[noemon]

My stomach is turning thinking about the carnage.

Both here and in Ukraine.

The warmongers in Ukraine who refuse to accept defeat are evidently clear. As they are in Palestine.

You lose a war, you evacuate and move on to carry on your life elsewhere. This applies to Greeks, Armenians, Jews, but it can never apply to Muslim Palestinians.

No sir, never, ever. They should stay there and suffer so that the feelings of Mullahs of Saudi, Iran and Turkey are not butt-hurt for losing Jerusalem. They would rather keep Palestinians hostage to their politico-Islamic goals than allow the rest of the world to move on.

[skinster]

Never mind the thousands of "hostages" in Israeli dungeons who are imprisoned without charge for years and decades, or what the Israelis like to refer to as "administrative detention".

The resistance fighters took hostages precisely to exchange for their own that have been languishing in these Israeli dungeons without any charges against them. They stated "we took the young and old to exchange with our young and old". They have no intention to kill them, they just want their own innocent people back.

But people like noeman, wat0n and other apartheid fanboys seem to think the story of oppression began on Saturday, never mind that Gaza is a concentration camp that the prisoners finally broke out of and nevermind that the settlements resistance fighters took hostages from were on the border of this concentration camp belonging to people in Gaza and of course, never mind that these settlements are illegal under international laws since they sit on occupied Palestinian territory...and never mind that the settlers living within them can kill Palestinians with impunity and have done for decades while occupying Palestinians in their own land.

You are openly arguing that Jews need to give Israel back to the Palestinians. You are openly supporting an organization that openly declares that Jews must be pushed to the sea.

This again demonstrates you have no idea what you're talking about. The 45% figure I referred to is what The Balfour Agreement offered Palestinians, as their territory. Nobody is declaring anyone is pushed into the sea even though it was Palestinians literally pushed into the sea in the 1940s when European Zionist militia gangs terrorised and ethnically-cleansed Palestine on the way to make the racist state of Israel.

What I was referring to was how Palestinians should be allowed their own state (in 45% of the land) which is enshrined by international law. You seem to be into laws and shit so what's up here?

The Palestinians were offered a state (45% of the land) alongside Israel (55% of the land) but the former never got it because the latter stole it all, yes, including the part that was belonging to the Palestinians.

Even when the Palestinians asked for just 22% of the land a couple of years ago, they were denied this by Israel, because Israel is an expansionist state as I already explained to you when you ignorantly claimed something about Israel's borders, despite it not having any.

Aha, because Hamas is for a 1-state solution with equal rights for all.

Seems you must be getting your understanding of this whole conflict from the Zionist MSM, since you are regurgitating the lie that Palestinians only have Hamas as their leaders, something that is simply not true.

Palestinians, the vast majority, support a one-state solution because a two-state is impossible now (because of Israel's expansion, occupation etc.) where everyone will live equally in the land. But people like you defending Israel are okay with the apartheid state that subjugates and denies the rights of close to six million people. How savage.

On the other hand I asked you explicitly, why are you telling Ukrainians to give up since there is no point in carrying on, but you are not saying the same to Palestinians?

As I said already, the Russians in the Donbass are similar to Palestinians in Palestine, i.e., they are native to the land who have a right to self-determination. It is me being consistent, not you.

I asked you twice, twice you ignored it and I doubt you will ever reply either to me or to your own self.

I did answer it. And I answered it again because it's very easy to be consistent, unlike you who supports the fash in Israel but opposes them in Ukraine.

Yes let's be consistent and say that without the recent Hamas attack, neither of these 2 events would have transpired.

And the 260 Palestinians killed by Israel this year, before this weekend? I didn't hear you cry for them.

But I guess consistency is lost on you when you're here defending an imperialist apartheid colony in Palestine while arguing against imperialism and racism in the Donbass.

[noemon]

Skinster, you write several posts where you claim that you support the 1-state solution. You are openly supporting Hamas who has the stated objective of eradicating the Jews.
Now you say that you support the UN 2 state solution of 1947. Nevermind that Palestinians never accepted it and opted for war twice instead, which they lost. Who cares about these little inconvenient details.

You are telling Ukrainians to give up because there is not point as they will never recover their former territories.

Why don't you say the same to Palestinians? It's a simple question.

Now you have departed this debate entirely, you have switched political positions on the same page of the same thread without even thinking twice(1 or 2-state solution yoyo) and are now purely focused on insulting your interlocutors with outrage.

[skinster]

I do support one state.

You're openly supporting the imperialist apartheid colony which in actual fact is annihilating Palestinians and genociding them.

