis.

[skinster]

These are just the acts of religious fanatics, the freezing of the Christian Church's bank accounts and the prevention of the Christians from maintaining the Tomb of Jesus Christ and maintaining the Christian schools are acts of the Israeli government.

Drlee will ignore Israeli govt discrimination against Christians just as he will ignore the persecution of Christians by Israeli settlers. All of which is still happening today. I will note again how he keeps ignoring this stuff that is repeatedly brought up ITT.

[noemon]

Oh I get it. Graffiti is just as bad as executing Christians and banning their religion altogether.

These are just the acts of religious fanatics, the freezing of the Christian Church's bank accounts and the prevention of the Christians from maintaining the Tomb of Jesus Christ and maintaining the Christian schools are acts of the Israeli government and these acts are indeed worse than the protection afforded to the Christian Church in Palestine by the Muslims in Palestine.

Drlee will ignore Israeli govt discrimination against Christians just as he will ignore the persecution of Christians by Israeli settlers. All of which is still happening today. I will note again how he keeps ignoring this stuff that is repeatedly brought up ITT.

I think he just needs his time to digest it as he is clearly ignorant of the history of the Christian Church in the Holy Land and of its current persecution under the illegal occupation of Israel and requires time to sink in, right now he is just feeling exposed, like the man coming out of the cave.

[skinster]

I think he just needs his time to digest it as he is clearly ignorant of the history of the Christian Church in the Holy Land and of its current persecution under the illegal occupation of Israel and requires time to sink in, right now he is just feeling exposed, like the man coming out of the cave.

I don't know, I showed him persecution of Christians from Israelis in the past and he ignored it then too as much as he does today.

Re: the OP
[youtube]mjMRgT5o-Ig[/youtube]

[Drlee]

The very notion that Christianity is persecuted in any significant way in Israel is preposterous. I utterly reject your premise.

But then both of you have somehow ignored what I said and have cast me personally as some sort of defender of Israel. There is plenty for us to be angry with Israel for.

But neither of your to can back away from your hatred of Israel enough to really read the question, my response...you know.... the subject of this thread. I find it comical to deal with Israel haters. [x] You folks may not be seeing it but the rest of us do.

[anasawad]

Well the answer to the OP is simple. Media.

[noemon]

The very notion that Christianity is persecuted in any significant way in Israel is preposterous. I utterly reject your premise.
But then both of you have somehow ignored what I said and have cast me personally as some sort of defender of Israel. There is plenty for us to be angry with Israel for. But neither of your to can back away from your hatred of Israel enough to really read the question, my response...you know.... the subject of this thread. I find it comical to deal with Israel haters. Anti-Semites are just as obvious as American racists. You folks may not be seeing it but the rest of us do.

Facts are not preposterous they just are. Your accusations though are quite preposterous and are contingent with your intellectual bankruptcy and blatant denial.

So now mentioning the fact that Christians are quite blatantly being persecuted in the Holy Land by an occupation regime, to a fellow Christian who claims otherwise, is "antisemitism"? Are you all there, mate? Since when should honest men turn their backs to their fellow christians when they are facing such malice just to protect the reputation of their persecutors and charge the messenger with racism?

Moreover, as Patriarch Theophilus explains, "our bank accounts are frozen" so that money due to the patriarchate "is impossible for us to receive in our own name".
Yesterday, the Jerusalem District Court deferred a hearing on an appeal by Theophilus's lawyers until tomorrow. These unholy wars arise because for two years after his election, the government of Israel – unlike those of Greece and Jordan, and the Palestinian Authority – has not recognised Theophilus as the Patriarch. Theophilus says that "the White House recognised us from the outset. I have received a very nice letter from President Bush signed by himself." Last month he declared that the government of Israel had "for the first time interfered in the inner functioning and administration of a spiritual institution and tried directly and indirectly to determine who is going to be the spiritual leader of the Church and the community".

Though he is, at times, coy about using the word, Theophilus's basic charge is that for two years attempts have been made to blackmail him into completing and approving the "unfulfilled" – and in political terms radioactively sensitive – deals made during the tenure of his predecessor. Last month, he detailed his complaints about his treatment by Israel – which he has described as a "humiliation and ridiculousness" – at a meeting with Condoleezza Rice, the US Secretary of State, during her last trip to Jerusalem.

In the wall of his wood-panelled first-floor office there is a copy of the historic document given to his 7th-century predecessor Sophronius by Omar Ibn al Khattab, the Second Caliph of Islam, after his bloodless conquest of Jerusalem in 637 and promising the protection of the holy places.

