[noemon]

Actually, most of them are and most have two passports.

Here Empire Files spoke to Israelis in Jerusalem. You will note most have American or European accents.

This does not show that they are foreigners in Israel. They are not. This is not a good or proper argument.

Over the weekend Ben-Gurion airport was jam-packed with Israelis fighting with each other in an attempt to leave, to go back to where they came from.

5000 Israeli Greeks departed from Greece in a single weekend to go fight for their country. Average people. You are going down the litwin road type of argument.

Palestinians on the other hand, the vast majority don't have passports and nor does Israel allow them to leave.

Palestinians should be addressing their concerns to the Muslim authorities to obtain passports and exit.

All three states have millions of Palestinian refugees. Jordan has two million alone.

They should take them all and not as refugees but as citizens, as Turkey just did to Armenia and Syria. They are their legal responsibility as a people, their grandparents or parents held Ottoman/Turkish passports and deeds.

[wat0n]

I mean quite obviously Hamas and Fatah would never torture or kill Palestinians without trial, right?

[skinster]

This does not show that they are foreigners in Israel. They are not. This is not a good or proper argument.

Actually, it does, and yes it is. The vast majority of Israelis are European, American and Russian. Amongst the Sephardi Jews, they are from other middle eastern countries. There are also some black Jews from Ethiopia and Erithrea, but they get the same amount of racist abuse from Israelis as Palestinians do, so perhaps we should call the black Jews Palestinians...

5000 Israeli Greeks departed from Greece in a single weekend to go fight for their country. Average people. You are going down the litwin road type of argument.

I said whatever was done was bad too, I don't know what a litwin road here is but I do know that you are bizarrely supporting the apartheid state against its natives. In 2023, no less..

Palestinians should be addressing their concerns to the Muslim authorities to obtain passports and exit.

Palestinians should have a right to live in freedom and dignity in their own land.

They should take them all and not as refugees but as citizens, as Turkey just did to Armenia and Syria. They are their legal responsibility as a people.

Nah.

Didn't have you for someone who supports an imperialist British and American colony atop Palestine, but people are full of surprises... Hopefully you'll get to the correct position like you did on Ukraine, sooner or later.

[noemon]

Actually, it does, and yes it is. The vast majority of Israelis are European, American and Russian. Amongst the Sephardi Jews, they are from other middle eastern countries. There are also some black Jews from Ethiopia and Erithrea, but they get the same amount of racist abuse from Israelis as Palestinians do, so perhaps we should call the black Jews Palestinians...

No skinster, it does not make Israelis foreign in Israel. As it does not make the Russians foreign in Crimea.

I said whatever was done was bad too, I don't know what a litwin road here is but I do know that you are bizarrely supporting the apartheid state against its natives. In 2023, no less..

No, I was addressing the part where you were implying that Israelis are cowards fleeing their country and hence implying that they are foreigners who don't deserve it.

This is mega-troll type of stuff of litwin's type. It should not be bizarre to you.

Palestinians should have a right to live in freedom and dignity in their own land.

Armenians do not have that right in Stepanakert today. Why are Palestinians more special than Armenians?

They should take them all and not as refugees but as citizens, as Turkey just did to Armenia and Syria. They are their legal responsibility as a people.

Nah.

Why not? Why not be a Turkish person living in Turkey? They have been Ottoman/Turkish subjects with Ottoman title deeds and passports as long as they remember. This is what Turkey demands in all its expansion projects, the complete removal of Greeks from Cyprus, Armenians from Artsakh, Kurds from Syria & Turkey, and it also refuses to pay any kind of compensation to these people it is pro-actively removing.

Why are all officially Ottoman/Turkish Palestinians different than all these people?

[skinster]

Israeli Jew whose dad was a general in the 1967 war talks about how Palestine belongs to Palestinians, and on the history of the so-called conflict. @Tainari88, you may be interested in this.

No skinster, it does not make Israelis foreign in Israel. As it does not make the Russians foreign in Crimea.