No I didn't say I support the 2-state solution, I said the opposite. I was pointing out the history where 2 states were possible but how that's not now because of the reasons I explained.

Palestinians never accepted it? Citations needed. Was that when they were offered 45% of their own country or just 22%? Good goddess, I didn't have you for someone so prone to fall for Zionist propaganda. Hilarious.

You are telling Ukrainians to give up because there is not point as they will never recover their former territories.

No, I'm saying people in Donbass have a right to self-determination on their own land.

Why don't you say the same to Palestinians? It's a simple question.

I've said it about four times now.

Now you have departed this debate entirely, you have switched political positions on the same page of the same thread without even thinking twice(1 or 2-state solution yoyo) and are now purely focused on insulting your interlocutors with outrage.

No, it's you who can't debate because you're ignorant on this topic while supporting imperialism, racism, settler-colonialism and fascism. Get to Slava Ukraini'ing next since that'll show your consistency.

[noemon]

I do support one state.

You're openly supporting the imperialist apartheid colony which in actual fact is annihilating Palestinians and genociding them.

I'm not supporting anybody neither here nor in Ukraine/Russia. I am saying 2 people's have fought, 1,2 wars plus the intafadas, 4 or 5 wars already perhaps over the past 60 years. Israel has won them all, at which point do the Muslims come to terms with this defeat?

I am also saying that I came to terms with our Greek defeat and our loss of our home and property in Cappadokia. I am not organizing terror abductions in Turkey to reclaim my mother's property. Should I? perhaps according to you? Why can't the Muslims of Palestine come to terms with defeat?

I am saying that Ukrainians lost the war and now they need to sue for peace by giving up these territories to Russia so that they do not waste anymore lives for nothing. You are saying the exact same thing to them. Why do you not repeat this to the Palestinians but prefer to keep them there in agony until you achieve your objectives? Which you are also refusing to publish, though they do seep through the seams.

No I didn't say I support the 2-state solution, I said the opposite. I was pointing out the history where 2 states were possible but how that's not now because of the reasons I explained.

Palestinians never accepted it? Citations needed. Was that when they were offered 45% of their own country or just 22%? Good goddess, I didn't have you for someone so prone to fall for Zionist propaganda. Hilarious.

Okay, so you have now reverted to denying easily verifiable reality:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Na ... _Palestine

Arab leaders and governments rejected the plan of partition in the resolution and indicated that they would reject any other plan of partition.[9] The Arab states' delegations declared immediately after the vote for partition that they would not be bound by the decision, and walked out accompanied by the Indian and Pakistani delegates.[116]

On 16 February 1948, the UN Palestine Commission reported to the Security Council that: "Powerful Arab interests, both inside and outside Palestine, are defying the resolution of the General Assembly and are engaged in a deliberate effort to alter by force the settlement envisaged therein."[118]

Arab states
A few weeks after UNSCOP released its report, Azzam Pasha, the General Secretary of the Arab League, told an Egyptian newspaper "Personally I hope the Jews do not force us into this war because it will be a war of elimination and it will be a dangerous massacre which history will record similarly to the Mongol massacre or the wars of the Crusades."[119] (This statement from October 1947 has often been incorrectly reported as having been made much later on 15 May 1948.)[120] Azzam told Alec Kirkbride "We will sweep them [the Jews] into the sea." Syrian president Shukri al-Quwatli told his people: "We shall eradicate Zionism."[121]

King Farouk of Egypt told the American ambassador to Egypt that in the long run the Arabs would soundly defeat the Jews and drive them out of Palestine.[122]

No, I'm saying people in Donbass have a right to self-determination on their own land.

But not the Israelis of Israel.

No, it's you who can't debate because you're ignorant on this topic while supporting imperialism, racism, settler-colonialism and fascism. Get to Slava Ukraini'ing next since that'll show your consistency.

First of all, you need to clarify in your own person, on what is your favored resolution because you are swinging like a pendulum so you do not have to give further details:

1) 2-states
2) 1 State for all
3) A Palestinian State run by Hamas that you are openly cheering for?

[wat0n]

Your own source shows the percentage of Jews in Palestine during the ethnic cleansing of Palestine for a couple of years before 1948 which made them less than a third of the population. My point stands: the vast majority are not natives to Palestine. Palestinians, however, are.

The majority of present-day Israelis were born there and not immigrants whether you like it or not.

And the twisting of debate continues. The question of the demographics was a separate debate with noeman that you butted into. You are aware that people can simply scroll up to see how full of shit you are?

