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#14673485
Third Term wrote:Zionism is also strong among evangelicals who believe Jews need to “return” to the Middle East to hasten the second coming of Jesus, which is the main reason why white conservatives are Zionists.


Indeed. This has a dark side too, that a lot of evangelicals would deny, but is rooted in history. Early Christians had a problem in that Jewish people that didn't believe in Christ were the chosen people. Sometimes this was solved by going in and sacking a Muslim city and killing any Jews found. Sometimes it was making laws to encourage conversion. For Martin Luther, it was a combination of brutal suppression and extermination. The final attempt, of course, was the Final Solution.

Modern evangelical Protestantism has a bit of this; the Jews all need to go to Israel to be in the same place so the anti-Christ can kill all the Jews and solve that problem so when Jesus comes back and fights Satan it will be a strictly Christian affair and that pesky problem of where Jews will fit into the narrative will be solved.

The nice interpretation is that evangelical white imperialists in the US and Canada want a homeland for Jews. The dark side is that it's essentially a concentration camp for them so they can all be killed at once.

Fortunately, of course, the belief in apololyptic nonsense is quite misplaced.
#14673495
wat0n wrote:You already know what I make of it: I would perfectly understand if their accounts were frozen because of a lawsuit raised by members of the community against its leadership alleging legal wrongdoing. What kind of "nuance" do you show when you pretend that we didn't discuss what happened in 2002-2005, that a PA report says that Iraneios' recognition was withheld because elements within the Church sued him alleging wrongdoing and would thus make recognition by the executive to be rather problematic as well


You would perfectly understand it if ministers of your host countries froze your Jewish bank accounts because they accuse you of talking with leaders(Arafat) with whom you talk as well? Accusing the victims of Israeli persecution for their own persecution now, and falsely claiming that Christians have pressed charges against their own Patriarchs...it is no wonder how low someone is willing to fall to justify the impossible.
Patriarch Ireneos was persecuted by Israel between 2002-2005, Patriarch Theophilos between 2005-2007 and again in 2012. Condoleezza Rice had to interfere against this blatant persecution, yet this zionist apologist blames the Church itself.

Haaretz wrote:The Greek Orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem sold properties inside the Jaffa Gate to a Jewish company to prove to Israel that he does not sympathize with Palestinians and the PLO, Nikos Papadimas, the former financial manager of the patriarchate, told Haaretz yesterday. Papadimas, who signed the deal in the name of the Patriarch Irineos I, has fled Israel to an unknown destination. Irineos has accused him of embezzling patriarchy funds.
The Israeli government refused to approve Irineos' election as Jerusalem's patriarch for two years as ministers accused him of hating Israel and being close to Yasser Arafat.
In January 2004, the government gave its approval for his appointment, as required by tradition. Irineos negotiated the sale of the properties to a Jewish buyer and signed the deal soon afterward, in what could be seen as a payoff for making his installation as patriarch possible.
The land's buyer is concealing his identity, apparently fearing international criticism of Israel for continuing to sponsor the acquisition of property in East Jerusalem.
The deal was signed by an offshore company registered in the Bahamas. Papadimas said the company deposited a $1.5 million advance into one of the patriarchy's accounts and that one of its representatives has started talks with the Djani family, which has been leasing the Imperial Hotel for 70 years, to evacuate it.
read more: http://www.haaretz.com/patriarch-allege ... l-1.157386


wat0n wrote:What kind of "nuance" do you show when the Israeli President himself intervened in favour of the Church before the private Israeli water company as to defuse the problem?


I don't blame the victims for their persecution like you are dear, and how does that prove that Christians are better off under Israel than they were under the Muslims, especially when Israel has signed that all privileges of the Holy Sites will be maintained as they were according to Muslim practice? The fact that it took international condemnation and the interference of foreigners to convince the Israeli President to settle the matter, just goes to show how brazen anti-Christian persecution in Israel is.

noemon wrote:....that in 2012 Israel froze the bank accounts of the Church yet again accusing her that she has not paid the water bill since 1967, that the water supply to the Church is a right granted to all religious institutions(including the Jewish ones) for free by the Muslim authorities and that [b]Israel has officially declared as a condition for its recognition by the UN that it respects all privileges of the Religious authorities in Jerusalem as enshrined in existing Palestine law


So you actually do not care if Jordan threatened the Church, pretending that not being recognised by the Jordanian government would not freeze its assets in Jordanian territory, and pretending that the Church did not buckle under the pressure. Really nuanced attitude there!


No it would not freeze any of its assets, only Israel has frozen the Christian Church's bank accounts and prevented her from maintaining the Tomb Of Jesus and its Christian Schools, only a zionist extremist would try to justify these actions but since you have lost all credibility in here it is no surprise that you would try to these non-sense as well.

Perhaps you should follow the example of Lightman:

Lightman wrote:Reading these articles, the Israeli government's actions do sound at least somewhat suspect.


