[late]

Try to focus indeed, he talked about the deaths of journalists.

I made an extremely simple point you want to avoid:

Israel has killed LOTS of foreign workers, far too many. Which leads to the blatantly obvious conclusion that everyone that has seen the pictures of Gaza already knows, the killing is indiscriminate.

This is not open to question, they've shot their own people wearing underwear and waving a white flag. They have been using 2,000 pound bombs that are designed to kill as many as possible.

Gaza is turning into a moonscape on the edge of starvation and plague. UN workers that spend their lives handling this sort of thing were shocked by the savagery and deprivation.

Your pissant denials only call more attention to the horror...

[wat0n]

Obviously, Israel is the colonizer.

I explained this by pointing out the power dynamic. You replied and everything.

And I said you're wrong. In particular, you are ignoring the fact that the power dynamic has not been constant throughout the conflict.

When Palestinians were powerful, before Israel's reestablishment, there were periodical massacres of the Jewish population, even before 19th-century nationalism like Zionism or Arab nationalism were a thing.

It's odd that you will go back centuries in other cases, but not when the Jewish victims don't live in in Europe or the Americas.

Yes, the IDF does provide explanations for why they shut down hospitals, kill reporters, and displace the majority of the population.

Like I said, I present facts, and then you provide justifications for those facts that preclude the possibility of genocide and ethnic cleansing.

Those explanations are also based on facts, including footage. Why are you ignoring those facts?

No. I understand that you believe you did.

Again, this is because you are viewing this through a paradigm that precludes any possibility of major wrongdoing on the part of the IDAf.

No, I did. Full stop.

This was confirmed by third parties who have documented the same.

But you don't like facts, because your position is not about facts. It's about paradigms.

Yea, and as I mentioned, Netanyahu is deliberately using this as a way to prolong military intervention and stopping any diplomatic or non-violent way of getting the hostages back.

He does not actually want the hostages back.

They are more useful as a causus belli.

Netanyahu offered a 2-month ceasefire, exchanging prisoners for hostages and a safe way out for Hamas' leadership in Gaza, and Hamas said no.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-rej ... -hostages/

I made an extremely simple point you want to avoid:

Israel has killed LOTS of foreign workers, far too many. Which leads to the blatantly obvious conclusion that everyone that has seen the pictures of Gaza already knows, the killing is indiscriminate.

This is not open to question, they've shot their own people wearing underwear and waving a white flag. They have been using 2,000 pound bombs that are designed to kill as many as possible.

Gaza is turning into a moonscape on the edge of starvation and plague. UN workers that spend their lives handling this sort of thing were shocked by the savagery and deprivation.

Your pissant denials only call more attention to the horror...

The complicity of UNRWA with Hamas is well known and documented, whether you like it or not.

An example, which is yet another case of Hamas using civilian infrastructure and civilians themselves for military ends:

Rockets under relief supplies raise questions about UNRWA
Released hostages says UNRWA teacher held him captive.

(December 3, 2023 / JNS)
Israeli soldiers found missiles and military gear hidden among U.N. relief supplies in the northern Gaza Strip, the Israel Defense Forces said on Saturday.

One hundred ten rockets, including 30 Grad rockets, were found hidden among boxes belonging to the UN Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA), which supports Palestinian refugees and their descendants, the IDF said.

Russian-made Grad rockets have a range of 12.5-25 miles.

The rockets were found inside a home in a densely populated area of northern Gaza.

In October, the UNRWA reported that fuel humanitarian aid was stolen from one of its compounds by men using trucks purporting to be from the Hamas-run Ministry of Health.

On Wednesday, one of the released hostages told Channel 13 reporter Almog Boker that he had been held captive by a UNRWA teacher. The hostage said the teacher locked him away and barely fed or cared for his medical treatment.

The UNRWA denied the accusation and asked Almog to provide further proof. Almog responded on X, formerly called Twitter, on Saturday, saying that revealing the identity of the freed hostage would endanger those still captive in Gaza.

“One of them testified he was held hostage and starved by an @UNRWA teacher. That’s not an ‘allegation’. That’s a survivor testimony, and more testimonies are coming,” Almog tweeted.

“While Hamas holds 136 Israeli hostages in Gaza, I can’t share information that could endanger them or identify the survivor. I hope UNRWA treats this more seriously than Hamas’s theft from its stocks and abuse of its civilian facilities for terror activity.”

In November, the U.K.-based Institute for Monitoring Peace and Cultural Tolerance in School Education (IMPACT-se) issued a report detailing how at least 14 UNRWA teachers celebrated Hamas’s Oct. 7 massacres of Israelis on social media. The report included links and screenshots.