On Sunday, a fracas developed when a yeshiva student spat at the cross being carried by the Armenian Archbishop during a procession near the Holy Sepulchre in the Old City. The archbishop's 17th-century cross was broken during the brawl and he slapped the yeshiva student.
Both were questioned by police and the yeshiva student will be brought to trial. The Jerusalem District Court has meanwhile banned the student from approaching the Old City for 75 days.
But the Armenians are far from satisfied by the police action and say this sort of thing has been going on for years. Archbishop Nourhan Manougian says he expects the education minister to say something.
"When there is an attack against Jews anywhere in the world, the Israeli government is incensed, so why when our religion and pride are hurt, don't they take harsher measures?" he asks.
According to Daniel Rossing, former adviser to the Religious Affairs Ministry on Christian affairs and director of a Jerusalem center for Christian-Jewish dialogue, there has been an increase in the number of such incidents recently, "as part of a general atmosphere of lack of tolerance in the country."

Rossing says there are certain common characeristics from the point of view of time and location to the incidents. He points to the fact that there are more incidents in areas where Jews and Christians mingle, such as the Jewish and Armenian quarters of the Old City and the Jaffa Gate.
There are an increased number at certain times of year, such as during the Purim holiday."I know Christians who lock themselves indoors during the entire Purim holiday," he says.

It is quite astonishing really. The saddest bit is that if a Christian country froze the bank accounts of the Jewish synagogues to coerce them and interfere in their internal affairs you would be more outraged than you are when Israel is doing that to the Custodians of the Tomb of Jesus in the Holy Land, when they are in fact occupying it illegally; the mere mention of the fact is causing you to have fits of rage and hurl insults at the messenger.

[Drlee]

On Sunday, a fracas developed when a yeshiva student spat at the cross being carried by the Armenian Archbishop during a procession near the Holy Sepulchre in the Old City. The archbishop's 17th-century cross was broken during the brawl and he slapped the yeshiva student.
Both were questioned by police and the yeshiva student will be brought to trial. The Jerusalem District Court has meanwhile banned the student from approaching the Old City for 75 days.

Really Neoman. I can read. So I fixed the part you accidentally forgot to bold.

[noemon]

Really Neoman. I can read. So I fixed the part you accidentally forgot to bold.

So now you are accusing people for not bolding things they have quoted, and there I thought that a Christian like you who makes the claim that Christians in the Holy Land are better off with Israel than the previous Muslim authorities who granted them extensive protection and rights would mind when Jews spit on a 17th century cross and then break it to pieces in the Holy Land inside occupied territory, or that you would mind when Christians barricade themselves in their houses in fear of Jewish racists or that you would notice the fact that this is not an isolated incident but standard practice:

According to Daniel Rossing, former adviser to the Religious Affairs Ministry on Christian affairs and director of a Jerusalem centre for Christian-Jewish dialogue, there has been an increase in the number of such incidents recently, "as part of a general atmosphere of lack of tolerance in the country."

It's typical nonsense coming from noemon, Drlee, just dishonestly selectively reading parts from the sources he quotes. He did the same with the article from The Independent, removing all the parts showing the internal conflicts within the Greek Orthodox Church and the threats issued by the Jordanian government against it as well.

Of course one is also to wonder what a Christian like Drlee and a zionist apologist makes of this:

It is quite astonishing really. The saddest bit is that if a Christian country froze the bank accounts of the Jewish synagogues to coerce them and interfere in their internal affairs you would be more outraged than you are when Israel is doing that to the Custodians of the Tomb of Jesus in the Holy Land, when they are in fact occupying it illegally;

Do you know what else I forgot to mention wat0n? That between 2002-2005 Israel had frozen the bank accounts of the Orthodox Church, threatening the Patriarch and certain assailants ramming his car because he refused to sell the Church land to Israeli settlers, that after he sold it, the Church deposed him and replaced him with another and then Israel froze the bank accounts of the Church again between 2005-2007, that in 2012 Israel froze the bank accounts of the Church yet again accusing her that she has not paid the water bill since 1967, that the water supply to the Church is a right granted to all religious institutions(including the Jewish ones) for free by the Muslim authorities and that Israel has officially declared as a condition for its recognition by the UN that it respects all privileges of the Religious authorities in Jerusalem as enshrined in existing Palestine law.