The Immortal Goon wrote:Fortunately, of course, the belief in apocalyptic nonsense is quite misplaced.


The persecution of the Christian Church in Israel which feeds into these apocalyptic non-sense is however not misplaced and that is the most worrying bit.
Last edited by noemon on 24 Apr 2016 18:47, edited 1 time in total.
#14673498


I'm not accusing the Church, I'm simply basing myself on a report issued by the PA, which is hardly a "Zionist apologist" I think.

Obviously Israel will be suspect if one is spoon-fed by someone who selectively quoted from the sources like you. It's what your nonsense is based on, after all.
#14673499
Well. Everyone outside can talk all they want.
but for us on the ground. We know that Israel is an aggressor state. We're at war with it and it will never end.


Well. I never asserted that the conservatives were right. Neoman asserted that they are not underdogs. Thank you very much for letting me know that the conservatives are not unjustified in their beliefs that Israel is besieged.

No it would not freeze any of its assets, only Israel has frozen the Christian Church's bank accounts and prevented her from maintaining the Tomb Of Jesus and its Christian Schools, only a zionist extremist would try to justify these actions but since you have lost all credibility in here it is no surprise that you would try to these non-sense as well.


Let me set you straight son. There IS NO Christian Church. We are talking about one group among perhaps 100 or more with a presence in Israel. We are talking about (as Wat0n said and you continue to ignore) a dispute taken to the civil courts by members of that group and not an action of policy by the Israeli government. I completely understand your desire to resort to distortion to try and save your point but I condemn it. Christians and Jews have lived peacefully in Jerusalem since its beginning.

Fortunately, of course, the belief in apololyptic nonsense is quite misplaced.


I agree. I would not put to much stock in this though. Some evangelicals may be literal enough to think they can engineer the rapture but I believe that this would be a very small number of them. The broader question refers to "North American Conservatives". This group would be a relatively small subset of that group. My opinion is that support for Israel is more visceral(?)...than that.
#14673501
wat0n wrote:I'm not accusing the Church, I'm simply basing myself on a report issued by the PA, which is hardly a "Zionist apologist" I think.
Obviously Israel will be suspect if one is spoon-fed by someone who selectively quoted from the sources like you. It's what your nonsense is based on, after all.


Your claim that Christians pressed charges again their own Patriarch Ireneos is of course a lie that does not exist in any Palestinian report. The fact of the matter is blatantly stated by Haaretz:

Haaretz wrote:The Israeli government refused to approve Irineos' election as Jerusalem's patriarch for two years as ministers accused him of hating Israel and being close to Yasser Arafat.
In January 2004, the government gave its approval for his appointment, as required by tradition. Irineos negotiated the sale of the properties to a Jewish buyer and signed the deal soon afterward, in what could be seen as a payoff for making his installation as patriarch possible.


Ministers of Israel accusing him and freezing the Church's bank account to steal her property is the fact which you so brazenly ignore. The fact that this is sustained and that the next Patriarch had to face the same ordeal is also something which you ignore.

That Lightman considers Israel suspect after reading these articles and you considering him stupid enough to be influenced by me is quite ridiculous even for you, maybe you should grab that paper bag instead of trying to make excuses for the impossible.

Drlee wrote:Let me set you straight son. There IS NO Christian Church. We are talking about one group among perhaps 100 or more with a presence in Israel. We are talking about (as Wat0n said and you continue to ignore) a dispute taken to the civil courts by members of that group and not an action of policy by the Israeli government.


We are talking about the Custodians of the Tomb of Jesus Christ and them being prevented from maintaining it. And this is not a dispute taken to civil courts by members of the Church. That is a lie that wat0n came up with out of his own behind. If you want to use lies to defend the impossible it does not say much about you, you know.

As Haaretz says Israel unfroze the bank accounts only after the Church was forced to sell its land to settlers. Now as a professing Christian, I don't see how you can run away from these facts.

What do you think other people think of you, when you(a professing Christian) pretends on this? What do you think Jesus thinks when Israelis so brazenly prevent the maintenance of his grave?
#14673516
noemon wrote:Your claim that Christians pressed charges again their own Patriarch Ireneos is of course a lie that does not exist in any Palestinian report. The fact of the matter is blatantly stated by Haaretz:


Haaretz wrote:The Israeli government refused to approve Irineos' election as Jerusalem's patriarch for two years as ministers accused him of hating Israel and being close to Yasser Arafat.
In January 2004, the government gave its approval for his appointment, as required by tradition. Irineos negotiated the sale of the properties to a Jewish buyer and signed the deal soon afterward, in what could be seen as a payoff for making his installation as patriarch possible.


noemon wrote:Ministers of Israel accusing him and freezing the Church's bank account to steal her property is the fact which you so brazenly ignore. The fact that this is sustained and that the next Patriarch had to face the same ordeal is also something which you ignore.

