[noemon]

I see wat0n has gone into full trolling mode since he is unable to prove his dishonest claim that Christians pressed charges against their own Patriarch, which is very amusing and I'm looking forward to see how much lower he is going to go when he does not even have the minimum decency to recognise what his fellow zionist Lightman already did, wat0n is also accusing the Church itself for its persecution by the Israeli government while using exactly the same argument that the Nazis used against the Jews which is quite disgusting but I don't think that wat0n understands disgust anymore, in the meantime all these facts are still waiting:

The Israeli government refused to approve Irineos' election as Jerusalem's patriarch for two years as ministers accused him of hating Israel and being close to Yasser Arafat.
In January 2004, the government gave its approval for his appointment, as required by tradition. Irineos negotiated the sale of the properties to a Jewish buyer and signed the deal soon afterward, in what could be seen as a payoff for making his installation as patriarch possible.

More reality from the Independent:

Moreover, as Patriarch Theophilus explains, "our bank accounts are frozen" so that money due to the patriarchate "is impossible for us to receive in our own name".
Yesterday, the Jerusalem District Court deferred a hearing on an appeal by Theophilus's lawyers until tomorrow. These unholy wars arise because for two years after his election, the government of Israel – unlike those of Greece and Jordan, and the Palestinian Authority – has not recognised Theophilus as the Patriarch. Theophilus says that "the White House recognised us from the outset. I have received a very nice letter from President Bush signed by himself." Last month he declared that the government of Israel had "for the first time interfered in the inner functioning and administration of a spiritual institution and tried directly and indirectly to determine who is going to be the spiritual leader of the Church and the community".

From the Guardian:

Patriarch Theophilos III told Maariv: "If nothing changes we intend to announce within a few days, for the first time in centuries, that the Church of the Holy Sepulchre is closed."

From the PA report:

The buyers' lawyer is a well-known Israeli, who is famous for his experience in representing the extreme right, including Arfing Moscowitz, Himont Company, Alert Cohanim, ELAD institution. All of them are well-known extreme rightists. Their members, aims and practices are known. They seek to buy Arab property within the walls of the Old City and in East Jerusalem and in various locations, with the aim of expanding Israeli control over settlement sites in Arab Jerusalem. Among the well-known cases in which he represents settlers, the lease of Saint John building in the Old City. It turned out that the Israeli government stood behind its purchase, and paid for it from the budget of the Ministry of Housing. The buyers’ lawyers have strong and diversified relations with political circles from the Right wing which support his clients.


Hardly two weeks had passed Mr. Cohen (Mati) and Mr. Levin had reiterated their request from the Patriarch and the Archimandrite. To cooperate with them to conclude the deals, Levin threatened that unless the Patriarch cooperates with them, a grave thing will happen. Once again, the Patriarch insisted on his unwillingness to talk about or enter into any negotiations regarding any deal with Papadimas. He insisted upon seeing the document. The response was that the Patriarch had until March 17, 2005 to decide, otherwise, “an atomic bomb” will fall at the Patriarch’s court. Indeed, on March 17, 2005, they called the Patriarch and renewed their warning. They gave him until 5 pm to respond or “the bomb will explode”.

wat0n blames the Christian Church for deals conducted with Israel:

In the course of this investigation, we got information that shows and reflects the general position of the Patriarchate. We also got information about previous deals carried out during the 1990s and prior to that.

That is like the cherry on the cake.

[Drlee]

They forwarded the petition to the Greek Prime Minister, demanding action or intervention against some clerics who incited against the Patriarch and inflamed tempers against him.

Hmmm. And you posted this. Way to go sport.

I think enough has been said. If Muslims took control of what is now Israel we would most certainly see persecution of Christians of a monumental scale. It is beyond stupid to assert that Christians would have it better than under Israel.

This thread has become comical. Time you take a time out Neoman. You are selling no one.

[noemon]

Are you saying that if some people disagree with their leader that gives right to governments to freeze the assets of the church, prevent them entry to the country, prevent them from maintaining the Tomb of Jesus and their Christian Schools in Jerusalem and result to the near closure of the Holiest Christian Church in the planet the Holy Sepulchre?

On 3 separate occasions under 2 separate Patriarchs for the majority of a decade? That gives right to people to ram the car of the patriarch and to threaten him directly to coerce the sale of land?

So if some Protestants disagree with each other, that gives right to governments to freeze all their assets, if some Jews disagree with each other that gives right to governments to freeze all their assets? Really? Is that what you stand for in your christian life? While ignoring the real reasons behind this?

