[wat0n]

Since you are not supporting your argument, I am going to ignore any claims about Arab settler colonialism.

It seems you, as usual, are lying and ignoring the facts that don't support your views.

No one claimed they were.

Instead, the claim was that the founding groups of Israel in 1948 were not Jewish communities from within Palestine that had been there since Biblical times.

Those Jewish communities were also among the Jews that reestablished Israel in 1948. They were just joined by many Jews returning from the diaspora.

There is also another fallacy, namely, the implicit idea that the Jews in Palestine had no ties to the diaspora. This is not true and the diaspora communities constantly contributed, financially, to the community in the area - specially those within the Ottoman Empire, since they were effectively part of the same country.

No. The footage shows a single fighter ducking behind cover. It does not show the totality of hospitals in Gaza used in such a way as to require them all being shut down.

That would be required by a structure like settler colonialism or an event like ethnic cleansing.

Yet it does show that Hamas uses hospitals as cover, ensuring that does not happen anymore is a legitimate goal.

No, because you will invariably decide that because I did not prove this to your satisfaction, Hamas definitely used the hospital as a command centre despite the complete lack of evidence.

My behaviour has no impact on your lack of evidence.

Actually, I claimed Hamas used the hospital for military purposes. This is much broader than just using it as a command center.

For instance, quartering fighters inside is clearly a military purpose.

Intelligence agencies also believe Hamas was using Al Shifa for military purposes and had enough time to clear the place of all the potentially sensitive material.

[ingliz]

settler colonialism

The early Zionist settlers (1881-1914) called themselves colonists.

Nothing has changed.

Of the 370 Jewish towns and villages established by the Israeli government between 1948 and 1953, 350 were built on land confiscated from Palestinians.

Since 1948, the government has authorized the creation of more than 900 “Jewish localities”.

A 2003 Israeli government-commissioned report found that “many Arab towns and villages were surrounded by land designated for purposes such as security zones, Jewish regional councils, national parks, and nature reserves or highways, which prevent or impede the possibility of their expansion in the future.”

[wat0n]

...And many Palestinians in the West Bank and also in Jerusalem live in properties that were confiscated from Jews in the 1948 war and also the 1929 massacres.

What's your point, @ingliz?

[Pants-of-dog]

@wat0n

1. Provide evidence that Islamic settler colonialism existed in the last and is having a real and significant impact today in Palestine.

2. Name the local communities of Jewish people who were instrumental in founding the modern state of Israel and show how long each community had been there.

Note that the foreign Jews who helped with money and other resources are the foreign nation acting as a colonizer in the structure of settler colonialism.

3. It is a fact that the IDF has stopped Gazans from being able to get medical care, in the midst of an aerial bombardment campaign.

4. It is not a fact that Hanas has used hospitals for a military purpose.

5. Thank you for presenting evidence that even if hospitals were used by Hamas in the past, they were vacated by the time the IDAf attacked them.

[late]

1. Provide evidence that Islamic settler colonialism existed in the last and is having a real and significant impact today in Palestine.

Most of the time, he's throwing crap at the wall, hoping it will stick.

Which is why you chasing him around helps him..

[wat0n]

@wat0n

1. Provide evidence that Islamic settler colonialism existed in the last and is having a real and significant impact today in Palestine.

Why are most Palestinians Sunni Arab and not Christians or even Jews?

2. Name the local communities of Jewish people who were instrumental in founding the modern state of Israel and show how long each community had been there.

Sure, knock yourself out

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Yishuv

Note that the foreign Jews who helped with money and other resources are the foreign nation acting as a colonizer in the structure of settler colonialism.

Not really. Even more so since they were contributing to the Old Yishuv by sending donations through the halukka system. A community that is indisputably not comprised of settler colonists since it exists since Roman times and includes Jews who returned prior to the rise of Zionism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halukka

This is very similar to how diaspora Palestinian communities donate to the Palestinians living in Gaza, the West Bank and other countries.

3. It is a fact that the IDF has stopped Gazans from being able to get medical care, in the midst of an aerial bombardment campaign.

