[Tainari88]

The Israelis are not interested in a Palestinian state existing. They want all of historic Palestine and that is evident in their policies over the decades.

The two-state solution can never exist. Sooner or later it'll be one-state with democratic rights for all. But that will be forced upon the Israelis since they've shown they are not willing to compromise at all. With the decline of the U.S. empire and rise of other world powers, this is probably something that'll happen in our lifetimes. Unless world war 3 in the region kicks off, which is the way things are looking at the moment. The U.S. and Israel vs the rest of the region, which has Russian and Chinese backing.

Skinster, if the bombing continues and the war speeds up the genocide for the Palestinians how is this going to affect the outcome for the region? Is Israel going to have an all Jewish only state with Jerusalem as its center?

I find this interesting, because if you study the Christian doctrine of Jesus of Nazareth he was rejected by the Rabbis due to not being the Messiah they were looking for. A Messiah that would include the Jews being the center of all doctrine and power. Jesus could be interpreted as rejecting an ancient form of Zionism no? All that writing about accepting outsiders, sinners, the marginalized, the lepers, the rejects of society, and above all the ones the Roman authorities never negotiated with because they were powerless.

Who were the Rabbis from the Temple in Jerusalem? Why did they crucify a Jew that was not part of the inner circle and was an upstart? The revolutionary?

The ones who want an Israel, pure, pristine, with not a single Muslim or Christian muddying up the waters of their crystalline and pure Jewish state...it is amazing how that is also an old storyline from the Holy Bible.

Again, racial purity, purity of religions and purity of ethnicity or purity of any sort in human societies is a lie. That does not exist and never can really be achieved. Humanity and its mixing of cultures has always existed. The purity myth is about intolerance for differences. If you think with some real human universality, that is modern and forward-thinking are supposed to be understanding that there are universal human rights. Respect those rights, they apply universally to all human beings who want to live in peace in this world.

This is Lauren Booth, I never heard from her before. She is very religious. She is also a reporter.

Skinster, I have always had issues with religious dogmas. From all human religions. All of them have dogmas. And they believe strongly in being in the right. Being the ones with truth. Is it really that difficult to just allow government to give one vote and one person, and allow many people of many faiths to cooperate and share power....it is so incredibly cruel and outrageous to be wanting death and oppression on the group that is not part of your own group. You got to see beyond the pristine theories of purity. It is really crazy.

[skinster]

It is not a religious war, despite some people claiming it is. Zionists follow the Talmud, not the Torah. Torah Jews oppose Israel just as Palestinians do and many join us at protests for Palestine.

This video explains some of this, and here is part of the transcript. Although I recommend you watch it all.

"You need to understand something, these are Jews who actually follow The Old Testament, what we all know as the Torah. People like Netanyahu - Zionists - don’t follow the Torah, they distort it and they follow the Talmud.

There’s a great book written by an Israeli journalist about The Mossad - that’s the Israeli intelligence service - assassinating people and he talks about how they were even assassinating Jews in Palestine back when there was no Israel, but they were trying to form one, and so you had some Jews campaigning and working against it and..they just killed them. And he named the book after a line that’s in The Talmud which says ‘Rise and kill first’, so if you think someone is a danger to you, not like a critical danger, but you’re just not sure, you rise and kill them first. Get up and kill them first. That’s the mentality. That’s Israel.

Whereas the Torah says ‘Thou shalt not kill’. Do you see the difference? And the speaker here just pointed out that distinction, that Zionists don’t follow the Torah.

And there’s people in America, Christian Zionists, who think that Israel is a firm believer in The Old Testament and that this connects them to Christianity. No, no, absolutely not!

Zionism is not based on the Torah, it’s a distortion of it. You need to understand this. I showed you the other day how Christians are treated in Jerusalem by Israelis, some of them just spit on them. There is discrimination (in Israel) against Christians just as much as there is against Muslims. You shouldn’t think of it as a religious thing. It’s not a religious issue. It’s a colonial issue.