Also, spare the sanctimony of "justifying massacres" when you've defended the exact same on Palestine every time they've happened and ignore the much greater massacre on Gaza today. Also, lol at you accusing me of bigotry when you defend the apartheid(racist) state. Zionists are a hilarious bunch.

Your nonsense can only be described as bigotry, the rest are the excuses. Back in the 1930s and 1940s they would say Jews controlled banking or some nonsense like that, now they appeal to bullshit like the demographics of the region a century ago.

wat0n tried to compare Muslim immigration in Europe to Zionist colonialism in Palestine. Name one European country that is analogous to Israel.

How far back in time do you want to go to?

Bosnia is the direct result of Islamic conquest and colonialism. That doesn't mean Europeans should go house by house massacring Bosnian Muslims.

If you want to push this, most of the Middle East itself was colonized by Islam. The Qu'ran was spread by the sword, a historical fact some ancient non-Muslim communities resent to this day. Indeed, it's precisely because of this fact that islamists like Hamas and ISIS frame their struggle as one of armed conquest and the reestablishment of the Caliphate.

@Fasces killing civilians who are being used as human shields is not the same as carrying a massacre out like Hamas did. There is no moral equivalence here.

[skinster]

^ apartheid fanboys calling me a bigot is never not funny.

I'm not supporting anybody

Yes, you are. You're openly supporting the imperialist apartheid colony which in carpet-bombing Gaza RIGHT NOW. Way to pick your timing to come out in defence of the Zionist entity, as utterly gross as it is.

I am saying 2 people's have fought, 1,2 wars plus the intafadas, 4 or 5 wars already perhaps over the past 60 years. Israel has won them all, at which point do the Muslims come to terms with this defeat?

This again demonstrates how you have no idea what you're talking about. How exactly are Palestinians not accepting defeat? By existing?

I am saying that Ukrainians lost the war and now they need to sue for peace by giving up these territories to Russia. You are saying the exact same thing.

I'm saying Russians in Donbass who are natives of the land have a right to self-determination just like the natives of Palestine do.

And in case your understanding of this issue didn't go beyond Wikipedia, the world has already agreed in law that Palestinians have a right to their own state alongside Israel. Why do you think all the morons in the West keep saying they support a two state solution? It's only you and rabid Zionists demanding Palestinians accept defeat, as if they are doing anything else aside from existing.

Why do you not repeat this to the Palestinians but prefer to keep them there in agony until you achieve your objectives?

Where the hell do you think they should go? And how exactly does this happen when millions are in a prison camp and millions more live under military occupation that restricts their travel? Seriously, you have no idea what you're talking about.

Okay so you have now reverted to denying easily verifiable reality:

It actually explains why you think you do by posting Wikipedia on this topic. I guess you missed that time when Zionists talked about how they use Wikipedia to sell Zionist propaganda.


This shit is getting clownish.

But not the Israelis of Israel.

And the clown show continues. The Israelis already have their own state and self-determination and I've already stated this, stop being foolish and making me repeat myself. Maybe try reading before running your mouth.

First of all, you need to clarify in your own person, on what is your favored resolution because you are swinging like a pendulum so you do not have to give further details:

I already said one state with equal rights for all.

As for Hamas, it was Israel that pushed for Hamas's rise, which I've shared info on already in this thread and WikiLeaks has reported on. The Zionists love Hamas because it helps dehumanise Palestinians, just as you do by referring to the Palestinian people as "Hamas".

Maybe stop getting your info from Wikipedia because you're repeatedly embarrassing yourself and making me experience embarrassment on your behalf too. Even a lot of Zionist propaganda online would be better than that shit.

[noemon]

^ apartheid fanboys calling me a bigot is never not funny.

Yes, you are. You're openly supporting the imperialist apartheid colony which in carpet-bombing Gaza RIGHT NOW. Way to pick your timing to come out in defence of the Zionist entity, as utterly gross as it is.

Once again, despite this being the result of your own feelings rather than reality, you opt for personal outrage. Despite the fact that you are openly cheering for Hamas while I am not and never have openly cheered for Israel. Stating facts on the ground is not cheering for anybody as you will see later below.

This again demonstrates how you have no idea what you're talking about. How exactly are Palestinians not accepting defeat? By existing?

For the 10th time around this spammy circle...

Their citizenship status is a matter for their own authorities(Turkish, Egyptian & Jordanian, or whoever else has been added today as a new benefactor), not anyone else's. Turkey, Egypt, and Jordan have a legal responsibility to accommodate their own citizens and people. With Turkish passports for example, Palestinians can legally travel inside Israel even. Today, so do Saudi & Qatar for becoming added patrons quite openly for the past few decades. When Palestinians are recognized as a people by their own authorities, neither Israel nor anyone else can do anything about it other than protest in outrage.