This is a silly analogy because the Russians in Crimea were born and raised there whereas the Israelis in Palestine are mainly from Europe, the U.S., Russia and other middle eastern countries. They are foreign to Palestine. The natives are not.

No, I was addressing the part where you were implying that Israelis are cowards fleeing their country and hence implying that they are foreigners who don't deserve it.

Actually, the point was they were leaving to go back to where they came from.

This is mega-troll type of stuff of litwin's type. It should not be bizarre to you.

It's trolling to correctly call you a defender of the racist apartheid state? Was Nelson Mandela or Desmond Tutu, who understood well what apartheid is, liars when they said the same (and worse) is what Israel is doing to Palestinians?

If you don't want to be associated with supporting a genocidal and racist aparheid state, maybe don't defend them, in general, and perhaps particularly while the natives are being carpet-bombed in their prison camp.

Armenians do not have that right in Stepanakert today. Why are Palestinians more special than Armenians?

I didn't say anything about Armenians. I'm saying Palestinians have the right to self-determination in their own land. For some reason you don't because you'd prefer to be on the side of the imperialists and racists here.

Why not?

Because Palestine belongs to Palestinians.

[noemon]

This is a silly analogy because the Russians in Crimea were born and raised there whereas the Israelis in Palestine are mainly from Europe, the U.S., Russia and other middle eastern countries. They are foreign to Palestine. The natives are not.

Israelis were born and raised in Israel.

Actually, the point was they were leaving to go back to where they came from.

The point is that you consider them foreign in Israel even if they are born and raised in Israel and are holding Israeli passports. This does not compute.

Because Palestine belongs to Palestinians.

Armenian Artsakh belonged to Armenias until a couple of weeks ago, when it was evacuated and now belongs to Azeri Turks.

This has been Armenia since before Christ.

Why are Palestinians more deserving than Armenians or Greek Cypriots or Greek Cappadokians like my own family?

We accepted defeat and moved on, why can't the Palestinians or you?

We are both arguing the same in Russia-Ukraine, asking Ukraine to stop because there is no point in carrying on, so why waste lives?

What is the point of Palestinians carrying on their struggle or intifada?

And yes of course, it is trolling calling me an "apartheid defender" simply for saying the same things as I do in Ukraine.

Accept reality, move on and let the rest of the world move on, too.

Same things I have accepted for myself as well, as I am not seeking to breach Turkey to get back my grandma's land.

Why do I have to come to terms with that loss but a Palestinian never should?

[wat0n]

Egypt actually has jus solis citizenship, the grandchildren of Palestinian refugees born there, if their parents were born there as well, should be eligible for citizenship. I don't know if they are respecting this part of their own Constitution.

[skinster]

Israelis were born and raised in Israel.

The vast majority were not. Why do you think Poland is sending whole planes to Israel, to collect its people? Why is the EU raising the Israeli flags, alongside Britain and other Western nations and the talking about saving their citizens with Israeli passports?


I mean, you only have to look at the people identifying as Israeli to see they are not of Middle Eastern descent, but of European descent.

This article from just over a decade ago says half to 3-quarters holding U.S. passports, 100,000 holding German passports, a million came from Russia/SU. It doesn't mention all the other countries and there is a guess there are more from Poland than Germany...but I can look into this..

The point is that you consider them foreign in Israel even if they are born and raised in Israel and are holding Israeli passports. This does not compute.

No, the point is they ran to the airport to go back to where they came from. Those who are born and raised in the land, I support the one state solution for them.

Armenian Artsakh belonged to Armenias until a couple of weeks ago, when it was evacuated and now belongs to Azeri Turks.

Palestine belongs to the Palestinians.

Palestine is the name the British colonists gave to the territory for a couple of decades. Both funny and ironic how British colonial names catch on.

Yes, it came from Falisteen which is what the natives still call it. We call it Palestine because we're not Arabs and that is the English version of the name.

Still, wondering why you're so into apartheid. I didn't have you for being pro a racist settler-colony. I'm sure you weren't once upon a time. But since you've demonstrated you can change your mind on wars, perhaps the same will occur here and you'll support an oppressed people's right to self-determination.