That Lightman considers Israel suspect after reading these articles and you considering him stupid enough to be influenced by me is quite ridiculous even for you, maybe you should grab that paper bag instead of trying to make excuses for the impossible.


And yet the fact remains that the PA report does state that Iraneios' election was contested by his opponents within the Church, and indeed it claims that they accused him of criminal behavior and also before some Israeli ministers of supporting Arafat:

PA Report wrote:Background

Ireneos' path was not paved with roses when he assumed the leadership of the Patriarchate. From the beginning of his election to the post as Patriarch of the Holy City, he found himself engulfed with strong and shrewd opposition and contenders having close contacts with countries, officials and strong politicians in Israel, Jordan, Greece and Russia, etc.

His contenders did not concede his victory and election as a Patriarch. They continued their attacks on him from all directions. They managed to convince the Israeli Government that Ireneos is anti-Semitic and is not comfortable to the Israeli government. No, on the contrary, he was a pro-Palestinian. They reinforced this claim by showing copies of letters and meetings with the late President Yaser Arafat. The refusal of the Israeli government to recognize him after his election impeded him from executing his basic duties as Patriarch.

He was unauthorized even to sign a check drawn on any bank in the name of the Patriarchate. Neither was he allowed to sign any order or contract or undertaking before any official circle or any official papers. As a result he suffered from a financial crisis that affected not only him but all those who collaborated with him from among his followers or companions, be they monks or secularists alike.

His predecessor or those around him left him an empty coffer and treasury and passed on to him debts and dues estimated about NIS 85 million. Sources of revenue were scarce and there were several pending cases before courts, distributed among several law firms.

The property files were not in order. They were not in their proper place at the Patriarchate’s Treasury Department. As well as the files of the deals which were arranged, edited, signed and endorsed by his predecessors. These were not in the offices of the Patriarchate, but they were distributed and kept at the offices of the lawyers who handled them. In view of all the above, he was unable to see what his predecessors have done or what they have left him. That was still in need of handling and follow-up, and to apprise himself of what was going on.

The land of the monasteries, especially the holy places related to the Patriarchate, was either a property or a trust to the appointed head. This has been the practice over the years. The appointment of favorites to head the monasteries or the holy place was a means to buy the appointed archimandrite or bishop. Changing this situation and reorganizing and reforming the status-quo and the imposition of financial control on all monasteries and channeling and recording their revenues to the Patriarchate treasury, was a factor that caused grumbling and dissatisfaction and was a motive for opposing the Patriarch.

The efforts of the Patriarch to urge the Israeli government to recognize him as Patriarch were prolonged to no avail. Thus, he was forced to resort to Israeli lawyers to represent him before official circles whence he demanded that they issue their decision. When no response was received he petitioned the High Court against the government, demanding that the latter explain the reasons behind the government’s refusal to recognize him as Patriarch of the Holy City. The High Court dismissed this petition when the public prosecutor attributed the delay to on- going investigation of the elected Patriarch’s past, and whether he was involved in criminal cases. Following a lengthy delay, and for lack of any evidence of criminal cases against him as claimed by his opponents, the Israeli government endorsed his election on January 28, 2004.


The report also clears Iraneios from wrongdoing, and most certainly disagrees with those who claim that he negotiated the sale of the property as a payoff for being recognized by the Israeli government.

PS: Oh, and it should be noted that the Ha'aretz article simply states Papadimas' account of what happened, the same one the PA accuses of negotiating behind Iraneios' back.
#14673522
wat0n wrote:And yet the fact remains that the PA report does state that Iraneios' election was contested by his opponents within the Church


So you admit that you posted a blatant lie that Christian people pressed charges on him in Israeli courts, as for your claim that Synod Members of the Church accused their own Patriarch and that the report allegedly shows that...you are simply misquoting the report:

PA report which you forgot wrote:Key Synod members continued to defend the Patriarch and denied any involvement by him in the deal.
They augmented their support and backing of the Patriarch with a petition signed by 55 priests, archimandrites and bishops. They forwarded the petition to the Greek Prime Minister, demanding action or intervention against some clerics who incited against the Patriarch and inflamed tempers against him.
The leaders of the instigators met on May 4, 2005 to organize the mutiny. They decided to prepare a petition containing their demands for the removal and boycotting the Patriarch.



Following a lengthy delay, and for lack of any evidence of criminal cases against him as claimed by his opponents, the Israeli government endorsed his election on January 28, 2004.


The opponents of the Church are in the Israeli government:

Haaretz wrote:The Israeli government refused to approve Irineos' election as Jerusalem's patriarch for two years as ministers accused him of hating Israel and being close to Yasser Arafat.
In January 2004, the government gave its approval for his appointment, as required by tradition. Irineos negotiated the sale of the properties to a Jewish buyer and signed the deal soon afterward, in what could be seen as a payoff for making his installation as patriarch possible.