It is no rocket science for people to address their citizenship concerns with their recognized legal authorities. I would say, ask for British passports too, but they do not recognise this colonial power, so that is not possible.

I'm saying Russians in Donbass who are natives of the land have a right to self-determination just like the natives of Palestine do.

1) Israelis have the same rights and are natives too.
2) What about Russians in Odessa? Odessa is 90% Russian. Should this war proceed until Russia violently recovers Odessa? This is the only way for the Russians in Odessa to actualize self-determination as it is also the only way for the Palestinians to actualize it in Israel and Jerusalem.
3) The natives of Palestine have a right to self-determine in land they stand on, noone has the right to property in land that they do not stand on. Otherwise, you are obviously openly arguing for war to recover the land first and then self-determine.
4) The Cappadokian, Pontian, Politan, Cypriot, and Anatolian Greeks just to name a few want self-determination too, but the only way to actualize it is to declare war on Turkey and maintain it until this happens. Is that what you are advising us to do?

And in case your understanding of this issue didn't go beyond Wikipedia, the world has already agreed in law that Palestinians have a right to their own state alongside Israel. Why do you think all the morons in the West keep saying they support a two state solution? It's only you and rabid Zionists demanding Palestinians accept defeat, as if they are doing anything else aside from existing.

As I said in the Russian thread regarding Crimea about Soviet bureaucracy gifting things as if it was theirs, bureaucracy does not undermine the reality on the ground. This again is not a moral or taking sides statement, it is simply stating the obvious. You have authority over the things that you actually exercise authority over. Israel exercises authority over this strip of land, just like Russia is exercising authority over Crimea and Donbass and just like Azerbaijan and Turkey are exercising authority over Artsakh, TRNC, North Syria, Kurdistan, etcetera.

It has nothing to do with morality or support for any of these actors, but with reality. Does this mean I support Turkey? Of course not.

And the clown show continues. The Israelis already have their own state and self-determination and I've already stated this, stop being foolish and making me repeat myself. Maybe try reading before running your mouth.

But a state that neither you nor Hamas recognises.

I already said one state with equal rights for all.

And how do you achieve this against the wishes of the Jewish people and state?

Whether you admit to it or not the reality is that you are arguing for eternal war until your Palestinian objectives are achieved.
I am saying, what is the easiest possible way to get these people in a safe house with a job, a car, and the quiet enjoyment of life?
Give them Turkish, Qatari and Saudi passports and full citizen rights. They can then travel, they can enjoy mega petrol benefits and they can be safe and happy. Do it and move on. Give them passports and let them join in the thriving economies of Muslim countries. Israel is surrounded by Muslim countries that can revisit the matter later anyway. So why the whole torture chamber? This has never happened before for a people to be abandoned in such a way by their own legacy authorities.

[QatzelOk]

Picking on 1492 is anti European racism. Most Amerindians were not living in peace prior to 1492.

So what you're suggesting here is that "it's okay to genocide people that have been on the aggressor side of any war."

An interesting opinion. Hope you have a bomb shelter handy.

[skinster]

Once again, despite this being the result of your own feelings rather than reality, you opt for personal outrage.

Nope, I've described you accurately. You're not the first Zionist I've come across. The "liberal Zionists" died out over a decade ago, but that seems to be lost on you since you started paying attention when the oppressed fought back this weekend.

Despite the fact that you are openly cheering for Hamas while I am not and never have openly cheered for Israel. Stating facts on the ground is not cheering for anybody as you will see later below.

I cheer on Palestinians who foolish Zionists refer to as "Hamas" only in an attempt to easily dehumanise them.

You didn't state any facts since you seem quite clueless about the history of the Zionist entity to the current point, which I've had to explain to you. More of your cluelessness:

It is no rocket science for people to address their citizenship concerns with their recognized legal authorities. I would say, ask for British passports too, but they do not recognise this colonial power, so that is not possible.

1) Israelis have the same rights and are natives too.

Israelis already have rights and state too, one much larger than what was offered to them by the Brits.

Meanwhile, a million Palestinians in "Israel proper" have some rights, but over 65 laws that discriminate against them. Palestinians in the West Bank have little to no rights while Israelis settlers in their land in that region are offered privileges denied to Palestinians, e.g. carrying guns and killing Palestinians with impunity while offered full support by the Israeli military that occupies the land. And Palestinians in Gaza have no rights because Gaza is a prison camp of 2.3 million people with over a million children, which you have no problem with. A million children borderline starved, denied electricity and water in a concentration camp is not violence according to the most savage of humans.