The report also noted that the UNRWA curriculum helped fuel the massacre by noting that IMPACT-se was able to identify at least 118 participants in the Oct. 7 attack as former students of UNRWA schools.

The U.S. State Department allocated more than $220 million for UNRWA in June despite its schools’ curriculum glorifying violence and terrorism, as well as an agreement conditioning funding on the prevention of teaching hate and antisemitism.

And you still have nothing to say as to whether you consider Clinton's bombing of Serbian TV stations, killing civilians in the process, a crime or even just wrong.

Your issue, like with leftists in general, is not with verifiably wrongful acts but with who commits those acts and who the victims of those acts are. These last few months have proven what anyone should have been able to tell in the last few years: Leftists don't actually have a problem with all sorts of crimes as long as those they support commit them and/or as long as they are bigoted against the victims.

It doesn't matter if it's the looting and ensuing ruin of affected small businesses in 2020, censorship of speech you don't like, racist stereotyping of Asians in college admissions or the murder, kidnapping or rape of civilians in Israel. Those get a pass, because the perpetrators are doing it for a cause you support and/or you think the victims had it coming.

And if/when the shoe is now on the other foot, you whine about it even though in the end you are just being treated with reciprocity.

[late]

And if/when the shoe is now on the other foot, you whine about it even though in the end you are just being treated with reciprocity.

"Two tank rounds on Wednesday hit a United Nations training center in southern Gaza, killing at least nine people, injuring 75 others and starting a blaze at a facility where hundreds of people displaced by fighting had taken shelter, U.N. officials said."
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2024/01/24/world/israel-hamas-gaza-news

The White House is finally openly condemning the savagery.

And it doesn't exactly help with their little war crime trial...

Ooops.

[ingliz]

@wat0n

Nothing can justify killing.

As the Quran says, For whoever kills a man, it is as if he had slain mankind entirely.

But context can explain it.

Not for you, though.

You disregard the past, start every day anew, and are baffled by events.

[wat0n]

"Two tank rounds on Wednesday hit a United Nations training center in southern Gaza, killing at least nine people, injuring 75 others and starting a blaze at a facility where hundreds of people displaced by fighting had taken shelter, U.N. officials said."
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2024/01/24/world/israel-hamas-gaza-news

The White House is finally openly condemning the savagery.

And it doesn't exactly help with their little war crime trial...

Ooops.

Is this supposed to be a response to what I said?

Thus far you and @Pants-of-dog have been justifying the massacre, implying Israelis deserve a repeat won't make your case.

@wat0n

Nothing can justify killing.

Since you have done that here, at least you can do it just fine.

As the Quran says, For whoever kills a man, it is as if he had slain mankind entirely.

This idea is also in the Mishnah. Too bad many don't abide by it.

But context can explain it.

Unless the person doing the killing is Israeli. Then, no, context can't explain it and whatever happens to the Israeli is fine.

Am I right?

Not for you, though.

You disregard the past, start every day anew, and are baffled by events.

Since you have lied about the past, indeed, you went as far as to misquote primary sources from the past - again, to justify the October 7 massacre - are you sure you are not the one who disregards the past? I am still waiting for your proof that Zionists started expelling Palestinians from their property prior to 1920.

[ingliz]

@wat0n

All I said was if you live by the sword, expect to die by the sword, and stop whining.

With 75 years of wanton killing, the events of Oct. 7 were to be expected.

Even a worm turns.

[wat0n]

@wat0n

All I said was if you live by the sword, expect to die by the sword, and stop whining.

With 75 years of wanton killing, the events of Oct. 7 were to be expected.

Even a worm turns.

So you are justifying the massacre, then.

And you're also disregarding the massacres dating from 95, 103 and 104 years ago to name a few. Again, if those killed are Jewish, that's OK in your view.

Thank you for reaffirming.

[ingliz]

@wat0n

No

What I am saying is if Israel had not built their state on killing Palestinians willy-nilly, they would not be trying to kill you.

That is not a justification for the killing; it's a statement of the obvious.

[wat0n]

@wat0n

No

What I am saying is if Israel had not built their state on killing Palestinians willy-nilly, they would not be trying to kill you.

That is not a justification for the killing; it's a statement of the obvious.

If Palestinians hadn't committed several massacres on the Jewish population of the area prior to 1948 and even prior to 1930, Israel would have been founded peacefully if we go by this logic.

But you don't apply that logic, because this is not about acts but about who commits those acts and who is victimized by them.

You don't have issues with "what" but with "who".

[ingliz]

@wat0n

Always playing the victim.