Ministers refers to Israeli ministers dear wat0n and Haaretz, Lightman as well as normal people understand quite clearly why this persecution is taking place and accompanied by threats to sell land to settlers and it is not just against Ireneos but against Theophilos as well; the Christian Church in the Holy Land is under a constant siege by Israel, between 2002 and 2012 Israel has frozen her accounts for the majority of this decade and on 3 separate occasions. Patriarch's cars have been rammed, Israelis have threatened them which are parts from the report which you so flagrantly ignore and forgot to quote and pitiful zionists like yourself are trying to justify all these actions and blame the victims which further ridicules you in this community, so please do carry on so that all can see in what kind of levels you are capable to reach to justify the persecution of Christians.

Bits that you forgot which shows that Israeli government not only was behind this but paid for it out of its own pockets and how threatening all this behaviour is.

The buyers' lawyer is a well-known Israeli, who is famous for his experience in representing the extreme right, including Arfing Moscowitz, Himont Company, Alert Cohanim, ELAD institution. All of them are well-known extreme rightists. Their members, aims and practices are known. They seek to buy Arab property within the walls of the Old City and in East Jerusalem and in various locations, with the aim of expanding Israeli control over settlement sites in Arab Jerusalem. Among the well-known cases in which he represents settlers, the lease of Saint John building in the Old City. It turned out that the Israeli government stood behind its purchase, and paid for it from the budget of the Ministry of Housing. The buyers’ lawyers have strong and diversified relations with political circles from the Right wing which support his clients.


Hardly two weeks had passed Mr. Cohen (Mati) and Mr. Levin had reiterated their request from the Patriarch and the Archimandrite. To cooperate with them to conclude the deals, Levin threatened that unless the Patriarch cooperates with them, a grave thing will happen.[/b] Once again, the Patriarch insisted on his unwillingness to talk about or enter into any negotiations regarding any deal with Papadimas. He insisted upon seeing the document. The response was that the Patriarch had until March 17, 2005 to decide, otherwise, “an atomic bomb” will fall at the Patriarch’s court. Indeed, on March 17, 2005, they called the Patriarch and renewed their warning. They gave him until 5 pm to respond or “the bomb will explode”.
Last edited by noemon on 24 Apr 2016 20:55, edited 1 time in total.
#14673525
Ah, the usual selective quoting of my arguments, then use that to distort them and say that I admitted your idiotic allegations.

I take it that you are butthurt because not even the PA's attorneys' report agrees with your claims. Please, keep crying noemon. I love your tears
#14673526
Now as a professing Christian, I don't see how you can run away from these facts.

What do you think other people think of you, when you(a professing Christian) pretends on this? What do you think Jesus thinks when Israelis so brazenly prevent the maintenance of his grave?


I am a Christian. Nobody, particularly you, has any right to challenge that. Your continuing to goad me is offensive and frankly childish. You are hijacking this thread over a triviality already resolved. And, even you must admit, resolved by the Israeli courts IN FAVOR of the person you claim was abused. So please stop challenging my religious beliefs simply because I do not agree with your political position.

I have resisted posting story after story (and I could find hundreds) about Christians being persecuted, murdered, raped, enslaved and such under Islam. Yet you someone grab one truly insignificant story and try to build a case for oppression on it. You have lost your sense of proportion entirely. Your hatred of Israel is beyond obvious and it has clouded your judgment. Do not feel all alone. There are dozens of folks here behaving just like you.

On edit:

internal christian affairs is none of your business just like internal synagogue affairs is none of my business, and does not grant right to Israel to freeze the Christian church's bank accounts and prevent her from maintaining its schools and the Tomb of Jesus Christ.


Nonsense. US Courts exercise ultimate law enforcement authority over church dealings and so do the Israeli courts. All religious organizations ought to ultimately be subject to the civil law. If you could take your blinders off for a moment you would realize that it is to these very civil courts that churches turn for protection under the law too.

As to the nonsense about not being able to maintain the tomb. The tomb is fine and was never in danger of damage. You are engaging in hyperbole. As for schools? Not impressed. Not at all. Religious organizations must persevere. And this one did.
#14673529
wat0n dishonestly claimed that the Christian Church raised a lawsuit against its own elected Patriarch:

wat0n wrote:I would perfectly understand if their accounts were frozen because of a lawsuit raised by members of the community against its leadership alleging legal wrongdoing.


Reality:

PA report wrote:Key Synod members continued to defend the Patriarch and denied any involvement by him in the deal.
They augmented their support and backing of the Patriarch with a petition signed by 55 priests, archimandrites and bishops. They forwarded the petition to the Greek Prime Minister, demanding action or intervention against some clerics who incited against the Patriarch and inflamed tempers against him.
The leaders of the instigators met on May 4, 2005 to organize the mutiny. They decided to prepare a petition containing their demands for the removal and boycotting the Patriarch.