The buyers' lawyer is a well-known Israeli, who is famous for his experience in representing the extreme right, including Arfing Moscowitz, Himont Company, Alert Cohanim, ELAD institution. All of them are well-known extreme rightists. Their members, aims and practices are known. They seek to buy Arab property within the walls of the Old City and in East Jerusalem and in various locations, with the aim of expanding Israeli control over settlement sites in Arab Jerusalem. Among the well-known cases in which he represents settlers, the lease of Saint John building in the Old City. It turned out that the Israeli government stood behind its purchase, and paid for it from the budget of the Ministry of Housing. The buyers’ lawyers have strong and diversified relations with political circles from the Right wing which support his clients.


Hardly two weeks had passed Mr. Cohen (Mati) and Mr. Levin had reiterated their request from the Patriarch and the Archimandrite. To cooperate with them to conclude the deals, Levin threatened that unless the Patriarch cooperates with them, a grave thing will happen. Once again, the Patriarch insisted on his unwillingness to talk about or enter into any negotiations regarding any deal with Papadimas. He insisted upon seeing the document. The response was that the Patriarch had until March 17, 2005 to decide, otherwise, “an atomic bomb” will fall at the Patriarch’s court. Indeed, on March 17, 2005, they called the Patriarch and renewed their warning. They gave him until 5 pm to respond or “the bomb will explode”.

You do indeed need to take some time out before you make anymore because at the end of the day people are watching and the cheap excuses you concoct only speak for yourself.

[Drlee]

Drlee wrote:

The buyers' lawyer is a well-known Israeli, who is famous for his experience in representing the extreme right, including Arfing Moscowitz, Himont Company, Alert Cohanim, ELAD institution. All of them are well-known extreme rightists. Their members, aims and practices are known. They seek to buy Arab property within the walls of the Old City and in East Jerusalem and in various locations, with the aim of expanding Israeli control over settlement sites in Arab Jerusalem. Among the well-known cases in which he represents settlers, the lease of Saint John building in the Old City. It turned out that the Israeli government stood behind its purchase, and paid for it from the budget of the Ministry of Housing. The buyers’ lawyers have strong and diversified relations with political circles from the Right wing which support his clients.


Hardly two weeks had passed Mr. Cohen (Mati) and Mr. Levin had reiterated their request from the Patriarch and the Archimandrite. To cooperate with them to conclude the deals, Levin threatened that unless the Patriarch cooperates with them, a grave thing will happen. Once again, the Patriarch insisted on his unwillingness to talk about or enter into any negotiations regarding any deal with Papadimas. He insisted upon seeing the document. The response was that the Patriarch had until March 17, 2005 to decide, otherwise, “an atomic bomb” will fall at the Patriarch’s court. Indeed, on March 17, 2005, they called the Patriarch and renewed their warning. They gave him until 5 pm to respond or “the bomb will explode”.

No DrLee didn't write this. Get a fucking grip.

[noemon]

No DrLee didn't write this. Get a fucking grip.

You need to get a grip and reply to the arguments instead of pretending.

Are you saying that if some people disagree with their leader that gives right to governments to freeze the assets of the church, prevent them entry to the country, prevent them from maintaining the Tomb of Jesus and their Christian Schools in Jerusalem and result to the near closure of the Holiest Christian Church in the planet the Holy Sepulchre?

On 3 separate occasions under 2 separate Patriarchs for the majority of a decade? That gives right to people to ram the car of the patriarch and to threaten him directly to coerce the sale of land?

So if some Protestants disagree with each other, that gives right to governments to freeze all their assets, if some Jews disagree with each other that gives right to governments to freeze all their assets? Really? Is that what you stand for in your christian life? While ignoring the real reasons behind this?

The buyers' lawyer is a well-known Israeli, who is famous for his experience in representing the extreme right, including Arfing Moscowitz, Himont Company, Alert Cohanim, ELAD institution. All of them are well-known extreme rightists. Their members, aims and practices are known. They seek to buy Arab property within the walls of the Old City and in East Jerusalem and in various locations, with the aim of expanding Israeli control over settlement sites in Arab Jerusalem. Among the well-known cases in which he represents settlers, the lease of Saint John building in the Old City. It turned out that the Israeli government stood behind its purchase, and paid for it from the budget of the Ministry of Housing. The buyers’ lawyers have strong and diversified relations with political circles from the Right wing which support his clients.

Hardly two weeks had passed Mr. Cohen (Mati) and Mr. Levin had reiterated their request from the Patriarch and the Archimandrite. To cooperate with them to conclude the deals, Levin threatened that unless the Patriarch cooperates with them, a grave thing will happen. Once again, the Patriarch insisted on his unwillingness to talk about or enter into any negotiations regarding any deal with Papadimas. He insisted upon seeing the document. The response was that the Patriarch had until March 17, 2005 to decide, otherwise, “an atomic bomb” will fall at the Patriarch’s court. Indeed, on March 17, 2005, they called the Patriarch and renewed their warning. They gave him until 5 pm to respond or “the bomb will explode”.

