[One Degree]

I am not attempting to justify US foreign policy, but simply trying to make a point. The complaining about the US in the Middle East is no different than Europeans complaining about the US. It was an amusing and popular topic until Trump hinted about pulling out of NATO. The Europeans all of a sudden decided the US support of NATO was absolutely necessary. The same is true of the Middle East. If the US pulls out, who is going to take it's place? Will they be preferable?

[anarchist23]

Israel has no people in the gazza strip right now, as we speak.

In the Gaza Strip the Israelis are blockading it, not allowing basic materials, such as clean water, limiting building materials and are not allowing the Palestinians to leave even for cancer treatment. Their blockade is against Palestinian Human Rights.
There are three Palestinian refugee camps in the Gaza Strip and Israel will not allow the Palestinians right of return to their homes. Rafa camp is one of them..

Rafah camp, established in 1949, is located in the south of Gaza. In the year after Rafah camp was created, thousands of refugees moved from the camp to a nearby housing project at Tel El-Sultan, making the camp almost indistinguishable from the adjacent city.

Originally home to 41,000 refugees who had fled from the hostilities of the 1948 war, Rafah is now home to more than 104,000 refugees. High population density is a major problem, with people living in crowded shelters along extremely narrow streets.

Blockade

The blockade on Gaza has made life more difficult for many refugees in the camp.

However, unemployment levels remain very high, leaving a staggering proportion of the population dependent on UNRWA’s food and cash assistance. Basic hygiene is also of great concern in the camp, where 90 per cent of the water is unfit for human consumption.

Flower economy
Export of carnations was a key element of the Rafah economy before the blockade. However, since the start of the blockade in June 2007, only a small number of truckloads of carnations have been permitted to be exported from Gaza.

School buildings

With a school population that increases by an average of 10,000 children per year and a ban on legal building materials for schools, UNRWA had to find urgent solution to accommodate students. One solution was to have some classes held in the school yard.

In Rafah, a school was built from shipping containers. Each of 15 classrooms is made from two containers welded together, with a door and windows cut out. For the school’s 453 students, the hot months are extremely hot and the rainy months are very cold due to a lack of ventilation and insulation in the steel containers.

[Rich]

I love human rights. The great thing about human rights is that they legitimise war, undermine national sovereignty and totally negate multiculturalism. So for example it is a human right that Pagans can worship at the Kaaba, enforcing this right however will involve breaking a few eggs. The other great thing about human rights is that its simply impossible to enforce all of them, for everyone, straight away, so we get to choose which human rights we prioritise. I've got to be honest with you Palestinian Muslims are not quite at the top of my human rights priority list.

[anasawad]

@One Degree
No, infact thats enitrely wrong and beyond imaginably wrong.
The US protects Europe, it doesn't bomb it nor does it keep constantly distabalizing it or stealing its resources or sponsering terrorists in it, and it sure doesn't keep an invading force in it and threaten any of its nations with war.


@layman

All true but I was confused by the "as we speak" part. The blockade is of course understandable given the weapons smuggling.

No, the blockade isn't just about weapons. It is about breaking the well of the people in Gaza, just like every other concentration camp.
The Israeli government said it it self that they want to bring "quiet".
Even Israelis here like @noir for example pretending to be so innocent and peacefull arguing that the people of Gaza should just leave and stop the trouble.
This is about expansion not about weapons or peace.

Personally, I find people overestimate countrys that abuse externally rather than internally. Take ancient chine who enslaved its own peasants to build the wall, killing millions. History seems to weirdly judge them much less harshly that the atlantic slave trade. Ditto with Mao and stalin.

I think this is only possible to explain by the human obsession with in-group/out-group dynamics.You yourself would probably always be 1000x more disgusted with one muslim killed by an american than 100 being killed by fellow muslims.

Hardly, sane people condemn all abuse internal or external. You just need to listen.
And external in a way is actually worse, because internal abuse can be solved while external brings more damage and destruction.

[One Degree]

@One Degree
No, infact thats enitrely wrong and beyond imaginably wrong.
The US protects Europe, it doesn't bomb it nor does it keep constantly distabalizing it or stealing its resources or sponsering terrorists in it, and it sure doesn't keep an invading force in it and threaten any of its nations with war.