If it’s about Jews, you have Palestinian Jews, you have Palestinian Christians and Palestinian Muslims, why don’t they fight against each other if it’s about religion? Because it’s not. It’s never been about that, ever. This is bullshit propaganda that they use to stir up the emotions of Europeans because Europeans committed genocide against Jews with the Holocaust and with this history of antisemitism in Spain. You need to know history to understand what’s going on and to see the Israelis, the Zionists, are bullshitters. They’re lying about history. They’re lying about the present and if you don’t understand history you cannot understand what’s taking place today in Gaza and in Palestine."

Video here:

I bought the book Richard Medhurst mentioned above, it should be delivered today. Seems fascinating..

[Skynet]

They are fine with Israelis doing this. The Israelis are ruled by them. The tail does not wag the dog.

I doubt this, the zionist lobby is powerfull but not ruling. In historic terms it is in Israels interess to have peace with its neighbours, The USA is a declining power and without the USA, Israel would be overruned within days.

[skinster]

I doubt this, the zionist lobby is powerfull but not ruling.

I'm saying the same thing. The Israelis and their lobbies are powerful but the U.S. is in charge, out of the two. Israel is basically the 51st colony outside of the Americas.

In historic terms it is in Israels interess to have peace with its neighbours, The USA is a declining power and without the USA, Israel would be overruned within days.

I've been saying the same too, but they are drunk on power, without thinking longterm. I suppose that's to be expected by a little-brat of a state with such a short history. The same can be said about the U.S., but it's a few centuries older than Israel.

[wat0n]

How does such peace look like?

[skinster]

A one state solution where everyone in the same land has equal rights. How do you feel about such a concept? And how come you're not living your Zionism while simply professing it online? Why don't you go live in Israel since you shill for it so much? You're no doubt aware that many actual Zionists see people like you as traitors for not moving to the "Jewish state"..

[wat0n]

I've been to Israel. If I don't move there it's because I have my own misgivings about how things work there, compared to the US and Chile. The fact settlements still exist, despite how irrational keeping them is, is a big problem as far as I'm concerned. I also don't like the dysfunctional Israeli politics.

One thing I know is that a binational state is a complete non-starter. Only a minority among both Israelis and Palestinians want a binational state. Even among one-staters, those who want an exclusionary version (either Jewish or Arab/Islamic) outnumber those wanting the binational pseudo-Western version.

That's one thing large majorities among both Israelis and Palestinians could agree on (the other being that neither side wants to turn Jerusalem into an international city like in the bipartition), if anything.

Also it's odd someone who justifies the October 7 massacre believes she has credibility in claiming to want a binational state. I call bullshit.

[Rich]

I find this interesting, because if you study the Christian doctrine of Jesus of Nazareth he was rejected by the Rabbis due to not being the Messiah they were looking for. A Messiah that would include the Jews being the center of all doctrine and power. Jesus could be interpreted as rejecting an ancient form of Zionism no? All that writing about accepting outsiders, sinners, the marginalized, the lepers, the rejects of society, and above all the ones the Roman authorities never negotiated with because they were powerless.

Who were the Rabbis from the Temple in Jerusalem? Why did they crucify a Jew that was not part of the inner circle and was an upstart? The revolutionary?

Jesus almost certainly never existed. But even if he did exist, his gospel biography is a a fiction from the end of the 1st century or early 2nd century AD. After the fall of the Temple. 2nd Temple Judaism was over. The Jews didn't get the Romans to crucify Jesus. What the Jews did do, was expel the Christians from the Synagogues. Meaning that the Christians either had to worship the Emperor or become lion food.

Skinster, if the bombing continues and the war speeds up the genocide for the Palestinians how is this going to affect the outcome for the region? Is Israel going to have an all Jewish only state with Jerusalem as its center?

The ones who want an Israel, pure, pristine, with not a single Muslim or Christian muddying up the waters of their crystalline and pure Jewish state.

This is not really the problem.

The Nazis wanted to take Germany from 99% Jew free to 100%. Not very nice for German Jews, but hardly humanity's number one problem in the nineteen thirties. The big problem was when the Nazis broke out of Germany and started trying to make the whole of Europe 100% Jew free.