[noemon]

Palestine belongs to the Palestinians.

Armenian Artsakh belonged to Armenians until a couple of weeks ago, when it was evacuated and now belongs to Azeri Turks.

This has been Armenia since before Christ.

Why are Palestinians more deserving than Armenians or Greek Cypriots or Greek Cappadokians, like my own family?

We accepted defeat and moved on, why can't the Palestinians or you?

We are both arguing the same in Russia-Ukraine, asking from Ukraine to stop because there is no point in carrying on, so why waste lives?

What is the point of Palestinians carrying on their struggle or intifada?

And yes of course, it is trolling calling me an "apartheid defender" simply for saying the same things as I do in Ukraine.

Accept reality, move on and let the rest of the world move on, too.

Same things I have accepted for myself as well, as I am not seeking to breach Turkey to get back my grandma's land & property.

Why do I have to come to terms with that loss but a Palestinian never should?

[wat0n]

Actually many Israelis are going back, if anything, because they're getting called to serve as reservists.

Likewise, 78% of Israeli Jews were Israel-born in 2020.

And there's no shame in having a second passport. Didn't you, @skinster, marry solely to get an American one?

[skinster]

Why are Palestinians more deserving than Armenians or Greek Cypriots or Greek Cappadokians, like my own family?

You can keep talking off topic if you want and I will stick to saying Palestine belongs to the Palestinians.

We accepted defeat and moved on, why can't the Palestinians or you?

Because its their land. Still, I think you missed the part where Israel doesn't allow them to leave. Over 2 million live in a prison camp and over 3 million live under a racist military occupation which also restricts travel.

We are both arguing the same in Russia-Ukraine, asking from Ukraine to stop because there is no point in carrying on, so why waste lives?

I'm not sure what this means. I'm not supporting Ukrainians being forced out of their land. I support the people of Lugansk and Donetsk their right to self-determination, so you can see that this is how I'm being consistent and you're not. Otherwise, I support denazification of Ukraine since I am no fan of racists and nazis, just like those in Israel. But you're fine with them for some reason.

What is the point of Palestinians carrying on their struggle or intifada?

Victory in self-determination and recent historical injustices.

And yes of course, it is trolling calling me an "apartheid defender" simply for saying the same things as I do in Ukraine.

I didn't say Ukraine had apartheid, I said Israel does. That's an objective fact but you seem to think it's trolling when someone says you defend apartheid, even after observing this discussion.

Accept reality, move on and let the rest of the world move on, too.

For some reason you think my opinions on this matter are going to change Palestinians wish and right to self-determination.

Why do I have to come to terms with that loss but a Palestinian never should?

Unsure who's making you do that but it's certainly not me. I'm explicitly speaking about the Palestinians situation while you're bringing in other countries as if they share the same history.

But anyway, feel free to support the racist, genocidal state of Israel. Strange you're not supporting Ukraine then, since that would make your politics somewhat consistent..

Actually many Israelis are going back, if anything, because they're getting called to serve as reservists.

Thanks for reinforcing my point that they hold two passports, one of Israel and the other of where they came from.

Likewise, 78% of Israeli Jews were Israel-born in 2020.

Citation needed.

And there's no shame in having a second passport. Didn't you, @skinster, marry solely to get an American one?

I didn't say anything about shame, I was pointing out how many Israelis come from other countries and are not native to the land. I didn't get a U.S. passport either, in fact, I explicitly refused to take that route as a potential option.

[Rich]

We accepted defeat and moved on, why can't the Palestinians or you?

You (I mean in the plural) accepted defeat with relative prosperity. Its the same reason the Germans accepted defeat to France, Poland and Czechoslovakia after the wall came down. Its why Poles accepted the loss of lands to Belorussia and Ukraine. Its why ethnic Russians accepted 2nd class status in Estonia and why the millions upon millions of Latin Americans in the United States have no interest in returning stolen lands to Mexico.

If Ukraine had had an economy like Estonia or Finland then I'm sure a lot more Ethnic Russians and Russian speakers would have accepted the early 1990's settlement. But why should ethnic Russians want to become 2nd class citizens in a poorer state.