Like I said, I was not arguing this, but what about the vacuum a US withdrawal would create? What happens then?

[layman]

Hardly, sane people condemn all abuse internal or external. You just need to listen.

This is naive. Of course people react worse when a foreign power kills a member of the in-group. Just look what happens when an american is killed abroad, an israeli killed by an arab or vice versa. The list is endless.

And external in a way is actually worse, because internal abuse can be solved while external brings more damage and destruction.

It makes more sense to be more active when there is something you can influence. Whether you can prevent or reduce external killings depends very much on the context. I am sure we would both agree that America made it less safe after 911 when its ingroup was attacked by an outgroup. This, despite its power - it was helpless to use its power properly because of emotion.

In a very different way the palestinians who are virtually powerless react the same to israeli deaths.

While the US seems quite calm about Americans killing other americans daily with firearms. It gets more complicated when you introduce race which, of course, lends more weight to my theory.

[anasawad]

If the US withdrew. Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, Yemen and several other states are already covered.
And in places like Saudi Arabia, the people of the land can rule it, i.e the Hijazi people who are its people and ruled the entire land for over a 1000 years only to be conquered by the UK and the Saud tribe from far east Najd.
While the Najdis ofcourse can rule their land just as they were before, simply now without control over other nations and thus wont be suppressing and butchering people of all sorts.

This is naive. Of course people react worse when a foreign power kills a member of the in-group. Just look what happens when an american is killed abroad, an israeli killed by an arab or vice versa. The list is endless.

They react like that due to nationalism, however in a neutral situation they'll react due to empathy and there it doesn't differ between the two.

It makes more sense to be more active when there is something you can influence. Whether you can prevent or reduce external killings depends very much on the context. I am sure we would both agree that America made it less safe after 911 when its ingroup was attacked by an outgroup. This, despite its power - it was helpless to use its power properly because of emotion.

In a very different way the palestinians who are virtually powerless react the same to israeli deaths.

While the US seems quite calm about Americans killing other americans daily with firearms. It gets more complicated when you introduce race which, of course, lends more weight to my theory.

True. First point applies.

[anarchist23]

This is a report from Human Rights Watch regarding the Gaza Strip.

Gaza Strip

In 2015, the Israel Defense Forces conducted 50 military incursions in Gaza as of November 23, according to the UN.

As of the same date, Israeli forces had killed 21 people in Gaza, including those shot during demonstrations at the border fence and those killed in air strikes, and injured more than 100. They also continued to shoot at Palestinian civilians in the “no-go” zone that Israel imposes just inside Gaza's northern and eastern borders and at fishermen who venture beyond six nautical miles from the shore—the area to which Israel restricts Gaza fishing boats.

In June, a UN commission of inquiry released a report regarding the 2014 Israel-Gaza war that found Israeli forces committed serious laws-of-war violations, including attacking residential buildings without an apparent military target, using artillery and other high explosive weapons indiscriminately in populated areas, and apparently targeting civilians not participating in hostilities.

Israel's punitive closure of the Gaza Strip, particularly the near-total blocking of outgoing goods, continued to have severe consequences for the civilian population and impeded reconstruction of the 17,000 housing units severely damaged or destroyed during the 2014 war.

Israel allowed incoming goods to Gaza that amounted to less than half of 2006 pre-closure levels. From the August 2014 ceasefire until September 2015, 2 million tons of construction material entered the coastal strip through the only functioning crossing point for goods—about 9 percent of the total need, according to the Israeli rights group Gisha. As of September, Gaza was unable to build some 250 new schools needed to adequately serve the population, according to Gisha.

and

[stephen50right]

We all know the usual bigot suspects:

They say:

Hamas and Hezbollah firing deadly rockets into Israel - that's good.

Israel responding to stop the rocket attacks - that is violating human rights.

[anarchist23]

Re: UN Declares Israel As Having World’s Worst Human Rights

Basically the Palestinians fire glorified fire works. As one can see by this comparison.
The Zionists dropping a bomb of this size on a residential area is a war crime.

[anasawad]

Wait wait wait. Bigot suspects ? Israel does casual bombardment against people, then when they respond they started it ?
Thats not bigotry alone, that bigotry mixed with a large dose of stupidity and ignorance.