Most Zionists on the other hand wanted to take Palestine from 30% Arab free to 90% Arab free.

[Skynet]

Hamas has offered a 4 point peace plan, basically demanding line 1967... But the Western Media does not report it.

[MadMonk]

Hamas has offered a 4 point peace plan, basically demanding line 1967... But the Western Media does not report it.

The Israelis are never going to sign any peace with Hamas ever, and as long as they hold civilian hostages (including foreign nationals), no one in the West will be able to stop them. Both Washington and EU capitols are pushing for a ceasefire in order to facilitate humanitarian aid, but the Israelis are having none of it.

[wat0n]

Hamas has offered a 4 point peace plan, basically demanding line 1967... But the Western Media does not report it.

They have also said they want to do October 7th a million times again.

As long as they still keep the hostages, they will have little credibility.

[Skynet]

They should release all civilans this demands Israel for a cease fire, because Israel is holding 3 Millions people of Gaza hostage.

[wat0n]

They should release all civilans this demands Israel for a cease fire, because Israel is holding 3 Millions people of Gaza hostage.

Hamas is, not Israel.

[Rich]

As long as they still keep the hostages, they will have little credibility.

Sorry but that makes no sense. Its possible that Hamas could hold the bulk of those hostages for a long a time. If Hamas can keep hold of them they could play out that leverage over an extended duration. to just give them all up in return for a cease fire would mean Hamas had gained nothing from the operation.

[wat0n]

Sorry but that makes no sense. Its possible that Hamas could hold the bulk of those hostages for a long a time. If Hamas can keep hold of them they could play out that leverage over an extended duration. to just give them all up in return for a cease fire would mean Hamas had gained nothing from the operation.

The fact it wouldn't be toppled is enough gain.

[Rich]

The fact it wouldn't be toppled is enough gain.

The great threat to Hamas is not the Israeli armed forces, but old leaders. The IRA / Sinn Fein were successful in that they bombed their way into government. It looks like going forward they will be the government. But many people have remarked, is this what Bobby Sands died for? Is this what the Hunger Strikers died for, spent years on dirty protests for? Is this what so many Provo activists made such huge sacrifices for over so many years? Of course it is not. The problem was old leaders. If an insurgency allows its leaders to get old, its almost inevitable that they will start looking to compromise. They will look to cut some kind of deal.

Hamas don't want to go that way. Once leader has fathered 2, 3, 4 sons, it is better if he gets himself killed and makes way for a younger brother, an older nephew or a cousin. Now obviously there's a balance here, some experience is desirable, but its vital that you keep bringing through fresh cadre, fresh leaders their hearts burning with hatred. And if Israel's government could be honest, which of course they can't, they would admit to, that they don't want Hamas to change.

The last thing the Israelis want is the Palestinian people giving up their so called extremism and asking for citizenship within the Israeli state.

[wat0n]

The great threat to Hamas is not the Israeli armed forces, but old leaders. The IRA / Sinn Fein were successful in that they bombed their way into government. It looks like going forward they will be the government. But many people have remarked, is this what Bobby Sands died for? Is this what the Hunger Strikers died for, spent years on dirty protests for? Is this what so many Provo activists made such huge sacrifices for over so many years? Of course it is not. The problem was old leaders. If an insurgency allows its leaders to get old, its almost inevitable that they will start looking to compromise. They will look to cut some kind of deal.

Hamas don't want to go that way. Once leader has fathered 2, 3, 4 sons, it is better if he gets himself killed and makes way for a younger brother, an older nephew or a cousin. Now obviously there's a balance here, some experience is desirable, but its vital that you keep bringing through fresh cadre, fresh leaders their hearts burning with hatred. And if Israel's government could be honest, which of course they can't, they would admit to, that they don't want Hamas to change.

The last thing the Israelis want is the Palestinian people giving up their so called extremism and asking for citizenship within the Israeli state.

Given Israel doesn't want hold onto Gaza precisely for that reason, it's unlikely that would work either.

Were Hamas to be destroyed, I would expect the international community to show it actually cares about Gaza and send peacekeepers to help the PA rule the area. Then there could be actual progress to end the conflict for good.