It is also a fact that Hamas uses Gaza's civilian infrastructure, including its medical infrastructure, for military ends.

4. It is not a fact that Hanas has used hospitals for a military purpose.

I showed you a video flagrantly showing a Hamas fighter using the Al Quds hospital for cover.

5. Thank you for presenting evidence that even if hospitals were used by Hamas in the past, they were vacated by the time the IDAf attacked them.

This is yet another lie about what happened to Al Shifa, and still ignores the footage of Hamas using Al Quds as cover.

[ingliz]

@wat0n

Settlements ...

The Allon Plan ('68), the Sharon Plan ('77), and the Drobles Plan ('79) all aimed to break the contiguity of Palestinian population centres in the West Bank, making it harder to create a viable Palestinian state. This continued under the Labor-Likud national unity government ('84-90). While the establishment of new settlements may have slowed at this time, new settlements still appeared in all four of the Sharon Plan's zones. From '90-92, under a Likud government, two new settlements were built in Samaria. From 1992 through 2020, seven settlements and over 100 outposts were constructed.

My point is in 55 years, nothing has changed. Israel is still grabbing land.

[wat0n]

@wat0n

Settlements ...

The Allon Plan ('68), the Sharon Plan ('77), and the Drobles Plan ('79) all aimed to break the contiguity of Palestinian population centres in the West Bank, making it harder to create a viable Palestinian state. This continued under the Labor-Likud national unity government ('84-90). While the establishment of new settlements may have slowed at this time, new settlements still appeared in all four of the Sharon Plan's zones. From '90- 92, under a Likud government, two new settlements were built in Samaria. From 1992 through 2020, seven Israeli settlements and over 100 outposts were constructed.

My point is in 55 years, nothing has changed. Israel is still grabbing land.

And you are still ignoring that some (but not all) of that land was in fact owned and inhabited by Jews.

Why are you ignoring that land grab by the Palestinians?

[Pants-of-dog]

Why are most Palestinians Sunni Arab and not Christians or even Jews?

according to www.iAsk.ai Ask Ai Answer Engine:

Historical Context

The predominant Sunni Arab identity among Palestinians can be attributed to historical, social, and demographic factors. The region historically has been predominantly Arab and Muslim, and over time, the majority of the population adopted Sunni Islam as their religious identity. The following factors contribute to the prevalence of Sunni Arab identity among Palestinians:

Islamic Conquest and Spread of Islam

The Islamic conquest of the Levant in the 7th century led to the spread of Islam in the region, including what is now known as Palestine. This conquest resulted in the conversion of a significant portion of the population to Islam, particularly to the Sunni branch, which became the dominant sect in the area.

Demographic Shifts

Over centuries, demographic shifts occurred due to various factors such as migration, intermarriage, and cultural assimilation. These shifts further solidified the Sunni Arab identity within the Palestinian population.

Ottoman Rule

During the Ottoman Empire’s rule over the region for several centuries, Islam was a unifying factor among its subjects. The empire’s administration and policies reinforced Islamic identity and contributed to the prevalence of Sunni Islam among Palestinians.

Modern Political Dynamics

In modern times, political developments have also played a role in shaping Palestinian identity. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict and the struggle for self-determination have contributed to a collective sense of Palestinian national identity, which is often intertwined with their Sunni Arab heritage.

Christian and Jewish Minorities

While Sunni Arabs constitute the majority of Palestinians, there are also significant Christian and smaller Jewish communities within Palestine. The historical presence of these communities dates back to ancient times, and they have coexisted alongside their Muslim counterparts. However, due to various historical events and circumstances, including emigration and geopolitical changes, their numbers have decreased compared to the Sunni Arab population.