More reality from Haaretz:

Haaretz wrote:The Israeli government refused to approve Irineos' election as Jerusalem's patriarch for two years as ministers accused him of hating Israel and being close to Yasser Arafat.
In January 2004, the government gave its approval for his appointment, as required by tradition. Irineos negotiated the sale of the properties to a Jewish buyer and signed the deal soon afterward, in what could be seen as a payoff for making his installation as patriarch possible.


More reality from the Independent:

Independent wrote:Moreover, as Patriarch Theophilus explains, "our bank accounts are frozen" so that money due to the patriarchate "is impossible for us to receive in our own name".
Yesterday, the Jerusalem District Court deferred a hearing on an appeal by Theophilus's lawyers until tomorrow. These unholy wars arise because for two years after his election, the government of Israel – unlike those of Greece and Jordan, and the Palestinian Authority – has not recognised Theophilus as the Patriarch. Theophilus says that "the White House recognised us from the outset. I have received a very nice letter from President Bush signed by himself." Last month he declared that the government of Israel had "for the first time interfered in the inner functioning and administration of a spiritual institution and tried directly and indirectly to determine who is going to be the spiritual leader of the Church and the community".

Though he is, at times, coy about using the word, Theophilus's basic charge is that for two years attempts have been made to blackmail him into completing and approving the "unfulfilled" – and in political terms radioactively sensitive – deals made during the tenure of his predecessor. Last month, he detailed his complaints about his treatment by Israel – which he has described as a "humiliation and ridiculousness" – at a meeting with Condoleezza Rice, the US Secretary of State, during her last trip to Jerusalem.


Drlee wrote:And, even you must admit, resolved by the Israeli courts IN FAVOUR of the person you claim was abused.


Get a grip please, between 2002-2012 Israel froze the bank accounts of the church for the majority of this decade on 3 separate occasions under 2 separate Patriarchs, people rammed the Patriarchs car and threatened him directly to sell the land to the Israeli settlers, Israeli recognition came only after the coercion had succeeded.

Drlee wrote:Nonsense. US Courts exercise ultimate law enforcement authority over church dealings and so do the Israeli courts. All religious organisations ought to ultimately be subject to the civil law.


Are you seriously claiming that the US freezes the bank accounts of religious institutions to coerce them to steal their land? Because that would be utter news to me.

Drlee wrote:As to the nonsense about not being able to maintain the tomb. The tomb is fine and was never in danger of damage. You are engaging in hyperbole.


The Guardian wrote:Patriarch Theophilos III told Maariv: "If nothing changes we intend to announce within a few days, for the first time in centuries, that the Church of the Holy Sepulchre is closed."


Drlee wrote:I have resisted posting story after story (and I could find hundreds) about Christians being persecuted, murdered, raped, enslaved and such under Islam.


You spoke about the treatment of the Christian Church in the Holy Land and Israel is treating the Church far worse than the Muslims did as all these events clearly prove and these are taking place in the modern-day, not in the distant past as a result of wars unless you are going to pretend now that Israel is at war with Christianity.

Not impressed. Not at all. Religious organizations must persevere. And this one did.


That it persevered does not mean that she was not persecuted as you claim and of course it persevered and it will continue to persevere even if Christians like you do not even recognise her persecution.

PA report wrote:The buyers' lawyer is a well-known Israeli, who is famous for his experience in representing the extreme right, including Arfing Moscowitz, Himont Company, Alert Cohanim, ELAD institution. All of them are well-known extreme rightists. Their members, aims and practices are known. They seek to buy Arab property within the walls of the Old City and in East Jerusalem and in various locations, with the aim of expanding Israeli control over settlement sites in Arab Jerusalem. Among the well-known cases in which he represents settlers, the lease of Saint John building in the Old City. It turned out that the Israeli government stood behind its purchase, and paid for it from the budget of the Ministry of Housing. The buyers’ lawyers have strong and diversified relations with political circles from the Right wing which support his clients.


Hardly two weeks had passed Mr. Cohen (Mati) and Mr. Levin had reiterated their request from the Patriarch and the Archimandrite. To cooperate with them to conclude the deals, Levin threatened that unless the Patriarch cooperates with them, a grave thing will happen. Once again, the Patriarch insisted on his unwillingness to talk about or enter into any negotiations regarding any deal with Papadimas. He insisted upon seeing the document. The response was that the Patriarch had until March 17, 2005 to decide, otherwise, “an atomic bomb” will fall at the Patriarch’s court. Indeed, on March 17, 2005, they called the Patriarch and renewed their warning. They gave him until 5 pm to respond or “the bomb will explode”.