3) The natives of Palestine have a right to self-determine in land they stand on,

Again, displaying your ignorance. Palestinians are calling for self-determination in the territory that international law defines as a Palestinian state (West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza) which Israelis have no right to. Israelis have denied Palestinians their legal right to their own state and you're here pretending the Israelis are the victims in this story.

Israel exercises authority over this strip of land, just like Russia is exercising authority over Crimea and Donbass and just like Azerbaijan and Turkey are exercising authority over Artsakh, TRNC, North Syria, Kurdistan, etcetera.

Crimea and Donbass voted to be a part of Russia. Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem are under a military occupation, blockade and massive prison and have not been able to vote for their self-determination. Stop with your silly comparisons that don't apply at all. I'm going to ignore them all from now on since they're beyond retarded comparisons.

But a state that neither you nor Hamas recognises.

Who cares if it's recognised, it exists regardless of any of our opinion or "recognition". Imagine pushing this shit in 2023, even the Israelis stopped demanding their "right to exist", as if they don't. The fucking absurdities here.

And how do you achieve this against the wishes of the Jewish people and state?

This would be a beneficial option for the Israelis given their future in the region will not be bright otherwise, given their constant alienation of everyone in the region and given the decline of the U.S. Empire that props up their apartheid colony in the U.S and given their own civil war within Israel proper.

But no, let's do what you suggest, Israel continue its brutality against six million of its inhabitants, occupy and imprison them, massacre them intermittently and then start crying when the oppressed fight back, as they did this weekend.

Whether you admit to it or not the reality is that you are arguing for eternal war until your Palestinian objectives are achieved.

No, that's you and your reading comprehension skills continue to lack with every post. I support one state with equal rights for all, not racist-Zionist objectives of stealing the entire land, including the Palestinian state that international law has never denied them, but you and your fellow Zionists think you're above that and have claim to Palestinian territory. You don't, neither morally or legally.

I am saying, what is the easiest possible way to get these people in a safe house with a job, a car, and the quiet enjoyment of life? Give them Turkish, Qatari and Saudi passports and full citizen rights. They can then travel, they can enjoy mega petrol benefits and they can be safe and happy. Do it and move on. Give them passports and let them join in the thriving economies of Muslim countries. Israel is surrounded by Muslim countries that can revisit the matter later anyway. So why the whole torture chamber? This has never happened before for a people to be abandoned in such a way by their own legacy authorities.

Palestinians have a right to self-determination, regardless what racist Zionists think. You might have rolled over while people stole your homes and land but I would be amongst the resistance there no matter what, and will always be until Palestine is free. Just like the vast majority of the people of the world. There's a reason why people are protesting for Palestine this week and will continue to this weekend and it's not because we're racists, but we demand justice for Palestinians.

[noemon]

Nope, I've described you accurately. You're not the first Zionist I've come across. The "liberal Zionists" died out over a decade ago, but that seems to be lost on you since you started paying attention when the oppressed fought back this weekend.

I cheer on Palestinians who foolish Zionists refer to as "Hamas" only in an attempt to easily dehumanise them.

You didn't state any facts since you seem quite clueless about the history of the Zionist entity to the current point, which I've had to explain to you. More of your cluelessness:

You ought to stop these personal attacks. They are both irrelevant and untrue. I was here on this forum for Palestine way before you and at a way more advanced level than simply shouting slogans and cheering for Hamas.

You cheer for Palestinians for sure but in this instance, you cheered for the Hamas attack in particular. Perhaps you should not be throwing stones when you are the one advocating for violence both for the particular Hamas incident but also for the future trajectory of this issue because you insist on magical "self-determination" and even refuse to acknowledge that your goal of Palestinian self-determination means perpetual war forever until Israel is defeated.

Israelis already have rights and state too, one much larger than what was offered to them by the Brits.

If it were up to you and the people that committed this attack, they wouldn't. They know this and so they abide by this as every other person.

Again, displaying your ignorance. Palestinians are calling for self-determination in the territory that international law defines as a Palestinian state (West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza) which Israelis have no right to. Israelis have denied Palestinians their legal right to their own state and you're here pretending the Israelis are the victims in this story.

Israelis have fought several Arab coalitions and are still at war with several Arab and Iranian coalitions who refuse to accept its existence.

Almost the entire Muslim world has been proactively fighting Israel for over 70 years at one time or another.

Crimea and Donbass voted to be a part of Russia. Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem are under a military occupation, blockade and massive prison and have not been able to vote for their self-determination. Stop with your silly comparisons that don't apply at all. I'm going to ignore them all from now on since they're beyond retarded comparisons.
Who cares if it's recognised, it exists regardless of any of our opinion or "recognition". Imagine pushing this shit in 2023, even the Israelis stopped demanding their "right to exist", as if they don't. The fucking absurdities here.

