Israel Cheering Donald Trump’s Win, Renews Calls to Abandon 2-State Solution - Page 6 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14742951
noemon wrote:I have read Josephus and he does not give me the impression that he propagates the view that there exists collective hatred at least not on the part of the Greeks and certainly not of the kind like in the examples I mentioned and we don't really need Josephus when we can see that ourselves by examining literature, when there are so many Greek works in theatre, song, poetry, history taking the piss out of Persians but we do not observe anything not even near that against the Jews and the reasons are also obvious, namely that they never posed an existential threat. The fact is that the Jews revolted against their imperialist masters which at the time happened to be the Romans, but they could not take it out on the Romans because there were hardly any Romans in the East so they took it out on the Greeks whom they saw as the agents of the enemy and to animate the rebels they had to build a narrative, in response I am most certain that Greeks in the area responded in kind and animosities took place without a doubt but this did not even register in the Greek mainland, Greek historians, philosophers and schools did not even bother. Cassius Dio who is a Greek and who wrote the history of the Roman-Jewish wars reported it because he obviously had to but we don't observe any "widespread" narrative. Plutarch who is the proverbial Greek folk historian, a priest of Delphi, educated in Athens, he took it upon himself to define the Greek narrative of the time, he lived during that period and he does not even mention it because he simply did not consider it worthy of mention.
You believe it was 'widespread' but how is that possible when they could have retaliated by killing the Jews in Athens, Asia Minor, Byzantium and all the other Jewish communities scattered across the Greek heartlands but they didn't. So I think you have misinterpreted the situation.

The issue is the narrative of eternal hatred of the Jews is largely a fabrication that slots in uniformly with the holocaust for exploitation by Zionists to justify an exclusive Jewish homeland because apparently "everyone" out there wants to slaughter the Jews. Certainly there is religious hatred that has been perpetuated down the years, but had the entire population of the world had it in that hard for the Jews as the narrative wants us to believe, then I am quite certain the Jews would have been fully exterminated long ago. Heck the Romans only made a fuss about the Jews when they stopped paying their taxes, and it took a full blown homicidal Jewish rebellion that exterminated large populations of 'everyone who was not a Jew' to get the Romans to to actual walk in and put down the Jewish population. If the Romans were so genocidal in their hatred of the Jews, why did they let any of them survive at all?

Like all this crap, it is a lie based on half of a truth.

noemon wrote:I don't think that is true. Western states support Israel tacitly, the US supports it brazenly and goes a step further than others but that does not mean that this is the actual standard that defines 'support' in international relations.

America supports Israel as a jobs creation program for American workers, secondly because America is at its heart is run by Christian fundamentalists and all of their crazy ideas about the kingdom of god, etc, etc.

Other states in the world give support in various ways. If my memory serves me correctly, Germany just gave Israel a bunch of submarines.

noemon wrote:Think about this, if the Jews were as omni-powerful as people assume they are, they would not be living in conditions of permanent existential fear.

This is very true, but it must also be said, Israel lives in fear of a lot of its own delusional demons of its own creation. Such as the Palestinians, how could a people who have been under a hostile military occupation not end up hating their occupier? I remember having this discussion with a visiting Israeli who complained about how the Palestinians were the unwashed smelly masses who live in shacks and disgusting hovels. So I re-told a story I knew of from the Second World War, where the Germans had forced the Jews into a ghetto and then sent in a film crew who reported about how the Jews were filthy and smelly, living five families to a room and not bathing. The film crew conveniently overlooking the fact the ghetto was over crowded and the Germans had just recently shut off the water supply. Curiously the Israeli didn't see the parallel...
#14743040
Tailz wrote:Heck the Romans only made a fuss about the Jews when they stopped paying their taxes,


The revolt of c 66-73 CE was a quest for political independence as was the later bar Kochba revolt.

and it took a full blown homicidal Jewish rebellion that exterminated large populations of 'everyone who was not a Jew' to get the Romans to to actual walk in and put down the Jewish population.


I noticed that Schama's The Story of the Jews which is naturally very favorable to jews--for many years a prerequisite to publication it seems--omits any mention of the Kitos massacres carried out by jewish rebels.
In any event, the Romans only wanted to hold on to Judaea and restore order. It wasn't attempted genocide; nothing would've happened to the jews had they not rebelled.

America supports Israel as a jobs creation program for American workers,


In fact, the well-being of the US or any of its people isn't a significant factor in our Mideast policy at all. For many years, the US could've made far more money, in the process employing far more people by selling arms to Arabs. And it wouldn't have cost the taxpayers anything!! US backing of Israel stems mainly from the power of mainly jewish lobbying groups, and financiers. Their top priority is a foreign state; to them America essentially counts for nothing.


secondly because America is at its heart is run by Christian fundamentalists and all of their crazy ideas about the kingdom of god, etc, etc.


Yeah that's secondary.

Other states in the world give support in various ways. If my memory serves me correctly, Germany just gave Israel a bunch of submarines.


