[Pants-of-dog]

The plans I've seen was one from Israel's Intelligence Ministry that was publicly disavowed. The other one was from a think tank, that led to no comments by the government since it's not a state body.

I haven't heard of any other plans.

I haven't lied about anything. I leave that to you, who lies about justifying the October 7th massacre.

You simultaneously claim that you know nothing of these plans, so that you can demand I cite them, and also claim that you know exactly these plans can be dismissed.

Logically, one must be a lie.

And neither refute my claim.

[wat0n]

You simultaneously claim that you know nothing of these plans, so that you can demand I cite them, and also claim that you know exactly these plans can be dismissed.

Logically, one must be a lie.

And neither refute my claim.

I want you to cite them because I don't know exactly what specific plans you're talking about.

This is vague so a citation would make things clear. Both their content, their source and - with some further research - if there has been any move to implement them.

I won't waste time refuting vague claims.

[Pants-of-dog]

Many people in Israel, including in the top tiers of government, speak openly about ethnic cleansing of Palestine, and they do so with impunity.

Is that vague?

[wat0n]

Many people in Israel, including in the top tiers of government, speak openly about ethnic cleansing of Palestine, and they do so with impunity.

Is that vague?

Actually, yes it is. Does this translate into an actual plan? Does this translate into specific, verifiable action?

I think we can agree that, given the circumstances, it would be necessary to have these things. Neither Israel nor Egypt are keen on letting hundreds of thousands of Gazans into their territory for whatever reason, and Israel won't risk Egypt's internal stability by forcing the entry of people into Egypt (not to speak of outright war between both), so they would need to be sent away in ships. That operation would definitely require planning, and it should be visible even using satellite images.

[Pants-of-dog]

Actually, yes it is. Does this translate into an actual plan? Does this translate into specific, verifiable action?

No one said anything about action at this point,

So it seems that your criticism of vagueness only applies because it is vague on a subject that is merely related to the claim, and is not part of the claim itself.

I think we can agree that, given the circumstances, it would be necessary to have these things.

Which things?

Neither Israel nor Egypt are keen on letting hundreds of thousands of Gazans into their territory for whatever reason, and Israel won't risk Egypt's internal stability by forcing the entry of people into Egypt (not to speak of outright war between both), so they would need to be sent away in ships. That operation would definitely require planning, and it should be visible even using satellite images.

There is also the plan of simply paying Egypt to take in, and take care of, the refugees.

Of course, the IDF could simply keep killing the refugees as they flee, as they have dome so far.

[wat0n]

No one said anything about action at this point,

So it seems that your criticism of vagueness only applies because it is vague on a subject that is merely related to the claim, and is not part of the claim itself.

Actually, the accusation is that Israel is committing ethnic cleansing now.

Which things?

The ones I mentioned in my post.

There is also the plan of simply paying Egypt to take in, and take care of, the refugees.

Egypt won't do that. It regards Gazans as a security threat, especially after the 2013 coup that toppled Mohammed Morsi.

Of course, the IDF could simply keep killing the refugees as they flee, as they have dome so far.

It has actually allowed safe passage for displaced Gazans.

[Pants-of-dog]

Actually, the accusation is that Israel is committing ethnic cleansing now.

But not exclusively, especially in this thread.

In this thread, we are discussing Netanyahu’s long term plans for Gaza. So, the ongoing ethnic cleansing is one part of it. The ongoing discussions are another part of it.

The ones I mentioned in my post.

Egypt won't do that. It regards Gazans as a security threat, especially after the 2013 coup that toppled Mohammed Morsi.

Enough money might make Egypt care less about such things.

It has actually allowed safe passage for displaced Gazans.

No, It has claimed that, and then the IDF has bombed the supposedly safe south where Gazans were told to flee.

[wat0n]

But not exclusively, especially in this thread.

In this thread, we are discussing Netanyahu’s long term plans for Gaza. So, the ongoing ethnic cleansing is one part of it. The ongoing discussions are another part of it.

It isn't ongoing and therefore we can leave that out.

Enough money might make Egypt care less about such things.

Not if it puts Al Sisi's regime at risk.

No, It has claimed that, and then the IDF has bombed the supposedly safe south where Gazans were told to flee.