These are absurdities that make no sense indeed, they are barely legible.

How do you actualise Palestinian self-determination skinster?

You can ignore reality but many people want to self-determine in their historical homelands and the only way to achieve it is through perpetual war. Should we all go to perpetual war?

Palestinians have a right to self-determination, regardless what racist Zionists think. You might have rolled over while people stole your homes and land but I would be amongst the resistance there no matter what, and will always be until Palestine is free. Just like the vast majority of the people of the world. There's a reason why people are protesting for Palestine this weekend and will continue to this weekend and it's not because we're racists, but we demand justice for Palestinians.

Right, so we're cowards for letting bygones be bygones, signing peace terms, and moving on with our lives.

You'd rather all self-determination projects get activated through any means necessary.

I sincerely do not see the logic behind tolerating and maintaining this kind of position of the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank.

At one point you see the obvious Israeli treatment, at another, you expect Israel to accommodate Palestinians.

[Skynet]

So what you're suggesting here is that "it's okay to genocide people that have been on the aggressor side of any war."

An interesting opinion. Hope you have a bomb shelter handy.

Who is right the Natives or the Cowboy Settlers...

I am pro-Natives.

When the Palestinians would not ressist, they would be cleansed from their land.

[Rich]

So what's Hamas's game plan here?

Well so first I think it might be helpful to ask what the Liberal establishment's game plan for the Palestinians was? I think it can best be summed up by the slogan "Demography is Destiny!". That's what the Liberal establishment sold Irish nationalists in Northern Ireland. Don't mess with the Provos, just be patient and demography will give you a United Ireland. "Demography is Destiny!" kinda worked in South Africa higher Black birth rates, immigration and the insatiable lust of business for more labour overwhelmed the Afrikaana Nationalist regime. it seems strange now, but at one time Israeli business was committed to flooding Israel with Arab labour.

However in Israel the Jews have beaten the Muslims at their own game. The Jews are growing faster then the Muslims and things may be even worse than they appear as the Palestinian authorities like to exaggerate their numbers to get more aid. The Orthodox have been the key to this Jewish advance. Now some people might think the Hamas terror is just giving the Zionists a taste of their own medicine. A taste of how the Zionists "cleansed" Israel of the bulk of its Arab population. But maybe there is more to this than just revenge. Maybe Hamas are trying to push significant numbers of Jews to leave Israel and discourage Jews from immigrating into Israel. But I doubt Hamas terror is going to scare off the Orthodox you say. And that maybe the point. I have to say I'm quite amused by all this wailing and nashing of teeth over Netanyahu by western Liberals and establishment Conservatives. The way intra Jewish demographic balance in Israel is going, Netanyahu is the last of your problems.

However the problem with the Orthodox goes way beyond their lack of interest in Liberal sensibilities or virtue signalling to the "International Community". The problem is that so many of the Orthodox neither want to work nor fight. Israel has been so successful because its had Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. High tech uber liberals and arch conservatives. The balance may be being lost. I could be wrong but possibly Hamas have identified this as Israel's weakness and they are trying to help push Israel's Jewish demography into an even more unbalanced and unsustainable demography

[skinster]

You ought to stop these personal attacks.

Calling you a Zionist defender of a racist settler-colony is not a personal attack, it's an observation based on your posts and reality.

They are both irrelevant and untrue. I was here on this forum for Palestine way before you and at a way more advanced level than simply shouting slogans and cheering for Hamas.

They are true and relevant. If you don't like them, don't defend the indefensible. And if true about your so-called advanced level of knowledge regarding Palestine, how come I have to complete correcting you on the most basic of things that anyone with advanced knowledge wouldn't need correcting on? Spare me..

You cheer for Palestinians for sure but in this instance, you cheered for the Hamas attack in particular.

Just because gross Zionists use the language of dehumanisation as referring to Palestinians simply as "Hamas", doesn't mean I go along with. I've made it clear repeatedly that this is not just Hamas but gross Zionists continue to claim that alongside all the racist media because it helps to dehumanise Palestinians and justify their ongoing slaughter.

Having made a thread about all the different resistance factions (The Lions' Den) should make clear that it is not just "Hamas Hamas Hamas" as the ignorant claim, but keep reguritating Zionist propaganda.

Perhaps you should not be throwing stones when you are the one advocating for violence both for the particular Hamas incident but also for the future trajectory of this issue because you insist on magical "self-determination" and even refuse to acknowledge that your goal of Palestinian self-determination means perpetual war forever until Israel is defeated.