In conclusion, the prevalence of Sunni Arab identity among Palestinians is deeply rooted in historical conquests, demographic shifts, religious influences, and modern political dynamics. While there are Christian and Jewish minorities within Palestine, the majority identification as Sunni Arabs reflects centuries of historical and social development.

https://iask.ai/?mode=question&options[detail_level]=detailed&q=Why+are+most+Palestinians+Sunni+Arab+and+not+Christians+or+even+Jews%3F

Sure, knock yourself out

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Yishuv

Not really. Even more so since they were contributing to the Old Yishuv by sending donations through the halukka system. A community that is indisputably not comprised of settler colonists since it exists since Roman times and includes Jews who returned prior to the rise of Zionism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halukka

This is very similar to how diaspora Palestinian communities donate to the Palestinians living in Gaza, the West Bank and other countries.

This is not a community.

It is a label given to a series of communities that lived in Palestine during the Ottoman era, all of which seem to have died out prior to the founding of Israel.

It is also a fact that Hamas uses Gaza's civilian infrastructure, including its medical infrastructure, for military ends.

No.

This is not a fact. It is an accusation and a justification used by the IDF when attacking hospitals.

So you see the difference? It is an excuse, not a fact.

I showed you a video flagrantly showing a Hamas fighter using the Al Quds hospital for cover.

Yea, you did. Do you see how this does not fit the bill of using the hospital for military purposes?

This is yet another lie about what happened to Al Shifa, and still ignores the footage of Hamas using Al Quds as cover.

You literally just said “ Intelligence agencies…. believe Hamas …. had enough time to clear the place of all the potentially sensitive material”.

If that is a lie, then you told the lie.

Maybe stop gaslighting yourself?

[wat0n]

https://iask.ai/?mode=question&options[detail_level]=detailed&q=Why+are+most+Palestinians+Sunni+Arab+and+not+Christians+or+even+Jews%3F

So you admit this settler colonialism still affects the region, to this day.

This is not a community.

It is a label given to a series of communities that lived in Palestine during the Ottoman era, all of which seem to have died out prior to the founding of Israel.

This is an arbitrary distinction, and no, they did not "die out". They were joined by new arrivals.

No.

This is not a fact. It is an accusation and a justification used by the IDF when attacking hospitals.

So you see the difference? It is an excuse, not a fact.

It is a fact, one verified by video footage at that.

Yea, you did. Do you see how this does not fit the bill of using the hospital for military purposes?

It does. The fighter knows he's a lot less likely to be attacked by Israel because he's in the hospital compound.

You literally just said “ Intelligence agencies…. believe Hamas …. had enough time to clear the place of all the potentially sensitive material”.

If that is a lie, then you told the lie.

Maybe stop gaslighting yourself?

No, it's not a lie. The hospital was being used for military purposes at the start of the war, and in any event there is also footage of the guns found there.

This is yet another dishonest take. Just like your pretense that you do not justify the October 7th massacre.

[Pants-of-dog]

So you admit this settler colonialism still affects the region, to this day.

No, you misread.

There is no mention of settler colonialism or forced conversion anywhere in the text.

This is an arbitrary distinction, and no, they did not "die out". They were joined by new arrivals.

Not according to the wiki article. The wiki article notes that these communities were dependent on foreign money which dried up with the beginnings of Zionism.

It is a fact, one verified by video footage at that.

So you do not see. Okay.

It does. The fighter knows he's a lot less likely to be attacked by Israel because he's in the hospital compound.

No. He knows, instead, that he is just as likely to be attacked by Israel and he also knows that Israel is deliberately attacking hospitals.

So he is (successfully, I assume) trying to goad Israel into attacking hospitals and looking like the Bad Guys.

No, it's not a lie.

Then we agree that Hamas had time to evacuate not only all their troops but any evidence of their presence long before the IDF took the hospital.

So we logically can postulate that when the IDF attacked, Hamas was not using the hospital for military purposes.

This is then verified by the lack of any evidence, as confirmed by the intelligence analysis you just cited.

[wat0n]

No, you misread.

There is no mention of settler colonialism or forced conversion anywhere in the text.

The Islamic conquest and the conversions it brought is mentioned explicitly in the AI generated text you quoted.

Not according to the wiki article. The wiki article notes that these communities were dependent on foreign money which dried up with the beginnings of Zionism.