You do indeed need to take some time out before you make anymore because at the end of the day people are watching and the cheap excuses you concoct only speak for yourself.

As for wat0n's ridiculous claims, that is why dear there is a Holy Synod in Jerusalem which elects its leaders.

During the interregnum between patriarchs it serves as the supreme body under the chairmanship of the locum tenens. The current President of the Holy Synod is Patriarch Theofilos III of Jerusalem.

And of course your projecting your tears because you are incapable to address the fact of the persecution is quite obvious. The facts are still waiting for you:

The Israeli government refused to approve Irineos' election as Jerusalem's patriarch for two years as ministers accused him of hating Israel and being close to Yasser Arafat.
In January 2004, the government gave its approval for his appointment, as required by tradition. Irineos negotiated the sale of the properties to a Jewish buyer and signed the deal soon afterward, in what could be seen as a payoff for making his installation as patriarch possible.

More reality from the Independent:

Moreover, as Patriarch Theophilus explains, "our bank accounts are frozen" so that money due to the patriarchate "is impossible for us to receive in our own name".
Yesterday, the Jerusalem District Court deferred a hearing on an appeal by Theophilus's lawyers until tomorrow. These unholy wars arise because for two years after his election, the government of Israel – unlike those of Greece and Jordan, and the Palestinian Authority – has not recognised Theophilus as the Patriarch. Theophilus says that "the White House recognised us from the outset. I have received a very nice letter from President Bush signed by himself." Last month he declared that the government of Israel had "for the first time interfered in the inner functioning and administration of a spiritual institution and tried directly and indirectly to determine who is going to be the spiritual leader of the Church and the community".

From the Guardian:

Patriarch Theophilos III told Maariv: "If nothing changes we intend to announce within a few days, for the first time in centuries, that the Church of the Holy Sepulchre is closed."

[Drlee]

Can we please drop this food fight and get back on topic?

[noemon]

Is it possible for a Christian man to acknowledge the obvious?

[Drlee]

Is it possible for a Christian man to acknowledge the obvious?

Do any adults want to pick up this thread. It is an interesting premise.

[wat0n]

[
As for wat0n's ridiculous claims, that is why dear there is a Holy Synod in Jerusalem which elects its leaders.

You are talking as if elections cannot be heavily contested and controversial, even in secular instructions

I can most certainly enjoy your tears, even more so since you insist on your nonsense which I already showed is crap based on hacking off the parts of the sources you are wrong - be it the PA report showing the divisions within the Church, Ha'aretz article's paragraph stating it is Papadimas' version and now your pretense that the Israeli President did not intervene in favor of the Church in the water dispute.

[noemon]

The only thing you showed is how angry and tearful you become when the anti-christian crimes you apologise for cannot be hidden under the rug as well as your abject silence when confronted with reality, your fear that Israel has betrayed you even in the most basic of things that of pretending before the Christians, stenches from a distance. You can pretend all you like but the crimes have already taken place you can now only pray that they will not happen again and the least you can do to save what dignity you have left is to condemn such actions because it destroys Israeli PR even among its friends.

The Israeli government refused to approve Irineos' election as Jerusalem's patriarch for two years as ministers accused him of hating Israel and being close to Yasser Arafat.
In January 2004, the government gave its approval for his appointment, as required by tradition. Irineos negotiated the sale of the properties to a Jewish buyer and signed the deal soon afterward, in what could be seen as a payoff for making his installation as patriarch possible.

More reality from the Independent:

Moreover, as Patriarch Theophilus explains, "our bank accounts are frozen" so that money due to the patriarchate "is impossible for us to receive in our own name".
Yesterday, the Jerusalem District Court deferred a hearing on an appeal by Theophilus's lawyers until tomorrow. These unholy wars arise because for two years after his election, the government of Israel – unlike those of Greece and Jordan, and the Palestinian Authority – has not recognised Theophilus as the Patriarch. Theophilus says that "the White House recognised us from the outset. I have received a very nice letter from President Bush signed by himself." Last month he declared that the government of Israel had "for the first time interfered in the inner functioning and administration of a spiritual institution and tried directly and indirectly to determine who is going to be the spiritual leader of the Church and the community".

From the Guardian:

Patriarch Theophilos III told Maariv: "If nothing changes we intend to announce within a few days, for the first time in centuries, that the Church of the Holy Sepulchre is closed."

[LehmanB]

A different angle to look at this question is why leftists support the Arab culture, and are often against their own nations and own culture..

Jews were part of the western culture, even if Judaism was perceived as a threat to the supriority if the church in the mediavals. Today Jews, and Israel, are an inherent part in the liberal- capitalistic game. From the beginning Israel allied with Europe, and the anglo-sax world. There is no good reason to go against a state who colaborate with you unless you super fear from the Arab world, or unless this state do not share the similar value- what the pro-palestinians obsessively try to 'prove'.