It doesn't wash.

[wat0n]

@wat0n

Always playing the victim.

It doesn't wash.

Again, it's about "who", not "what".

One would think victimhood would be assigned individually, having family members killed is horrible for most of us, but not if you're a "rootless cosmopolitan".

[late]

Is this supposed to be a response to what I said?

Nope, it's Israel working overtime to prove me correct.

[wat0n]

Nope, it's Israel working overtime to prove me correct.

As we've discussed before, Israel is not behaving differently from what the US does in similar situations. It seems it's inherent to urban warfare in the 21st century when fighting takes places with civilians around and not something that can be helped.

[ingliz]

@wat0n

Stating the obvious again.

Just because America commits crimes doesn't make Israel innocent.

Between 2003 and 2011, Amnesty International documented US forces' engagement in rampant violations, including indiscriminate attacks that killed and injured civilians, secret detention, secret detainee transfers, enforced disappearance, torture, and other cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment.

[wat0n]

@wat0n

Stating the obvious again.

Just because America commits crimes doesn't make Israel innocent.

Or maybe when fighting takes with civilians around, many will be affected and (yes) killed even if they are not targeted and all feasible precautions are taken to avoid civilian casualties.

And before you say "but they are crimes!" similar behavior was not found to be criminal by the Prosecutor of the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia. So there's clear precedent against this idea.

[Pants-of-dog]

And I said you're wrong. In particular, you are ignoring the fact that the power dynamic has not been constant throughout the conflict.

When Palestinians were powerful, before Israel's reestablishment, there were periodical massacres of the Jewish population, even before 19th-century nationalism like Zionism or Arab nationalism were a thing.

It's odd that you will go back centuries in other cases, but not when the Jewish victims don't live in in Europe or the Americas.

I addressed this.

Please let me know when you have shown that Arab migration into the area was through colonialism, using the economic model associated with colonialism.

Then show it was specifically settler colonialism with the specific economic model that is associated with settler colonialism specifically.

Then, and most importantly, please show it has an impact on the current violence that is happening right now in Gaza.

Those explanations are also based on facts, including footage. Why are you ignoring those facts?

The only footage I know that shows Hamas using a hospital is when they were filmed taking a hostage to a hospital for medical treatment.

Yes, in the sense that members of Hamas (like other people) go to hospitals when they (or people for whom they are responsible) are sick or injured, they “use” hospitals.

But the justification for shutting down every single hospital in Gaza and literally causing mass graves of patients is not a fact. It is a hypothesis.

Hypotheses are not facts.

Netanyahu offered a 2-month ceasefire, exchanging prisoners for hostages and a safe way out for Hamas' leadership in Gaza, and Hamas said no.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-rej ... -hostages/

That same story talks about how Israel has also rejected offers from Hamas.

Do you see that?

[late]

It seems it's inherent to urban warfare..

It's civilian punishment, which is a war crime, a number of other potential criminal charges could be pressed, should the slaughter continue.

[wat0n]

I addressed this.

Please let me know when you have shown that Arab migration into the area was through colonialism, using the economic model associated with colonialism.

Then show it was specifically settler colonialism with the specific economic model that is associated with settler colonialism specifically.

Then, and most importantly, please show it has an impact on the current violence that is happening right now in Gaza.

You did not deal with economics before. Since it's hard to tell what is meant by "the specific economic model that is associated with settler colonialism specifically", it is hard to provide a response.

At least a quick search would yield:

Settler colonialism occurs when colonizers invade and occupy territory to permanently replace the existing society with the society of the colonizers.[1][2][3]

Settler colonialism is a form of exogenous domination typically organized or supported by an imperial authority.[4] Settler colonialism contrasts with exploitation colonialism, which entails an economic policy of conquering territory to exploit its population as cheap or free labor and its natural resources as raw material. In this way, settler colonialism lasts indefinitely, except in the rare event of complete evacuation or settler decolonization.[5]

Settler colonialism was especially prominent in the colonial empires of the European powers between the 16th and 20th centuries. The settling of Boers[6] in South Africa, British,[7] French, Portuguese[8] and Spanish[9] expansion in the Americas as well as the settlement of the Canary Islands by Castile are classical examples of settler colonialism.[10][11]

How exactly didn't the Islamic expansion replace and assimilate existing societies?

The only footage I know that shows Hamas using a hospital is when they were filmed taking a hostage to a hospital for medical treatment.

Yes, in the sense that members of Hamas (like other people) go to hospitals when they (or people for whom they are responsible) are sick or injured, they “use” hospitals.