Sure. It's noteworthy, though, that virtually no other state supports Israel like the US does. Only a wealthy superpower thinks it can afford (over the course of many years) the insane luxury of backing a dinky state, potentially at the expense of relations with the rest of a vast, important region.


This is very true, but it must also be said, Israel lives in fear of a lot of its own delusional demons of its own creation. Such as the Palestinians, how could a people who have been under a hostile military occupation not end up hating their occupier? I remember having this discussion with a visiting Israeli who complained about how the Palestinians were the unwashed smelly masses who live in shacks and disgusting hovels. So I re-told a story I knew of from the Second World War, where the Germans had forced the Jews into a ghetto and then sent in a film crew who reported about how the Jews were filthy and smelly, living five families to a room and not bathing. The film crew conveniently overlooking the fact the ghetto was over crowded and the Germans had just recently shut off the water supply. Curiously the Israeli didn't see the parallel...


Thanks for posting this--not the only example of how the Israelis and their backers are a bunch of nutty hypocrites. They whine and bitch about the nuclear bomb Iran might build, and through their lobbies force the US (and by extension much of the rest of the world) to go along with threats and sanctions, while they already possess perhaps 200 nuclear bombs now :roll:
#14743367
Zionist Nationalist wrote:US alredy control the most important Arab countries


No, the US doesn't control any arab countries. It retains considerable influence over some but not control. It can't dictate the price or oil or the form of government.

and Israel contribute much more to America than countries like Syria Yemen or Iran which are out of American sphere of influence


:lol: If Iran is out of our sphere of influence, it is because the pro-Israel bunch here forced it out. Had the US had been anti-Israel from the start, practically the whole region would've always been allied to us. Economically arab states and Iran are vastly more important than Israel. The commitment of many nations to the Gulf in '91 testified to the critical importance of the region--vastly surpassing Israel.
#14747275
starman2003 wrote:No, the US doesn't control any arab countries. It retains considerable influence over some but not control. It can't dictate the price or oil or the form of government.


What rot. If the U.S doesn't like a government they can just send CIA officers to themselves overthrow it or incite an overthrow. And yes they dictate the oil price & supply, that's WHY they care about the region. If there was no oil in the M-E the US wouldn't care.

In 1990 Saddam of Iraq invaded Kuwait (had oil). At the same time there were three other occupations occurring; Israel's occupation of Lebanon & the prospective Palestinian state & Turkey's occupation of northern Cyprus. Each had occurred for years by that point. Iraq didn't get to occupy Kuwait for even a year with the US leading a coalition to drive them out by force.

WHY?

If Lebanon, the pre-state territory of Palestine & Cyprus had a major resource, etc, then logically the reaction would have been the same when those occupations began no matter what the Turkish & Israeli objections. Barely the year beforehand in 1989 the USA invaded Panama, WHY? To ensure a tighter security of Panama's Canal.

The dots are clearly connected
#14747328
redcarpet wrote:What rot. If the U.S doesn't like a government they can just send CIA officers to themselves overthrow it or incite an overthrow.



:lol: They can sure try. I believe they tried soon after Saddam took Kuwait. That didn't work. No doubt they would've tried to get rid of Ghadafy long before he fell in 2011. He had been a thorn in the side of the US and oil companies since about 1970. Removing him apparently just wasn't feasible.


And yes they dictate the oil price & supply, that's WHY they care about the region.



:lol: If they could dictate price and supply, there wouldn't have been an oil embargo in '73, nor substantially higher prices over the years. I don't see what the point of OPEC is if the US is dictating price and supply.

If there was no oil in the M-E the US wouldn't care.


Of course the US and most of the industrialized world is dependent on Mideast oil. But that doesn't mean they control it.

In 1990 Saddam of Iraq invaded Kuwait (had oil). At the same time there were three other occupations occurring; Israel's occupation of Lebanon & the prospective Palestinian state & Turkey's occupation of northern Cyprus. Each had occurred for years by that point. Iraq didn't get to occupy Kuwait for even a year with the US leading a coalition to drive them out by force.

WHY?


Sure, oil was a key motivating force. But it's worth noting that western access to oil was not the real issue. Had Iraq remained in control of Kuwait, it would've sold its oil to the West and Japan to no less a degree than a formerly independent Kuwait. What was intolerable about Iraq controlling the oil was its ambitions to become a regional hegemon, ultimately threatening Israel. At least the conservative Gulf regimes were content to just profit and "live it up." Their control is acceptable.
#14750361
Trump names David Friedman as US ambassador to Israel

Image

President-elect Donald Trump will nominate David Friedman, a prominent attorney who advised Trump on Israel during the campaign, to be the next US ambassador to Israel, the Trump transition team announced Thursday evening.

“The bond between Israel and the United States runs deep, and I will ensure there is no daylight between us when I’m President,” said President-elect Trump in the announcement. “As the United States’ Ambassador to Israel, David Friedman will maintain the special relationship between our two countries. He has been a long-time friend and trusted advisor to me. His strong relationships in Israel will form the foundation of his diplomatic mission and be a tremendous asset to our country as we strengthen the ties with our allies and strive for peace in the Middle East. Nothing is more critical than protecting the security of our citizens at home and abroad.”