[wat0n]

Thanks for reinforcing my point that they hold two passports, one of Israel and the other of where they came from.

Like many countries, there are Israelis who live abroad. That means nothing.

Citation needed.

In 2020, 78% of the Jewish population were “Sabras” - born in Israel - compared with just a 35% native-born population at Israel’s independence in 1948. Over half of the Jewish population are Israeli-born to at least one parent who was also Israeli-born. Those of European and American ancestry make up about 2.2 million (36%) of the Jewish population in Israel, while Africans fill out another 14.5% and Asians are 11.2%.

I didn't say anything about shame, I was pointing out how many Israelis come from other countries and are not native to the land. I didn't get a U.S. passport either, in fact, I explicitly refused to take that route as a potential option.

If you say so

[noemon]

You can keep talking off topic if you want and I will stick to saying Palestine belongs to the Palestinians.

Because its their land. Still, I think you missed the part where Israel doesn't allow them to leave. Over 2 million live in a prison camp and over 3 million live under a racist military occupation which also restricts travel.

They are treated as prisoners of war because they are still at war.

I'm not sure what this means. I'm not supporting Ukrainians being forced out of their land. I support the people of Lugansk and Donetsk their right to self-determination, so you can see that this is how I'm being consistent and you're not. Otherwise, I support denazification of Ukraine since I am no fan of racists and nazis, just like those in Israel. But you're fine with them for some reason.

Oh dear. What about Israeli people's right to self-determination?

Victory in self-determination and recent historical injustices.

What does that mean? What is the objective? And how do you see this becoming possible?

Why do you prefer a war strategy instead of peace? What is the point of holding all these people prisoners at war until your impossible objectives of retaking Israel have been met?

I didn't say Ukraine had apartheid, I said Israel does. That's an objective fact but you seem to think it's trolling when someone says you defend apartheid, even after observing this discussion.

Apartheid is essentially a tool for ethnic cleansing as is altering ethno-political status of language, administration structures, status quo, etcetera.

Unsure who's making you do that but it's certainly not me. I'm explicitly speaking about the Palestinians situation while you're bringing in other countries as if they share the same history.

Reality makes me accept the fact of losing my family's property in Cappadokia, same reality that is happening right now for Armenians and Kurds and that also happened to Greek-Cypriots in 1974.

Under what kind of reality do the Palestinians reclaim their properties in Israel?

You (I mean in the plural) accepted defeat with relative prosperity. Its the same reason the Germans accepted defeat to France, Poland and Czechoslovakia after the wall came down. Its why Poles accepted the loss of lands to Belorussia and Ukraine. Its why ethnic Russians accepted 2nd class status in Estonia and why the millions upon millions of Latin Americans in the United States have no interest in returning stolen lands to Mexico.

If Ukraine had had an economy like Estonia or Finland then I'm sure a lot more Ethnic Russians and Russian speakers would have accepted the early 1990's settlement. But why should ethnic Russians want to become 2nd class citizens in a poorer state.

This makes little sense and is not true either. They accepted defeat because they had to. There is nothing else about prosperity attached to it.

[skinster]

Jewish Virtual Library

The article states at least half of the population (3.3 million) are immigrants since the theft of Palestine was complete in 1948.

JVL also states that before Westerners decided Palestine was called Israel, the population of Jews in Palestine was 32% (even though there was a lot of Zionist immigration before 1948.

The point is, the vast majority and their parents are foreigners to the land and the Palestinians are the natives.

They are treated as prisoners of war because they are still at war.

Citation needed. I get the feeling you don't quite know much about Palestine/Israel with comments like these.

Oh dear. What about Israeli people's right to self-determination?

Oh dear. Who's preventing Israeli self-determination? You may have noticed, they have a state with rights et all. It's the Palestinians who don't, even though Balfour Agreement stated explicitly that Palestinians would have their own state too on 45% of historic Palestine.

What does that mean? What is the objective? And how do you see this becoming possible?

