[wat0n]

The recent instance of barbarism by Hamas and the other Gazan armed groups shows the crux of the issue is the fact they are able to rule over a wide swath of the Palestinians whether they like it or not, not the demographics of the region a century ago.

[Tailz]

The recent instance of barbarism by Hamas and the other Gazan armed groups shows the crux of the issue is the fact they are able to rule over a wide swath of the Palestinians whether they like it or not, not the demographics of the region a century ago.

The crux of the issue is that this is a long drawn-out affair over land and religious sites. The recent instance of barbarism is sadly a part of that long story of injustice meated out by both sides upon the other. For now, we are in store for Israel's revenge for this bloodshed, which was itself revenge, a continuation of the cyclical cycle of barbarism.

The demographics of a century ago are what sparked off this conflagration...

[MadMonk]

The brutality is disturbing, yes. I've been highly critical of Israel for the past decade, but even the most Palestinian supporting partisan is struggling to stand behind the actions of Hamas right now.

The Palestinian people will not back down, no matter what. Generation after generation, it continues to get worse and there will never be any reconciliation. If there are any answers without the ultimate human suffering, something most Israelis knows all too well, I don't see it.

[Fasces]

Both. Neither.

[Potemkin]

The brutality is disturbing, yes. I've been highly critical of Israel for the past decade, but even the most Palestinian supporting partisan is struggling to stand behind the actions of Hamas right now.

The Palestinian people will not back down, no matter what. Generation after generation, it continues to get worse and there will never be any reconciliation. If there are any answers without the ultimate human suffering, something most Israelis knows all too well, I don't see it.

This is what war looks like, @MadMonk. This is what resistance looks like. This is what a revolution looks like.

[wat0n]

The crux of the issue is that this is a long drawn-out affair over land and religious sites. The recent instance of barbarism is sadly a part of that long story of injustice meated out by both sides upon the other. For now, we are in store for Israel's revenge for this bloodshed, which was itself revenge, a continuation of the cyclical cycle of barbarism.

The demographics of a century ago are what sparked off this conflagration...

Long drawn or not, right now the #1 obstacle to any peace treaty is the Palestinian islamists. It's clear it's impossible to negotiate any sort of final status agreement with them and that they hold Palestinian society as a whole hostage.

As I've said many times in the past, even if Israel signed a peace treaty with the Palestinian Authority, the problem of the islamist armed groups would remain. Even under the best case scenario, Israel would need to reoccupy Gaza and disarm all those groups, going door by door if necessary.

[Fasces]

The best case scenario isn't a two state solution, even if your version is the 'best' version of a two state solution.

[wat0n]

What's the "best case scenario"?

[Fasces]

A one state solution of a peaceful, democratic, and secular multiparty state composed of Israelis and Arabs with the right of return for Palestinean refugees and their descendents is a much better 'best case scenario' than the current apartheidist one, wouldn't you agree?

Is the support for Hamas a biological fact or a consequence of Palestinean economic and social marginalization? It's just odd, to me, that your 'best case scenario' takes as a given the continued marginalization of Palestineans and the entrenchment of legal seperation between Arab and Jewish communities. What does that say about Israeli institutions that there is no feasible future in which the land is shared with the Arab people?

[Rugoz]

This is what war looks like, @MadMonk. This is what resistance looks like. This is what a revolution looks like.

Nah.

It's utterly pointless violence.

Hamas has no chance whatsoever, and it won't win "hearts and minds" by massacring hundreds at a music festival.

Israel meanwhile retaliates by bombing Gaza with little regard for civilian casualties.

[Rugoz]

A one state solution of a peaceful, democratic, and secular multiparty state composed of Israelis and Arabs with the right of return for Palestinean refugees and their descendents is a much better 'best case scenario' than the current apartheidist one, wouldn't you agree?

Is the support for Hamas a biological fact or a consequence of Palestinean economic and social marginalization? It's just odd, to me, that your 'best case scenario' takes as a given the continued marginalization of Palestineans and the entrenchment of legal seperation between Arab and Jewish communities. What does that say about Israeli institutions that there is no feasible future in which the land is shared with the Arab people?

"peaceful, democratic and secular" with millions of Palestineans becoming a part of Israel? That's hilarious .

Israel barely functions with the religious fanatics it already has.

[Fasces]

Are Palestineans born violent militant Islamists?

[Rugoz]

Are Palestineans born violent militant Islamists?

Name me a peaceful, democratic and secular Arab society.

[Fasces]

Tunisia. The Arab community of Madrid. The Arab community of dozens of cities around the world.

Nonetheless, if I understand your position correctly - your view is that Arabs are fundamentally violent Islamists?

[Rugoz]

Tunisia.

Not anymore. It was short-lived.

Moreover, Tunisia did not have the historical baggage Israel has. If it does not work in Tunisia or anywhere else, why should it work in Israel of all places?

But if I understand your position correctly, your view Arabs are fundamentally violent Islamists?

They certainly have a strong tendency towards it.

[Rugoz]

The Arab community of Madrid. The Arab community of dozens of cities around the world.

Immigrant communities are different.

Israel might be majority-Arab in a few decades yet still be secular and democratic.

[Potemkin]

Not anymore. It was short-lived.

Moreover, Tunisia did not have the historical baggage Israel has. If it does not work in Tunisia or anywhere else, why should it work in Israel of all places?