I don't refer to the resistance as "violence" like you, as if those occupied are on parity with those who've oppressed and caged them up for decades. The 'both-sides' crap Zionists regurgitate is not something I align with at all.

Lmao, it's you who supports perpetual war and I explained that to you in my last post about how I support a one-state solution with equal rights whereas you expect Palestinians to be defeated, somehow, despite explaining how exactly you expect them to accept defeat while they're imprisoned and militarily occupied. Dafuq is that?

I said if Israel carries on in this matter than it won't have the upper hand given the many reasons I explained, such as the Empire in decline that props it up and its increasing alienation in the region and the fact that two main rising powers like China and Russiahave come out saying Palestinians deserve their own state.

Saying that Israelis should live with Palestinians where all have equal rights is not an extremist position, it's called democracy. What's extremist is your support of British/American imperialism via its apartheid colony atop Palestine and its settler-colonialism.

The latter of which, I expect to decrease after this weekend...

Your Zionism though is hilarious because one thing that's so common about Zionists is the never-ending projection of its own crimes and thinking onto others, which you're now doing to me, even though you can't quote me when you respond to me as you haven't repeatedly, instead you quote a sentence and then write a bunch of dumb shit in response that has nothing to do with what I said, projecting your own thoughts onto me.

If you want me to be polite, quote me when you have your not insightful at all opinions and if you're accusing me of something, quote where I said what I said that justifies the accusation because as of now, you're being about as disingenuous as that other gross Zionist here that has a history of making same nonsense posts.

If it were up to you and the people that committed this attack, they wouldn't. They know this and so they abide by this as every other person.

This is another example of your crap. You're responding to me informing you that Israel has rights and self-determination and their own state after you were all "but what about Israel?" . Now that I explained Israel has a state and Israelis have rights, you're saying some crap about your opinion about what would happen if it were up to me when who gives a fuck about this opinion of yours considering this isn't about me or you and what we want, but a political debate about the situation at hand. I really didn't expect this level of weakness in defence of Zionism coming from you, but damn..

The weakness of your "arguments" suggests you should just sit this out rather than defending the apartheid colony, very poorly, I might add.

Israelis have fought several Arab coalitions and are still at war with several Arab and Iranian coalitions who refuse to accept its existence.

Again, a weird response to me saying Palestinians have a legal right to their own state that is enshrined by international law, in Gaza, East Jerusalem and the West Bank. Would you like to respond to that rather than getting all wat0n-y and twisting the conversation to something about Iran?

Almost the entire Muslim world has been proactively fighting Israel for over 70 years at one time or another.

The shit coming out of you.

I'm just going to laugh at any of your deflections now alongside your citation-free wild claims like this because you're revealing yourself to be entirely unserious and a time-waster who can't handle what I say, so make up shit to deflect, Mr Advanced on Palestine Dude.

How do you actualise Palestinian self-determination skinster?

End the military occupation of West Bank and East Jerusalem. End the imprisonment and blockade on Gaza. Allow Palestinians their own state and their basic human rights that you and I get to enjoy.

[noemon]

Calling you a Zionist defender of a racist settler-colony is not a personal attack, it's an observation based on your posts and reality.

It's just outrage for showing how inconsistent you actually are. Some people(Ukranians) should lay down their arms according to you while others must continue fighting until they recover their homeland even when their ability is far more diminished.

They are true and relevant. If you don't like them, don't defend the indefensible. And if true about your so-called advanced level of knowledge regarding Palestine, how come I have to complete correcting you on the most basic of things that anyone with advanced knowledge wouldn't need correcting on? Spare me..

Spare me the insults and the outrage, you already know about me and Palestine and you are having difficulties accepting reality.

Just because gross Zionists use the language of dehumanisation as referring to Palestinians simply as "Hamas", doesn't mean I go along with. I've made it clear repeatedly that this is not just Hamas but gross Zionists continue to claim that alongside all the racist media because it helps to dehumanise Palestinians and justify their ongoing slaughter.

Having made a thread about all the different resistance factions (The Lions' Den) should make clear that it is not just "Hamas Hamas Hamas" as the ignorant claim, but keep reguritating Zionist propaganda.

It's not gross zionists that came here cheering for the Hamas attack as it was transpiring, that was you.

I don't refer to the resistance as "violence" like you, as if those occupied are on parity with those who've oppressed and caged them up for decades. The 'both-sides' crap Zionists regurgitate is not something I align with at all.