On foreign donation by Jews, and that's because there was a change in approach towards self-reliance when the Zionists began to arrive. Besides, even then there were donations but those were aiming to advance Zionism along with improving the lives of recipients.

So you do not see. Okay.

The footage is the footage, why deny it I wonder?

No. He knows, instead, that he is just as likely to be attacked by Israel and he also knows that Israel is deliberately attacking hospitals.

So he is (successfully, I assume) trying to goad Israel into attacking hospitals and looking like the Bad Guys.

If this was the case, he would not be openly carrying RPGs. He'd drop or hide whatever weapons he's carrying, to avoid being targeted.

Then we agree that Hamas had time to evacuate not only all their troops but any evidence of their presence long before the IDF took the hospital.

So we logically can postulate that when the IDF attacked, Hamas was not using the hospital for military purposes.

This is then verified by the lack of any evidence, as confirmed by the intelligence analysis you just cited.

Why were guns found in the hospital?

How was Israel supposed to know that Hamas had already done all of this before taking control of the hospital?

And why do you ignore the evidence both Israel and the US have to state Hamas used Al Shifa for military purposes after October 7?

Again, more disingenuous takes.

But not surprising, it's how desperation looks like.

[Pants-of-dog]

The Islamic conquest and the conversions it brought is mentioned explicitly in the AI generated text you quoted.

You have not provided any evidence at all for forced assimilation or settler colonialism.

On foreign donation by Jews, and that's because there was a change in approach towards self-reliance when the Zionists began to arrive. Besides, even then there were donations but those were aiming to advance Zionism along with improving the lives of recipients.

Not according to the wiki article.

The footage is the footage, why deny it I wonder?

If this was the case, he would not be openly carrying RPGs. He'd drop or hide whatever weapons he's carrying, to avoid being targeted.

No, the exact opposite.

Why were guns found in the hospital?

Most plausible scenario is that an IDF member who does not know what an MRI is plated the guns there.

How was Israel supposed to know that Hamas had already done all of this before taking control of the hospital?

I think they did.

And why do you ignore the evidence both Israel and the US have to state Hamas used Al Shifa for military purposes after October 7?

Because you never presented it.

[wat0n]

You have not provided any evidence at all for forced assimilation or settler colonialism.

Only if you deny the second class status of some non-Muslims (Jews, Christians and the other "Peoples of the Book"), and the forced conversion of everyone else.

These are verifiable historical facts.

Not according to the wiki article.

Did you even read the article?

Modern equivalents
In the aftermath of World War I, the halukka system continued to splinter, with the formation of groups such as Tomchei Yotsei Anglia for the support of scholars originally from England.

The halukka system was not abolished with the founding of the State of Israel in 1948; it continues amongst Orthodox Jews under the auspices of a number of organizations, such as:

Kupath Rabbi Meir Baal Haness
Kolel Polen
the general united charity of Rabbi Meir Baal Haneis Salant[citation needed]
Kolel Shomrei HaChomos
Kolel Chibas Yerushalayim
Kollel Zibenbergen

These are separate from other donations like those managed by the Keren Hayesod.

No, the exact opposite.

This doesn't make sense.

He would not walk around openly carrying a RPG if he felt it is likely he'd be killed.

Most plausible scenario is that an IDF member who does not know what an MRI is plated the guns there.

Prove this, and explain why would Hamas or Islamic Jihad members be more likely to know what a MRI is.

I think they did.

Prove this.

Because you never presented it.

I am not the US or Israeli intelligence.

You could ask the ICJ about this, given it did not order Israel to unilaterally announce a ceasefire.

[Pants-of-dog]

Only if you deny the second class status of some non-Muslims (Jews, Christians and the other "Peoples of the Book"), and the forced conversion of everyone else.

These are verifiable historical facts.

Do you think that a social hierarchy must be and can only be settler colonialism and forced assimilation? Always and in every situation?

Did you even read the article?

Yea.

These are separate from other donations like those managed by the Keren Hayesod.

Not that article.