It has done that and there's footage of it. There are also accusations of Hamas actually bombing and shooting at Palestinians fleeing.

[Pants-of-dog]

It isn't ongoing and therefore we can leave that out.

How many internally displaced Palestinians are there?

Not if it puts Al Sisi's regime at risk.

Maybe Mossad can help his regime end early.

It has done that and there's footage of it. There are also accusations of Hamas actually bombing and shooting at Palestinians fleeing.

So you agree that the IDZf is killing fleeing Gazans.

This is another point of evidence that Netanyahu’s long term plans for Gaza involves a conspicuous absence of Palestinians.

[wat0n]

How many internally displaced Palestinians are there?

1.9 million.

How many have been expelled from Gaza?

Maybe Mossad can help his regime end early.

Why would it do that? Al Sisi has good relations with Israel.

So you agree that the IDZf is killing fleeing Gazans.

This is another point of evidence that Netanyahu’s long term plans for Gaza involves a conspicuous absence of Palestinians.

No, I don't agree with that. Israel has helped Gazans flee.

More lies, but this is not surprising.

I am still waiting for you to cite these plans, by the way. I want to read the specifics of how would Israel make Gazans leave.

[Pants-of-dog]

1.9 million.

How many have been expelled from Gaza?

So the majority have been forcibly expelled from their homes.

This is considered a war crime, and is a logical and useful step towards ethnic cleansing of Palestine.

Which suggests this is Netanyahu”s plan.

Why would it do that? Al Sisi has good relations with Israel.

The next guy could be better.

No, I don't agree with that. Israel has helped Gazans flee.

You just agreed with it. You can pivot now and contradict yourself.

It does not matter. You even said there was evidence of it.

[wat0n]

So the majority have been forcibly expelled from their homes.

This is considered a war crime, and is a logical and useful step towards ethnic cleansing of Palestine.

Which suggests this is Netanyahu”s plan.

No, they have not been expelled. They have been displaced by war, a war started by Hamas.

The next guy could be better.

Or worse. So?

You just agreed with it. You can pivot now and contradict yourself.

It does not matter. You even said there was evidence of it.

No, I did not agree with it. I said there is evidence of IDF soldiers letting civilians flee.

[Pants-of-dog]

No, they have not been expelled. They have been displaced by war, a war started by Hamas.

No. They were told by the IDF that they either leave their homes or would be bombed in them.

Or worse. So?

So Mossad would have no qualms about regime change that would benefit Israel.

No, I did not agree with it. I said there is evidence of IDF soldiers letting civilians flee.

Then you should have been more clear several posts ago.

Back to the topic:

The ongoing killing of refugees along the supposed safe corridor is also a point of evidence that Netanyahu is planning on significantly reducing the Palestinian population in Gaza.

[wat0n]

No. They were told by the IDF that they either leave their homes or would be bombed in them.

They were allowed to flee the fighting, because Hamas likes using their neighborhoods for military ends.

So Mossad would have no qualms about regime change that would benefit Israel.

It wouldn't, though. That's the point.

Then you should have been more clear several posts ago.

Back to the topic:

The ongoing killing of refugees along the supposed safe corridor is also a point of evidence that Netanyahu is planning on significantly reducing the Palestinian population in Gaza.

Who killed them? There are accusations that civilians who were fleeing were being killed by Hamas because it had ordered them to stay.

[starman2003]

And would still be a risk Israelis won't accept.

Many would accept a small theoretical risk to get rid of them.

According to whom?

Actually "revival" after extinction may not be the right term. Israelis are said to have given up trying to annihilate Hamas. The job wasn't finished in northern gaza when they pulled out forces.

Right now, you mean. It would still be sending refugees to another active combat zone.

There's no comparison between possible dangers in Africa and an air and ground force as lethal as the Israeli.

[wat0n]

Many would accept a small theoretical risk to get rid of them.

I doubt so.

Actually "revival" after extinction may not be the right term. Israelis are said to have given up trying to annihilate Hamas. The job wasn't finished in northern gaza when they pulled out forces.