But the justification for shutting down every single hospital in Gaza and literally causing mass graves of patients is not a fact. It is a hypothesis.

Hypotheses are not facts.

Then you should research more:

That same story talks about how Israel has also rejected offers from Hamas.

Do you see that?

Yes. But Netanyahu's offer falsifies your hypothesis that he is looking for eternally prolonging hostilities.

I also find it odd that you have no issues with granting Hamas the ability to keep ruling Gaza after the massacre, which is also what Hamas is demanding.

It's civilian punishment, which is a war crime, a number of other potential criminal charges could be pressed, should the slaughter continue.

Was Obama punishing civilians in Mosul, then?

AOAV’s data suggests that, up to the beginning of November, 92% of recorded IDF air strikes caused reported civilian casualties: 276 of the 299 recorded IDF strikes in Gaza caused 4,104 civilian casualties (2,798 killed, 1,306 injured).

This means the average number of reported civilians killed per total air strikes (including those not reported as causing civilian casualties) was 9.4. The average number of reported civilians killed per civilian casualty-causing air strike was 10.1.

AOAV’s data for the other conflicts included in the X post shows the current operation to deadlier per air strike than the

Battle of Raqqa, from June 6, 2017 to October 17th, 2017:
161 air strikes, 157 of which caused 1,863 civilian casualties (1,424 killed, 439 injured)
9.1 civilians killed per civilian casualty-causing air strike, 8.8 civilian killed per total air strikes

Other comparisons:

Battle of Mosul: Oct 16, 2016 – Jul 20, 2017:
159 air strikes, 125 of which caused 2,980 civilian casualties (1,914 killed, 1,066 injured)
15.3 civilians killed per civilian casualty-causing air strike, 12.0 civilians killed per total air strikes

Aleppo Offense: Sept 22, 2016 – Oct 16, 2016
21 air strikes, each of which caused 1,134 civilian casualties (446 killed, 688 injured)
21.2 civilians killed per civilian casualty-causing air strike.

[Pants-of-dog]

You did not deal with economics before. Since it's hard to tell what is meant by "the specific economic model that is associated with settler colonialism specifically", it is hard to provide a response.

At least a quick search would yield:

Note that the wiki article text you quote specifically mentions how exploitative colonialism has an economic model that involves enslaving the local population.

Do you see that?

If so, do you also see that this is discussed as being different from settler colonialism?

How exactly didn't the Islamic expansion replace and assimilate existing societies?

Stop asking me to make your argument for you.

Then you should research more:

All I see is an empty space after the colon.

Yes. But Netanyahu's offer falsifies your hypothesis that he is looking for eternally prolonging hostilities.

I also find it odd that you have no issues with granting Hamas the ability to keep ruling Gaza after the massacre, which is also what Hamas is demanding.

No. If Netanyahu knew Hamas would not accept the offer, then he knows he can make those offers all day and never risk ending the war.

[wat0n]

Note that the wiki article text you quote specifically mentions how exploitative colonialism has an economic model that involves enslaving the local population.

Do you see that?

If so, do you also see that this is discussed as being different from settler colonialism?

I specifically cited what settler colonialism is about.

It is also noteworthy that the Arab identity of Palestinians, Syrians, Egyptians, Jordanians, Libyans, Algerians, Moroccans and Lebanese would itself be an example of settler colonialism under this framework.

Stop asking me to make your argument for you.

I already made my argument.

If you want an example of that of assimilation under the settler colonialism framework, the forced conversion to Islam or second class status of the conquered peoples who did not convert under threat of death, including but not limited to ghettoization and being subjected to punitive taxation, was quite similar to how the Spanish conquered most of America.

If seen from this perspective, the movement of minorities like Jews, Maronite Christians, Kurds or Assyrians to assert their identity and autonomy would actually be an example of decolonization and so would be the terrorism by the likes of Irgun or Lehi - not all that different from South American indigenistas using whatever means necessary to "decolonize" even though the South American republics have been around for 200+ years now and neither Spain nor Portugal control territory in the continent.

Hence, why I ask: How useful is this analytical approach? It sounds like crap and is indeed crap.

All I see is an empty space after the colon.

It seems the forum is trying to embed the video. Here's the URL:

Code: Select allhttps://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/11/13/hospital-gaza-al-quds-idf-terrorist-hamas-rpg-launcher-vpx.cnn

No. If Netanyahu knew Hamas would not accept the offer, then he knows he can make those offers all day and never risk ending the war.

The same could be said about Hamas making demands it knows Israel won't accept.

Although I can imagine Hamas' leadership in Gaza taking the offer to leave as a way to end the war. Arafat did the same in Lebanon in 1982.