Accusing the victims for their persecution is also what the Nazis did to the Jews and one would expect more nuance when referring to Christian religious authorities in the Holy Land, and as for Jordan:

The Jordanian government earlier this year threatened its approval of Theophilus's appointment and demanded clarification of land deals in which the Church appeared to be still involved. But it dropped the threat after receiving written assurances from the Patriarch. Meanwhile Irinaeus is fighting a determined rearguard court action, arguing that he himself strongly resisted pressure to ratify them once they came to light despite at least one lawyer representing settlers threatening to put a "nuclear bomb" in the patriarchate unless he agreed.

Another thing you forgot to mention is that even if Jordan does not recognise a Patriarch, it's still not an issue for the Church, but when Israel freezes its bank accounts and prevents her from maintaining the Tomb of Jesus as well as its Christian schools, that is an actual issue.

[anasawad]

Well. Everyone outside can talk all they want.
but for us on the ground. We know that Israel is an aggressor state. We're at war with it and it will never end.
And we're if you are wondering.
We are the same Shias who welcomed Israel with rice and flowers.
The same Sunnis who delt with Jews and protected them.
The same Druze whowere best friends with the Jews of the region.
And the same Christians once allied with Israel.
and heck. You know athiests ?? Those with high ortuons in Lebanon and Syria . Also against Israel.

when all religious groups with all their differenves and divisions unite together to fight one entity. That should give you a clear sign what that entity is.

Ooh and BTW. Iranian Jews. Who are around 200-500 thousand in number in and outside of Iran are also anti-Israel. So literally even Jews are against Israel.

[wat0n]

Of course one is also to wonder what a Christian like Drlee and a zionist apologist makes of this:

It is quite astonishing really. The saddest bit is that if a Christian country froze the bank accounts of the Jewish synagogues to coerce them and interfere in their internal affairs you would be more outraged than you are when Israel is doing that to the Custodians of the Tomb of Jesus in the Holy Land, when they are in fact occupying it illegally;

You already know what I make of it: I would perfectly understand if their accounts were frozen because of a lawsuit raised by members of the community against its leadership alleging legal wrongdoing.

Do you know what else I forgot to mention wat0n? That between 2002-2005 Israel had frozen the bank accounts of the Orthodox Church, threatening the Patriarch and certain assailants ramming his car because he refused to sell the Church land to Israeli settlers, that after he sold it, the Church deposed him and replaced him with another and then Israel froze the bank accounts of the Church again between 2005-2007, that in 2012 Israel froze the bank accounts of the Church yet again accusing her that she has not paid the water bill since 1967, that the water supply to the Church is a right granted to all religious institutions(including the Jewish ones) for free by the Muslim authorities and that Israel has officially declared as a condition for its recognition by the UN that it respects all privileges of the Religious authorities in Jerusalem as enshrined in existing Palestine law.

Accusing the victims for their persecution is also what the Nazis did to the Jews and one would expect more nuance when referring to Christian religious authorities in the Holy Land,

What kind of "nuance" do you show when you pretend that we didn't discuss what happened in 2002-2005, that a PA report says that Iraneios' recognition was withheld because elements within the Church sued him alleging wrongdoing and would thus make recognition by the executive to be rather problematic as well, that the report also states that he was recognized as soon as the inquiry didn't show any wrongdoing, that the report also alleges that opposition to him arose because Patriarchs usually assigned higher budgets and the wealthier monasteries to their favorites and that it also alleges that the Church itself was in a financial mess that had been created by decades of mismanagement?

What kind of "nuance" do you show when you pretend that Theophilos III's recognition was withheld for a rather similar reason, as he was voted in the fallout of Iraneios' demise?

What kind of "nuance" do you show when the Israeli President himself intervened in favor of the Church before the private Israeli water company as to defuse the problem?

and as for Jordan:

Another thing you forgot to mention is that even if Jordan does not recognise a Patriarch, it's still not an issue for the Church, but when Israel freezes its bank accounts and prevents her from maintaining the Tomb of Jesus as well as its Christian schools, that is an actual issue.

So you actually do not care if Jordan threatened the Church, pretending that not being recognized by the Jordanian government would not freeze its assets in Jordanian territory, and pretending that the Church did not buckle under the pressure. Really nuanced attitude there!

Just don't expect I can pretend you show any actual nuance in your claims when it's quite obvious you are an anti-Israel fanatic, who can't show even a small shred of consistency in your claims. And don't expect me to believe you can show a shred of intellectual honesty when you cannot even read short texts without deliberately distorting their meaning to justify your bigotry as you've shown here and in almost every discussion we've had. At last, you should most certainly don't expect I will indulge on your nonsense after showing yet again this is the case.

You are free to fantasize as much as you want about European countries freezing the assets of Jewish communities in their respective states, it says more about you than me, really.