They certainly have a strong tendency towards it.

And until very recently, Europeans had a strong tendency towards being violent religious fanatics. Remember the Thirty Years War? The Spanish Inquisition? The expulsion of the Moors and the Jews from Spain? And so on and so forth. Were Europeans just born that way? Or was their behaviour the result of concrete material and historical forces operating at that specific time?

[Rugoz]

And until very recently, Europeans had a strong tendency towards being violent religious fanatics. Remember the Thirty Years War? The Spanish Inquisition? The expulsion of the Moors and the Jews from Spain? And so on and so forth. Were Europeans just born that way? Or was their behaviour the result of concrete material and historical forces operating at that specific time?

That was hundreds of years ago.

I'm not saying it will never happen. I'm saying it would not succeed today in Israel.

[noemon]

The Arab people of Palestine have refused to accept defeat for 70 years, this is unprecedented. Armenia surrendered to Azerbaijan in 24 hours and within 72 hours had evacuated 200k people from a piece of land larger than Israel. The Arab people of Palestine are being kept there by the Arab world as a way of beating the anti-western and antisemitic drums in perpetuity.

Even the Turks evacuated Greece, the Greeks evacuated Istanbul, Izmir and the Black sea coast in a matter of days or months. Areas the Greeks have been in for more than 3000 years on record and without break.

Yet the Arabs, simply refuse to accept defeat & evacuate their Muslim brothers and integrate them into their families just so the entire Arab world can posture as eternal victims.

It's blood marketing gone insane and hence why many Jews consider this as anti-semitism, because only with the Jews have the Arabs never accepted defeat. They were all happy to surrender to Napoleon and the British with no questions asked but to Jews, never!

[Tainari88]

The Arab people of Palestine have refused to accept defeat for 70 years, this is unprecedented. Armenia surrendered to Azerbaijan in 24 hours and within 72 hours had evacuated 200k people from a piece of land larger than Israel. The Arab people of Palestine are being kept there by the Arab world as a way of beating the anti-western and antisemitic drums in perpetuity.

Even the Turks evacuated Greece, the Greeks evacuated Istanbul, Izmir and the Black sea coast in a matter of days or months. Areas the Greeks have been in for more than 3000 years on record and without break.

Yet the Arabs, simply refuse to accept defeat & evacuate their Muslim brothers and integrate them into their families just so the entire Arab world can posture as eternal victims.

It's blood marketing gone insane and hence why many Jews consider this as anti-semitism, because only with the Jews have the Arabs never accepted defeat. They were all happy to surrender to Napoleon and the British with no questions asked but to Jews, never!

Netanyahu is a Right-wing leader for Israel. He had a lot of protests with his recent political actions.

Do you think the Palestinians should not have their own state? What is wrong with a two-state solution?

Why not have peaceful co-existence? I was reading up recently on the Abrahamic religions. If you do not allow the Palestinians to have rights, like going to school in peace, letting the men and women have jobs and get to their jobs no matter where the job is? You do not allow basic human rights then how can you blame them if that whole powder keg explodes? I have seen so many of those young men and women on the Palestinian side having Israeli soldiers just come in and occupy physically their private homes, do surveillance through the windows of homes of Paletinians and outrageous behavior. For what? Palestine has a right to exist as well.

Israel is a new state. It was founded in 1946 after the end of the WWII. The land they wanted was already occupied by another group. They took it over by force. I know the reasons why they did it. What choice did the Jews have? They were persecuted in WWII terribly, begging for help and a place to land safely from Nazi persecution all over Europe. Ousted from Russia, Ukraine, Poland, France, Germany, Austria, and the Netherlands, and sent to concentration camps and the ovens.

They were being exterminated in a racist genocidal systemic way. The reaction was extreme need for survival and they themselves internalized the violence and in order to carve out that land for the Jews all over the world, wound up using similar tactics on the Palestinians. It is unfair and unjust.

Negotiating as equals with human rights being respected and living in peaceful co-existence is the intelligent and humane solution. There are Palestinians all over the world living in exile. Mexico has quite a few of them. No one wants to live in exile. People want to live in peace in the land of their forefathers.

Would you give up Greece to those with more money and more power? Let us say the Turks really like Greek land and they beef up their military and plan to invade and take over Greece? They come in with overwhelming force with Yankee money and weapons? All ethnic Greeks got to just get the fuck out? Leave their land behind to wander the deserts of the world for the rest of their existence because might is right....would you do it Noemon?

I have heard that story for Puerto Rico. Just fucking give up. It is a tiny island and the Puerto Ricans do not have a snowball's chance in hell of getting rid of the US occupation. The tax dodgers from the USA want that pretty island with beachfront property on it, and to protect their money from taxation. They get all the privileges and the Puerto Ricans to hell with what they want. Give up your land, give us your money and pack your fucking bags. Nobody gives a fuck about if your culture survives the onslaught or if the Puerto Ricans who have been there for hundreds of years before the Yanks arrived survives or not. The ones with big fucking guns are the only ones that count for something.

Be grateful they do not throw bombs on all of you and you can go to Chicago, freeze your ass off and live there in some ghetto. Be grateful. Forget about your land, your culture, your right to self-determination. Ignore your lack of voting, and representation and dying in Yankee wars for over one hundred years. Accept fucking defeat and stop complaining!