You can pretend all you like but at the end of the day you will have to answer to your own conscience at least. It is not my fault that Israelis are so brazen and that they do not give a shit about the Christians in the Holy Land, unlike you pretended that they do.
Last edited by noemon on 24 Apr 2016 21:18, edited 2 times in total.
#14673530
These so called Palestinian Muslims are the descendants of the Ottoman genociders. The idea that Christians should prefer Muslim rule to Israeli rule is beyond absurd. Christians often paid a leading role in Arab nationalism. Hopefully Arab Christians have realised that was a terrible mistake. Perhaps the Druze and Alawites will start to realise that the Muslims are their real enemy as well. Islamic State might be extreme, but they are an extreme of tyrannical bullying tendencies which lay (sometime dormant) within the majority of Muslims. Christians are attacked and abused across the Muslim world. Its pathetic the way the Muslim lovers, the terrorist apologists clutch at the most incidental events to put Muslims in a good light.
#14673532
Rich wrote:These so called Palestinian Muslims are the descendants of the Ottoman genociders. The idea that Christians should prefer Muslim rule to Israeli rule is beyond absurd.


The Christian Church in the Holy Land had it better under the Muslims than under the Jews today. The Muslims have established certain rights for the Christians in the Holy Land, rights which have been removed by the Israeli Occupation Authorities in frigging occupied territory. That is a fact. Ottoman crimes took place during war, not during peace and if you compare Muslim crimes during war with Jewish crimes during peace that does not help your argument much.

The Muslims have done a lot to Christians but does not mean that we should justify everything just because you happen to hate them more.
#14673535
noemon wrote:wat0n dishonestly claimed that the Christian Church raised a lawsuit against its own elected Patriarch:

Reality:

More reality from Haaretz:

More reality from the Independent:


Actual reality, you are dishonestly omitting from the PA report:

PA Report wrote:The leaders of the instigators met on May 4, 2005 to organize the mutiny. They decided to prepare a petition containing their demands for the removal and boycotting the Patriarch.

At first, the petition was signed by the opposition.

Later, they approached the priests, monks and the bishops who supported the Patriarch and pressured them to sign it. They deliberately asked the Synod member not to attend the pro-Patriarch meeting on May 6, 2005.

The opposition leader was fully aware and convinced that should the Synod members attend the meeting, they would not vote for the demands contained in the petition. In addition to that the Synod was to meet at the request of the Patriarch; therefore, the agenda did not include a request for the boycott of the Patriarch or his removal. Also, the married priests who have the right to participate in the election of the Patriarch were not convened, nor were they invited to convene for the purpose of the removal of the Patriarch. Consequently, no decision was taken by them. Bearing in mind that the majority of those priests were Arabs and part of the Arab Orthodox denomination. Their absence was not an overlook. The Arab denomination and its priesthood were the wood fuelling the raging fire ignited by the opposition against the Patriarch inside the Patriarchate. On May 6, 2005, a large number of the Synod members and monks including many of those who signed the support petition demanded the boycott and dismissal of the Patriarch. This was a beginning of the declared and prominent move of the Greek clerics within the Patriarchate to topple the Patriarch.

The Israeli circle, who claimed to have bought in accordance with a deal, was not discouraged, and continued its contacts with the Patriarch in an attempt to blackmail him. It kept him informed ahead of any action or step or meeting planned by the opposition and what it would result in. They informed him in advance about the second press report published by Ma’ariv on the "Great Friday" in the eve of April 29, 2005.

They informed him about the meeting on May 9, 2005 and that it would result in the formation of the tripartite commission.

A representative of the Ministry of Justice visited him and asked him to refrain from holding a third Synod session and not to dismiss the opposition members on the pretext of cooling tempers. On the other hand, the Patriarch of Constantinople called and asked him not to dismiss the opposition members.

He was informed of the bishops’ meeting in Constantinople and that his acquittal was in their hands, and that they had documents about previous deals regarding the same property and that this will help him in his claim that the deals date back to the time of his predecessor. They informed him of the first Synod's opposition meeting and that it was incomplete, and they informed him of the second opposition Synod meeting and that it didn't reach any conclusions; and they informed him of the third opposition Synod meeting and that it will end up appointing an acting Patriarch. They proved to him that their information was accurate and correct and that it goes as they say. This proves the relation of the Israeli side and its influence on what was going on within the opposition. Accordingly, and throughout all these stages they repeated their offer of the necessity of a solution by his acquiescing in their demand for collaboration. They asked him to get rid of the Palestinian lawyers.


And its conclusions:

PA Report wrote:5. A very well calculated plan unfolded before us. It was schemed by a number of clerics opposing Ireneos in collaboration with Israeli Extreme Right Wingers. Their interest converged in the aim of getting rid of Ireneos step by step.
#14673537
Your logic is flawed. Israel is not beseiged because it just is.
Israelvcreated the situation where everyone hates it because it commited acts of aggression against everyone around it.
Israel is not "defending" it self. Israel was created by aggression and continued as that. Its not seperate wars. Its the same war. And everytime it keeps assaulting more groups and entities and gaining more enemies.