The one about the Old Yeshiv. That piece of text makes no mention as to who received (or did not receive) the money, The other article does,

I suggest you read all your sources.

This doesn't make sense.

He would not walk around openly carrying a RPG if he felt it is likely he'd be killed.

It is a war.

In war, you carry weapons and attack others. And you can expect to be attacked.

In this war, any Arab male can expect to be attacked regardless of weapons or lack thereof.

Prove this, and explain why would Hamas or Islamic Jihad members be more likely to know what a MRI is.

Hamas members were supposedly in the hospital when it was a working hospital. The hospital technicians would have told Hamas not to put the guns there.

Prove this.

They had the hospital in their sights for four days before the final attack. Even an ignoramus would be able to predict an imminent attack.

I am not the US or Israeli intelligence.

You could ask the ICJ about this, given it did not order Israel to unilaterally announce a ceasefire.

You asked a question. I answered it.

If you want me to look at something, you have to bring it to the proverbial table.

[wat0n]

Do you think that a social hierarchy must be and can only be settler colonialism and forced assimilation? Always and in every situation?

You tell me.

Although you are STILL ignoring the forced conversions issue, and this includes some Christians and Jews.

Not that article.

The one about the Old Yeshiv. That piece of text makes no mention as to who received (or did not receive) the money, The other article does,

I suggest you read all your sources.

So you accept, then, that the article specifically dealing with halukka did include this information.

It is a war.

In war, you carry weapons and attack others. And you can expect to be attacked.

In this war, any Arab male can expect to be attacked regardless of weapons or lack thereof.

Yet Hamas fighters were quick to hide or drop their weapons when Israeli helicopters began to be deployed to the border with Gaza during the October 7th massacre. So they actually do understand that there are places where they are more likely to be killed for carrying arms than others.

Hamas members were supposedly in the hospital when it was a working hospital. The hospital technicians would have told Hamas not to put the guns there.

Maybe, or maybe they would have done so anyway.

They had the hospital in their sights for four days before the final attack. Even an ignoramus would be able to predict an imminent attack.

You did not prove what I requested. I want you to prove Israel attacked Al Shifa knowing it was not used for military purposes by Hamas.

You asked a question. I answered it.

If you want me to look at something, you have to bring it to the proverbial table.

OK, please explain why didn't the ICJ just order Israel to stop all military operations and leave Gaza.

[Pants-of-dog]

You tell me.

Although you are STILL ignoring the forced conversions issue, and this includes some Christians and Jews.

If you are asking me, I will say no.

You seem to think the answer is yes.

So you accept, then, that the article specifically dealing with halukka did include this information.

Irrelevant.

Yet Hamas fighters were quick to hide or drop their weapons when Israeli helicopters began to be deployed to the border with Gaza during the October 7th massacre. So they actually do understand that there are places where they are more likely to be killed for carrying arms than others.

Yea. And?

Maybe, or maybe they would have done so anyway.

No, because then the hospital would not have been able to use the MRI.

Hamas would have needed to force the doctors to keep the guns in that room. This would then have led to their testimony being used as evidence against Hamas. The lack of any such testimony contradicts this idea.

If instead the IDF or you wish to argue that the hospital was in cahoots with Hamas, then Hamas would have stored the weapons somewhere convenient for the hospital; i.e. almost anywhere except where the guns were found.

You did not prove what I requested. I want you to prove Israel attacked Al Shifa knowing it was not used for military purposes by Hamas.

…..and so by the end of the fourth day, even a moron would have known the hospital was no longer being used for military purposes, if it ever was.

OK, please explain why didn't the ICJ just order Israel to stop all military operations and leave Gaza.

Wrong thread.

[wat0n]

If you are asking me, I will say no.

You seem to think the answer is yes.

Why not?

You have not defended your position.

Irrelevant.

Not at all. I take that as a yes, so you were in fact trying to gaslight.

Yea. And?

...And therefore he felt it was unlikely he would be killed while inside hospital grounds.

No, because then the hospital would not have been able to use the MRI.