[anarchist23]

Wait wait wait. Bigot suspects ? Israel does casual bombardment against people, then when they respond they started it ?
Thats not bigotry alone, that bigotry mixed with a large dose of stupidity and ignorance.

Yes this is correct. Considering that the West Bank and the Gaza Strip is controlled by the Israelis. The Palestinians don't have a standing army, no airforce or navy. It's amazing how we are led to believe that Israel is the victim.

[layman]

If the US withdrew. Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, Yemen and several other states are already covered.

The US is barely in those places now.Even when it was it had little real influence other than blowing up people it couldnt understand or barely even communicate with properly.

They react like that due to nationalism, however in a neutral situation they'll react due to empathy and there it doesn't differ between the two.

Nationalism is just a 19th century take on tribalism.

Not sure what you mean by neutral situation? Empathy exists to outgroups, even hated ones but it sends to be far less.

Basically the Palestinians fire glorified fire works. As one can see by this comparison.

This is true which supports my point. They only fire them because they want Israel to react and continue the cycle of violence - sad.

Israel does casual bombardment against people, then when they respond they started it

This is crucial to any cycle of violence - that each side thinks the other started it. Whatever you say about Israel, there is nothing casual about when it bombs.

Yes this is correct. Considering that the West Bank and the Gaza Strip is controlled by the Israelis. The Palestinians don't have a standing army, no airforce or navy. It's amazing how we are led to believe that Israel is the victim.

The gazza strip is not controlled by israel. It is controlled by hamas. A partial blockade does not equal control and if there were no dresh water, they would all be dead in 2 days.

[anasawad]

I would say invading them and annexing large portions of their land is a good way to tell Israelis started it.


If you think the word "casual" doesn't describe it then you haven't watched the news in your life.

And they get water from wells inside their lands. However the over extraction of Israelis is also drying those up.

[anarchist23]

The gazza strip is not controlled by israel. It is controlled by hamas. A partial blockade does not equal control and if there were no dresh water, they would all be dead in 2 days.

This is from Wikipedia.

Despite the 2005 Israeli disengagement from Gaza, the United Nations, international human rights organisations, and the majority of governments and legal commentators consider the territory to be still occupied by Israel....... Israel maintains direct external control over Gaza and indirect control over life within Gaza: it controls Gaza's air and maritime space, and six of Gaza's seven land crossings. It reserves the right to enter Gaza at will with its military and maintains a no-go buffer zone within the Gaza territory. Gaza is dependent on Israel for its water, electricity, telecommunications, and other

and

THE GAZA STRIP, still surrounded, besieged and controlled by Israel, has been sealed off and effectively turned into the world’s largest open-air prison.

And regarding water.

The water situation in Gaza is especially critical. About 95 percent of the water pumped into the Gaza Strip is polluted and unfit for drinking, according to the United Nations. Israel’s Operation Cast Lead military offensive that worsened groundwater pollution in Gaza’s lone aquifer, according to the Israeli human rights organization B’Tselem. Furthermore, Israel’s blockade of Gaza prevents repair to wastewater treatment facilities.

http://www.seamac.org/equalrights.htm

[Zionist Nationalist]

the blockade is there for a reason.
collective punishment you say? yes its a collective punishment. the minority suffer because of the actions of the majority (which elected hamas)

[anasawad]

The funny part is, that Israelis by adopting these arguments kinda excuse anything to be done in the future to them by any of their enemies.
Collective punishment ? sure, the minority will suffer because the majority kept electing right wing criminal governments.

[Zionist Nationalist]

We are not afraid of your empty threats.
we all know what would happen if the situation were reversed.

What the Jordanians did to the Palestinians in 1970 is a good example of how things being done when you have the upper hand

[anasawad]

We're not Jordanians.


"We're here to stay" . "We will never lose". Said every aggressor in history of mankind.

[Zionist Nationalist]

you are not Jordanians but you have the same methods

"We're here to stay" . "We will never lose". Said every aggressor in history of mankind.

you are the aggressors. you have 22 countries with another 30 countries that are backing you and tried to gang on 1 small country and failed
pretty humiliating