The druze as said were friendly. Israel out of no where started attacking civillians from them. Not hostile.
Christians of the mid east the same.
Shia the same.
Heck the Persian tribes including their branches havent declared war in 200 years and have been apolitical most of it. Are now reassembling because Israel is attacking their branches in Lebanon and buying out the US to attack them.
Israel is an aggressor. Its not the underdog or victim.
But after all. You're an American. Expected from a criminal state to support anther.
#14673538
Actual reality


Where is that lawsuit you dishonestly claimed? And of course you can keep ignoring the facts and keep ignoring that Israel has frozen the church bank accounts on 3 separate occasions and for the majority of the 2002-2012 decade. You can keep blaming the Christians themselves for the actions of the Israeli government to freeze their bank accounts and result to the near closure of the Holy Sepulchre the Holiest Christian Site in the world. You just keep on confirming to everyone in what lengths you are willing to go to justify the impossible.

PA report wrote:Key Synod members continued to defend the Patriarch and denied any involvement by him in the deal.
They augmented their support and backing of the Patriarch with a petition signed by 55 priests, archimandrites and bishops. They forwarded the petition to the Greek Prime Minister, demanding action or intervention against some clerics who incited against the Patriarch and inflamed tempers against him.
The leaders of the instigators met on May 4, 2005 to organize the mutiny. They decided to prepare a petition containing their demands for the removal and boycotting the Patriarch.


More reality from Haaretz:

Haaretz wrote:The Israeli government refused to approve Irineos' election as Jerusalem's patriarch for two years as ministers accused him of hating Israel and being close to Yasser Arafat.
In January 2004, the government gave its approval for his appointment, as required by tradition. Irineos negotiated the sale of the properties to a Jewish buyer and signed the deal soon afterward, in what could be seen as a payoff for making his installation as patriarch possible.


More reality from the Independent:

Independent wrote:Moreover, as Patriarch Theophilus explains, "our bank accounts are frozen" so that money due to the patriarchate "is impossible for us to receive in our own name".
Yesterday, the Jerusalem District Court deferred a hearing on an appeal by Theophilus's lawyers until tomorrow. These unholy wars arise because for two years after his election, the government of Israel – unlike those of Greece and Jordan, and the Palestinian Authority – has not recognised Theophilus as the Patriarch. Theophilus says that "the White House recognised us from the outset. I have received a very nice letter from President Bush signed by himself." Last month he declared that the government of Israel had "for the first time interfered in the inner functioning and administration of a spiritual institution and tried directly and indirectly to determine who is going to be the spiritual leader of the Church and the community".


From the Guardian:

The Guardian wrote:Patriarch Theophilos III told Maariv: "If nothing changes we intend to announce within a few days, for the first time in centuries, that the Church of the Holy Sepulchre is closed."


From the PA report:

PA report wrote:The buyers' lawyer is a well-known Israeli, who is famous for his experience in representing the extreme right, including Arfing Moscowitz, Himont Company, Alert Cohanim, ELAD institution. All of them are well-known extreme rightists. Their members, aims and practices are known. They seek to buy Arab property within the walls of the Old City and in East Jerusalem and in various locations, with the aim of expanding Israeli control over settlement sites in Arab Jerusalem. Among the well-known cases in which he represents settlers, the lease of Saint John building in the Old City. It turned out that the Israeli government stood behind its purchase, and paid for it from the budget of the Ministry of Housing. The buyers’ lawyers have strong and diversified relations with political circles from the Right wing which support his clients.


Hardly two weeks had passed Mr. Cohen (Mati) and Mr. Levin had reiterated their request from the Patriarch and the Archimandrite. To cooperate with them to conclude the deals, Levin threatened that unless the Patriarch cooperates with them, a grave thing will happen. Once again, the Patriarch insisted on his unwillingness to talk about or enter into any negotiations regarding any deal with Papadimas. He insisted upon seeing the document. The response was that the Patriarch had until March 17, 2005 to decide, otherwise, “an atomic bomb” will fall at the Patriarch’s court. Indeed, on March 17, 2005, they called the Patriarch and renewed their warning. They gave him until 5 pm to respond or “the bomb will explode”.
#14673541
Yes you're right Noemon, how could a trivial transgression like the Armenian holocaust compare with:
noemon wrote:that Israel has frozen the church bank accounts on 3 separate occasions and for the majority of the 2002-2012 decade.

Of course we evil British were guilt of destabilising Greece when it was so free, happy and prosperous under the Ottomans.
#14673542
You would be very silly to assume that I a Greek person consider the Greek, Armenian or Assyrian genocides as worse than that. I have spoken about these Turkish crimes numerous times as well.

But it does not change the fact that all these crimes took place during a war, not during peace and that Israel is persecuting the Christian church in the present day in the years 2002-2012, it does not change the fact that Israel has removed the rights of the Church granted to her by the Muslim authorities in Palestine.

Rich wrote:Of course we evil British were guilt of destabilising Greece when it was so free, happy and prosperous under the Ottomans.


You British were Ottoman allies and only after British philhellenes like Lord Byron died for the Greek cause did the public opinion forced the government to switch sides.
Also you were the ones who consulted the Turkish authorities to conduct a pogrom against the Greeks of Constantinople in 1955 just so the UN Assembly on the independence of Cyprus gets cancelled, which it eventually did.