It means victory in self-determination and from the historical injustices committed against them. What are you talking about? Because that's the part you're quoting me on.

Why do you prefer a war strategy instead of peace? What is the point of holding all these people prisoners at war until your impossible objectives of retaking Israel have been met?

What the hell are you talking about? Who said anything about retaking? Do you understand what a one-state solution means? I mean, I explained it already but it seems like it might need to be repeated since you're asking strange questions now.

Apartheid is essentially a tool for ethnic cleansing as is altering ethno-political status of language, administration structures, status quo, etcetera.

Yes, that's what the Israelis are doing in the West Bank. You seem to support them in this.

Under what kind of reality do the Palestinians reclaim their properties in Israel?

Many of them have not just the deeds but keys to their homes. The Palestinians are also enshrined within international law, the right to return to their homes.

I'd recommend reading up on Palestine a bit more before unwittingly defending an imperialist apartheid colony, because judging by some of the above and you being very selective on which parts you're quoting me, it doesn't seem to me that you're as clear in understanding the reality of the situation than you're trying to suggest.

[wat0n]

The article states at least half of the population (3.3 million) are immigrants since the theft of Palestine was complete in 1948.

Many among those 3.3 million are dead.

JVL also states that before Westerners decided Palestine was called Israel, the population of Jews in Palestine was 32% (even though there was a lot of Zionist immigration before 1948.

So?

The point is, the vast majority and their parents are foreigners to the land and the Palestinians are the natives.

Funny, this sounds a lot like those Europeans who regard Muslims (religious or not) born there as perpetually foreign because their parents and grandparents immigrated there. Doesn't that even include yourself?

Why are Jews always special, somehow?

[Tainari88]

You (I mean in the plural) accepted defeat with relative prosperity. Its the same reason the Germans accepted defeat to France, Poland and Czechoslovakia after the wall came down. Its why Poles accepted the loss of lands to Belorussia and Ukraine. Its why ethnic Russians accepted 2nd class status in Estonia and why the millions upon millions of Latin Americans in the United States have no interest in returning stolen lands to Mexico.

If Ukraine had had an economy like Estonia or Finland then I'm sure a lot more Ethnic Russians and Russian speakers would have accepted the early 1990's settlement. But why should ethnic Russians want to become 2nd class citizens in a poorer state.

Rich, that is not exactly correct. The Mexican Americans who lived in the Southwest still want their land grants to be respected. They challenge the courts to this very day Rich. I met one leader of that group. He won a court case and the FBI put a tail on him for years. Because if he was successful then the Native American challenges would also have a possibility of success.

It is about power and guns. The US Congress has a bad history saying they will abide by the agreements and they do not. It is basically about who can enforce their will over people who were there before they showed up.

It is an expensive endeavor Rich to take on these legal challenges. Many previous Mexican Americans still do not want to let go of their roots. Listen to this ABC News video on the subject.

The land and who has a right to use it and get a living off of it is always controversial because it is about force and so on.

The guy who led them was Reies Lopez Tijerina. I met him and his family. I remember talking with his kids. You obviously do not know jack shit about that part of the USA. Why do you not know? The only history you know of is the part of the ones stealing the land and changing the narrative.

Ay Rich...de verdad?

[Tainari88]

What a disaster it would be if racist fanatics took over our media and banks.

Even if they became secular and tolerantTM, they would probably use their long-dead religious practices as a theme for their organized crime gangs.

Everything is rewritten to favor some narrative that is about elites and their positions in society. The government is an extension of that power. It is not a surprising fact that most of Congress and the Senate are all super wealthy people from wealthy families that have some connection to past power for generations by now. That happens in societies that use wealth to consolidate power. It is not new in human history and it continues all the time.

[Tainari88]

@skinster wrote:

Again, Palestine is right. Nobody has a right to genocide, land-theft and ethnic-cleansing with no end in sight. Nobody has a right to imprison and blockade people. Nobody has a right to force the natives of a land to live under a racist military rule. Palestinians are the victims here. Jews killed in Europe are not the fault of the Palestinians, but the fault of the Western states which allowed it to happen

This is the root of what is wrong with colonialism and imperialism all over the world and in many different moments in history. That lack of acknowledgment of the wrongs done to those who lived peacefully in their own lands and were removed by force, violence and threats. All related to greed and wanting to control territory that previously had people on them.