Lmao, it's you who supports perpetual war and I explained that to you in my last post about how I support a one-state solution with equal rights whereas you expect Palestinians to be defeated, somehow, despite explaining how exactly you expect them to accept defeat while they're imprisoned and militarily occupied. Dafuq is that?

I said if Israel carries on in this matter than it won't have the upper hand given the many reasons I explained, such as the Empire in decline that props it up and its increasing alienation in the region and the fact that two main rising powers like China and Russiahave come out saying Palestinians deserve their own state.

Saying that Israelis should live with Palestinians where all have equal rights is not an extremist position, it's called democracy. What's extremist is your support of British/American imperialism via its apartheid colony atop Palestine and its settler-colonialism.

The latter of which, I expect to decrease after this weekend...

Your Zionism though is hilarious because one thing that's so common about Zionists is the never-ending projection of its own crimes and thinking onto others, which you're now doing to me, even though you can't quote me when you respond to me as you haven't repeatedly, instead you quote a sentence and then write a bunch of dumb shit in response that has nothing to do with what I said, projecting your own thoughts onto me.

You are expecting Israel to accommodate Palestinians after knowing what Israeli policy and methods are.

You 're either totally deluded or just simply get off from this issue.

At some point, you genuinely need to ask yourself about the welfare & future of these people.

End the military occupation of West Bank and East Jerusalem. End the imprisonment and blockade on Gaza. Allow Palestinians their own state and their basic human rights that you and I get to enjoy.

Sure, we've said this before but it's not ending and no matter how many times we 've said it, it's obvious that this is exactly what is not happening.

These people need to be taken to safety and security.

[skinster]

It's just outrage for showing how inconsistent you actually are. Some people(Ukranians) should lay down their arms according to you while others must continue fighting until they recover their homeland even when their ability is far more diminished.

Ukrainians don't have a right to the Donbass since it seceded in a vote after their culture got attacked in law and fascists started bombing them. If you're repeatedly weakly going to claim analogy with the people of the Donbass with Palestinians, then if Palestinians did what the people of Donbass did, I'd be fully in support of them. As I said, it is ME who is being consistent with my support of Russians in the Donbass as I am of Palestinians in Palestine whereas you support one and not the other.

Spare me the insults and the outrage, you already know about me and Palestine and you are having difficulties accepting reality.

It's not insulting to say you don't know what you're talking about, when I have to repeatedly correct your lack of knowledge here. What's insulting is having to make me correct you and then have you still act like you know more than you do. You don't.

You are expecting Israel to accommodate Palestinians after knowing what Israeli policy and methods are.

No, I expect Palestinians to have a right to self-determination and their own state, as enshrined by international law, again you respond to what I have just said with dumb posts like this, way to out yourself.

You 're either totally deluded or just simply get off from this issue.

At some point, you genuinely need to ask yourself about the welfare & future of these people.

Sure, we've said this before but it's not ending and no matter how many times we 've said it, it's obvious that this is exactly what is not happening.

These people need to be taken to safety and security.

So you ask how Palestinians actualise self-determination, I explain how with basic stuff like ending the occupation and this is how you respond?

Anyway, I'm done wasting time with you. I'll file you under the same category as wat0n because that's what you are, disingenuous and clueless.

[noemon]

Ukrainians don't have a right to the Donbass since it seceded in a vote after their culture got attacked in law and fascists started bombing them. If you're repeatedly weakly going to claim analogy with the people of the Donbass with Palestinians, then if Palestinians did what the people of Donbass did, I'd be fully in support of them. As I said, it is ME who is being consistent with my support of Russians in the Donbass as I am of Palestinians in Palestine whereas you support one and not the other.

Right, Ukrainians do not have the right to their official territories nor to several areas currently occupied outside Donbass and Crimea because it suits your fantasy.

No, you 're not and associating the largest country on earth with Palestine is quite out there.

It's not insulting to say you don't know what you're talking about, when I have to repeatedly correct your lack of knowledge here. What's insulting is having to make me correct you and then have you still act like you know more than you do. You don't.

No, I expect Palestinians to have a right to self-determination and their own state, as enshrined by international law, again you respond to what I have just said with dumb posts like this, way to out yourself.

So you ask how Palestinians actualise self-determination, I explain how with basic stuff like ending the occupation and this is how you respond?
Anyway, I'm done wasting time with you. I'll file you under the same category as wat0n because that's what you are, disingenuous and clueless.

You are expecting Israel to accommodate Palestinians after knowing what Israeli policy and methods are. Also more smileys than text.

[skinster]

Who is right?

Palestine is right if justice and human rights is what we're talking about. Israel is right if we're going with the might is right bullshit.