Your manicheistic view of the world is not only childish but quite petulant especially for a perfidious Albion.

And most importantly your claim is not that Christians are better off free from the Muslims but that they are better off under the Jews when compared to the Muslims, and how do you reach this conclusion when rights given to them by Muslims are removed from them by the Jews?
Last edited by noemon on 24 Apr 2016 22:22, edited 1 time in total.
#14673544
noemon wrote:Where is that lawsuit you dishonestly claimed? And of course you can keep ignoring the facts and keep ignoring that Israel has frozen the church bank accounts on 3 separate occasions and for the majority of the 2002-2012 decade. You can keep blaming the Christians themselves for the actions of the Israeli government to freeze their bank accounts and result to the near closure of the Holy Sepulchre the Holiest Christian Site in the world. You just keep on confirming to everyone in what lengths you are willing to go to justify the impossible.




You can just keep crying and playing dumb on what the PA's report on the matter concluded, including its criticism of how the Church deals with its affairs, as much as you want but that won't make them go away.

PA Report wrote:In the course of this investigation, we got information that shows and reflects the general position of the Patriarchate. We also got information about previous deals carried out during the 1990s and prior to that. Our attention was drawn in particular, to the organizational and administrative situation in the Patriarchate. This situation reflects a negative image manifested in deeply rooted chaos and corruption. This makes it imperative upon the incumbents to take immediate action to put an end to this deplorable situation. We would not have touched upon this internal issue, had it not been one of the reasons that led to the case in question.
#14673546
I see wat0n has gone into full trolling mode since he is unable to prove his dishonest claim of a supposed lawsuit, which is very amusing and I'm looking forward to see how much lower he is going to go when he does not even have the minimum decency to recognise what his fellow zionist Lightman already did, in the meantime all these facts are still waiting:

Haaretz wrote:The Israeli government refused to approve Irineos' election as Jerusalem's patriarch for two years as ministers accused him of hating Israel and being close to Yasser Arafat.
In January 2004, the government gave its approval for his appointment, as required by tradition. Irineos negotiated the sale of the properties to a Jewish buyer and signed the deal soon afterward, in what could be seen as a payoff for making his installation as patriarch possible.


More reality from the Independent:

Independent wrote:Moreover, as Patriarch Theophilus explains, "our bank accounts are frozen" so that money due to the patriarchate "is impossible for us to receive in our own name".
Yesterday, the Jerusalem District Court deferred a hearing on an appeal by Theophilus's lawyers until tomorrow. These unholy wars arise because for two years after his election, the government of Israel – unlike those of Greece and Jordan, and the Palestinian Authority – has not recognised Theophilus as the Patriarch. Theophilus says that "the White House recognised us from the outset. I have received a very nice letter from President Bush signed by himself." Last month he declared that the government of Israel had "for the first time interfered in the inner functioning and administration of a spiritual institution and tried directly and indirectly to determine who is going to be the spiritual leader of the Church and the community".


From the Guardian:

The Guardian wrote:Patriarch Theophilos III told Maariv: "If nothing changes we intend to announce within a few days, for the first time in centuries, that the Church of the Holy Sepulchre is closed."


From the PA report:

PA report wrote:The buyers' lawyer is a well-known Israeli, who is famous for his experience in representing the extreme right, including Arfing Moscowitz, Himont Company, Alert Cohanim, ELAD institution. All of them are well-known extreme rightists. Their members, aims and practices are known. They seek to buy Arab property within the walls of the Old City and in East Jerusalem and in various locations, with the aim of expanding Israeli control over settlement sites in Arab Jerusalem. Among the well-known cases in which he represents settlers, the lease of Saint John building in the Old City. It turned out that the Israeli government stood behind its purchase, and paid for it from the budget of the Ministry of Housing. The buyers’ lawyers have strong and diversified relations with political circles from the Right wing which support his clients.


Hardly two weeks had passed Mr. Cohen (Mati) and Mr. Levin had reiterated their request from the Patriarch and the Archimandrite. To cooperate with them to conclude the deals, Levin threatened that unless the Patriarch cooperates with them, a grave thing will happen. Once again, the Patriarch insisted on his unwillingness to talk about or enter into any negotiations regarding any deal with Papadimas. He insisted upon seeing the document. The response was that the Patriarch had until March 17, 2005 to decide, otherwise, “an atomic bomb” will fall at the Patriarch’s court. Indeed, on March 17, 2005, they called the Patriarch and renewed their warning. They gave him until 5 pm to respond or “the bomb will explode”.


wat0n blames the Christian Church for deals conducted with Israel:

wat0n quotes on the previous post in an attempt to undermine the Christian Church and as such justify its persecution wrote:In the course of this investigation, we got information that shows and reflects the general position of the Patriarchate. We also got information about previous deals carried out during the 1990s and prior to that.


That is like the cherry on the cake.

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