“I am deeply honored and humbled by the confidence placed in me by President-elect Trump to represent the United States as its Ambassador to Israel,” David Friedman, 57, said in the statement. “I intend to work tirelessly to strengthen the unbreakable bond between our two countries and advance the cause of peace within the region, and look forward to doing this from the U.S. embassy in Israel’s eternal capital, Jerusalem.”

Friedman, who has been a columnist for right-wing media outlets, has views that have differed from previous US ambassadors to Israel. He has opposed the US imposing terms on Israel and its borders, stating that its settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem are not illegal and has also expressed openness to a one-state, bi-national solution.

The Trump transition team highlighted Friedman's legal career and philanthropy. He is a founding partner of Kasowitz, Benson, Torres & Friedman LLP, a Los Angeles-based national law firm. Friedman “has specialized in litigation and bankruptcy law” for the last 35 years, the announcement noted, adding that he is a donor to United Hatzalah of Israel, an emergency medical services volunteer organization that aids injured Israelis.


https://www.rt.com/usa/370463-trump-dav ... or-israel/

Well that didn't take long.
#14750445
i don't understand the slogan make Israel great again. Israel has never been Great in the sense of a great power. Its never been a Great Power like Spain, Russia or Great Britain. The kingdom of Solomon is a total myth. Israel's never been more than a second tier power. America on the other hand not only was a great power but was treated as one. The Pakistanis protection of Osama Bin laden shows the utter lack of respect with which America is treated.
#14750459
noir wrote:You are right the Kingdom of Israel and the Kingdom of Judea were indeed pathetic powers, but the Americans have different image about these Biblical myths.

I'm not saying they were pathetic, they were quite respectable powers and certainly had their moments of glory, just there is no obvious parallel with America's lost of respect within the world. Bizarrely America has been treated with less respect since the fall of the Soviet Union not more. Of course in Britain we have even less dignity in the way we grovel at the feet of the Saudis.
#14751525
noir wrote:Saw redcarpet gave this post. Here is one more example that Palestine during British Manda meant pre state Israelis. A pre state female soldeir in British Army. Her patch says Palestine. It's nothing to do with Arabs


I didn't, a different poster did. Scroll up
#14765220
The initial two state solution was always impractical, and became completely untenable following the hostilities of 1948. And of course, the truth is that the Arab Palestinian state was done and over with almost as quickly as it started, and not because it was destroyed or taken over by Israel; rather it was coopted back into Jordan following the hostilities in 1948 via the Jericho conference and actions taken within the year/s thereafter willingly. (sans the portion that was taken over by the Egyptian military and Israel of course) At that point in history any territories claimed by the Arab Palestinian government would be Jordanian territories either controlled by that state, occupied by Israel, or occupied by Egypt. Some states rejected this absorption of the fledgling Arab state into Jordan, but if you recognize the right of these people to self determination, and isn't that what we have been arguing for decades, then this is an open and shut case. Or at least it should have been.

There is logical discourse to be had regarding what to do with displaced Arabs from the Palestinian region to be sure, but legally these people were all residents of neighboring Arab territories by 1949. Given that, if a two state solution is the answer here, expecting Israel to cede territory to a now non-existent state seems silly at best. If there does indeed need to be a Palestinian state within the region then, given the actions of all arab nations involved, they should be at least as culpable as Israel for providing territory and fostering peace if not moreso.
#14766590
Mental gymnastics. That was just one big excuse for Israel to keep it all. Frankly I can't be bothered rebuking it :excited:

So back to the topic at hand... the issue of this discussion thread are called to abandon the two state solution. To which I asked, what next if the two state option is no longer being considered?

The Israeli's still want their Jewish state, they don't mind having politically disempowered non-Jewish minorities in the Jewish state, but they will not stand for the goyim being empowered in any way. The Palestinians want pretty much the same thing (although I'm quite certain they don't want Jews as a minority, even if politically disempowered).

The problem is the two populations are spread over the same land mass. So a single state solution, such as Israel annexing the west bank, would have to result in apartheid if Israel wants to remain a Jewish State in order to politically disempower the non-Jewish palestinians.

While if Israel only annexes the settlements, the interspersed areas of Palestinian habitation between them will again result in an apartheid style situation for those cantons.

While the option of a bi-national identity state is pretty much rejected by all parties, but who can blame them for hating each other for so many years or terrorism and collective punishment under a military occupation.
#14774686
I think the Israelis have over played their hand. In their enthusiasm for atrumps election win they have push ahead settlement expansion plans, brought up building a new settlement, enacted a bill to legalise their theift of property, and openly called for dicarding the two state peace deal. The Israelis have shown, their true insincerity towards peace negotiations.

But honestly, those of us who have been watching for a while, already knew this. Now it is just an open secret.

But to make matters worse, Israel's great hope for a Greater Israel, Trump. Just this week said the building in settlements endangers peace.

The Israeli government may have missread Trump and overplayed their hand.
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