One may wonder what does "annihilating" Hamas mean. I would think it means what happened to ISIS: Having its military infrastructure destroyed to such degree that it can't govern anymore and can't return to government for an indefinite period of time.

There's no comparison between possible dangers in Africa and an air and ground force as lethal as the Israeli.

But there is a comparison between the living standards they can expect in Gaza right now and those they can expect in conflict ridden parts of Africa. And once the current Gaza war ends, Africa will be far less attractive in comparison.

[Pants-of-dog]

They were allowed to flee the fighting, because Hamas likes using their neighborhoods for military ends.

So you agree that the IDF told them they had to flee or be bombed, and the justification that the IDF gave was as you describe.

It wouldn't, though. That's the point.

I think you misunderstood again.

Anyway, the point is that Netanyahu and his cronies have already concocted plans to get Egypt and other countries on their side.

Who killed them? There are accusations that civilians who were fleeing were being killed by Hamas because it had ordered them to stay.

According to the testimonies I have read, it was the IDF.

It seems there are systemic issues that end up with a lot of Palestinian civilians dying at the hands of IDF soldiers.

And the system is also set up to help Israel take over Palestinian land and resources.

It is difficult to believe this is simply a coincidence.

[wat0n]

So you agree that the IDF told them they had to flee or be bombed, and the justification that the IDF gave was as you describe.

Part of that use includes using their neighborhoods as rocket launching pads.

Are you saying Israelis don't have any right to stop rockets from being launched into their cities?

I think you misunderstood again.

I think you have no arguments again.

Anyway, the point is that Netanyahu and his cronies have already concocted plans to get Egypt and other countries on their side.

Where can I read the plans?

According to the testimonies I have read, it was the IDF.

It seems there are systemic issues that end up with a lot of Palestinian civilians dying at the hands of IDF soldiers.

And the system is also set up to help Israel take over Palestinian land and resources.

It is difficult to believe this is simply a coincidence.

According to the testimonies I read, it was Hamas.

It seems there are systemic issues that end up with Hamas shooting at Palestinian civilians, if we go by allegations like this one:



If this is in fact in Rafah (most likely), those guys shooting are not Israeli. The IDF isn't operating on the ground in Rafah.

[Pants-of-dog]

Part of that use includes using their neighborhoods as rocket launching pads.

Are you saying Israelis don't have any right to stop rockets from being launched into their cities?

I am not interested in your justifications for these facts.

It is a fact that the IDF told Gazans to leave or be bombed.

It is a fact that the majority of homes in Gaza have been destroyed by the IDF.

It is a fact that Israel has previously used lands gained in war as settlements.

I think you have no arguments again.

Where can I read the plans?

I am not interested in your opinion of how well you think you are doing in this thread, especially when you are once more being deliberately dishonest.

According to the testimonies I read, it was Hamas.

It seems there are systemic issues that end up with Hamas shooting at Palestinian civilians, if we go by allegations like this one:



If this is in fact in Rafah (most likely), those guys shooting are not Israeli. The IDF isn't operating on the ground in Rafah.

At this point, I honestly believe that you do not know what a whataboutism is and why it is a logical fallacy.

[wat0n]

I am not interested in your justifications for these facts.

It is a fact that the IDF told Gazans to leave or be bombed.

It is a fact that the majority of homes in Gaza have been destroyed by the IDF.

It is a fact that Israel has previously used lands gained in war as settlements.

It is also a fact that Hamas carried out the largest massacre of Jews since the Holocaust on October 7th, but in that case you were very much happy to justify it. Even implying that criticizing this massacre was being manichean.

It is a fact this war was started by that massacre, just as it is a fact that Hamas launches rockets from populated areas.

And it is also a fact you have double standards here, because in your view massacring Jews is fine, as long as the perpetrator is not a white right-winger.

I am not interested in your opinion of how well you think you are doing in this thread, especially when you are once more being deliberately dishonest.

Still no arguments to provide here, huh?

At this point, I honestly believe that you do not know what a whataboutism is and why it is a logical fallacy.

This isn't whataboutism. What I am saying is that it is entirely possible those civilians were in fact shot by Hamas.

This is particularly true in areas where there was no known presence of Israeli ground troops, and where civilians were killed by firearms.

That video from Rafah is one such example.