The history of the Americas is one big takeover since 1492 until now. It was to benefit empires. Everyone understand this. The issues become how does one live with the history of the past that is painful and get a form of peace?

Again, a long discussion on human rights.

Removing government leadership that continues to deny rights to other nations, peoples, and countries just to benefit a very tiny elite that does not even live in that area of the world but want to control it from afar. That needs to be addressed. Not only in the Americas but in the Old World as well.

Why are people moving as asylees and refugees and as immigrants constantly now? The reasons are fairly consistent and identifiable Skinster.

1. Lack of economic opportunities. They can't find jobs. Or the jobs they have do not pay enough, are dangerous, or inadequate for sustaining a family.

2. War and lack of safety concerns. It could be it is full of crime, gangs, and danger and bullets flying and remaining would take a huge risk with your family. Got to move from that place. Often with only the clothes on your back.

4. Corruption from local and or foreign governments that impede any kind of reliable system of addressing disputes in a civilized manner and the only option is often violent revolt. Also a problem all over the world.

5. Serious violence within the home. Domestic violence, violence between feuding families, and so on. Tribal conflict is very common in many areas of the world and it is often linked to access to a vital source of life like water and land and resources present on that land.

All of these issues have solutions but if the political will is lacking and neither side can talk about it? it will never be resolved.

Identity is a very interesting part of how humans define themselves. A Jew might be a Jew that has not seen the land of Israel ever in their lifetimes but identifies with the cause of the Israeli state. The right of the Jewish people to have a homeland. They do not really think they get that kind of real representation if they are Jewish first always as an identifier, and citizens of a nation second.

They conveniently pass over the fact that there were people on that land before they took it over in 1946. The world turned their back on Jews in WWII. Who turned their back at that point in WWII? The many Empire based nations.

The reality is that imperialism is a scourge on humanity and always has been. You got to give up on empire building. But if you back capitalism you can't do that. Got to have enough reach into every land base on planet Earth to swoop in and make sure you have that desired resource in order to expand and become powerful in whatever enterprise the capitalist has a need to develop.

The issue is that the resources will eventually be tapped out. At some point. And they either learn to stop that cannibalistic and crazy system that has no limits and recognizes nothing but its own need to consume and demand....or the planet will close those systems down for us. By saying, the water is gone, the earth is scorched, the land is wasted and sterile, the air is fetid, the people are without the basics.

When that is reached then there will be a real hatred of that system that will be intolerable for all of us. And then we will have to do an accounting of the ones who were blinded by their love of that system that had a the seed of defeat from the beginning.

You got to live within a limited sense of sobriety and fairness. Do not seek that which is not fairly done and as an equal and in consideration of the needs of the many. Not about some elite group who has low social and economic consciousness and believes in limitless access to their own egos only. That is death for all of us.

Got to change the value system humans have been living the bad consequences of for a long time.

[Rich]

The history of the Americas is one big takeover since 1492 until now. It was to benefit empires. Everyone understand this. The issues become how does one live with the history of the past that is painful and get a form of peace?

Picking on 1492 is anti European racism. Most Amerindians were not living in peace prior to 1492. And even those that were, so what? Most were probably committing heinous crimes by the standards of our modern day laws. All over the world people were fighting each other and the powerful were exploiting the less powerful.

Why do you care so much if Europeans took land from Amerindians? The Amerindians were losers, so what. They would have done the same or worse to us if they got the chance. The Comanche, The Zulu and the Maori never conquered any of Europe. Do you think that was due to some superior moral virtue? No it was because of their inferior technology.

We can read about over 2000 years of Europeans attacking, conquering, enslaving, raping, lying, cheating and exploiting people, sometimes other Europeans, sometimes non Europeans. We can't read about this with Black Africans or Amerindians, not because they were one jot better morally, but simply because very limited or no writings were preserved.