Hamas would have needed to force the doctors to keep the guns in that room. This would then have led to their testimony being used as evidence against Hamas. The lack of any such testimony contradicts this idea.

If instead the IDF or you wish to argue that the hospital was in cahoots with Hamas, then Hamas would have stored the weapons somewhere convenient for the hospital; i.e. almost anywhere except where the guns were found.

I don't see why not.

It seems there were UNRWA employees who participated in the October 7th massacre:

SERIOUS ALLEGATIONS AGAINST UNRWA STAFF IN THE GAZA STRIP
26 January 2024
From Philippe Lazzarini, UNRWA Commissioner-General

AMMAN,

“The Israeli Authorities have provided UNRWA with information about the alleged involvement of several UNRWA employees in the horrific attacks on Israel on 7 October.

“To protect the Agency’s ability to deliver humanitarian assistance, I have taken the decision to immediately terminate the contracts of these staff members and launch an investigation in order to establish the truth without delay. Any UNRWA employee who was involved in acts of terror will be held accountable, including through criminal prosecution.

“UNRWA reiterates its condemnation in the strongest possible terms of the abhorrent attacks of 7 October and calls for the immediate and unconditional release of all Israeli hostages and their safe return to their families.

“These shocking allegations come as more than 2 million people in Gaza depend on lifesaving assistance that the Agency has been providing since the war began. Anyone who betrays the fundamental values of the United Nations also betrays those whom we serve in Gaza, across the region and elsewhere around the world”.



ENDs-

So why couldn't some hospital employees be in cahoots with Hamas?

Also, let's say they asked Hamas to remove the guns from the MRI room. Hamas says no.

What happens then?

And what happens to those who are under the Gaza Ministry of Health's payroll? Keeping in mind it's controlled by Hamas, would they speak against their employer?

…..and so by the end of the fourth day, even a moron would have known the hospital was no longer being used for military purposes, if it ever was.

How so?

In particular, even storing weapons is a military purpose. How can one know that without searching it?

Wrong thread.

Very much related, however. The ICJ also got classified evidence from Israel's military and, in particular, of its orders and targeting policies.

[Pants-of-dog]

Why not?

You have not defended your position.

Because it is unnecessary to defend the position that a social hierarchy does not have to be settler colonialism and forced assimilation always and in every situation.

This is because any person who has ever been part of a social hierarchy knows there are examples of social hierarchy that have nothing to do with settler colonialism and forced assimilation.

If you believe otherwise, please present an argument.

...And therefore he felt it was unlikely he would be killed while inside hospital grounds.

That does not logically follow.

I don't see why not.

It seems there were UNRWA employees who participated in the October 7th massacre:

So why couldn't some hospital employees be in cahoots with Hamas?

Also, let's say they asked Hamas to remove the guns from the MRI room. Hamas says no.

What happens then?

Then this contradicts the idea that Hamas and the hospital were in cahoots.

And what happens to those who are under the Gaza Ministry of Health's payroll? Keeping in mind it's controlled by Hamas, would they speak against their employer?

If the people liberating them are there to get rid of their oppressors, there would be ample reason to provide testimony.

How so?

In particular, even storing weapons is a military purpose. How can one know that without searching it?

Are you seriously asking why they thought the IDF were about to attack?

Because the IDF surrounded them, pointed guns at them, and told them they were attacking.

Even before that. the IDF cut them off, which is why the hospital had to dig a mass grave for the patients who died because of the IDF blockade.

Give me one plausible reason why Hamas would still be sticking around or leaving anything behind at that point.

[wat0n]

Because it is unnecessary to defend the position that a social hierarchy does not have to be settler colonialism and forced assimilation always and in every situation.

This is because any person who has ever been part of a social hierarchy knows there are examples of social hierarchy that have nothing to do with settler colonialism and forced assimilation.

If you believe otherwise, please present an argument.

You have yet to address the fact that this social hierarchy was imposed by the recent conquerors of the region. We are not talking about a tribal society with its own social hierarchy.

Note that under the Umayyads, Arab Muslims were at the top. This includes those coming from the Arabian Peninsula.

That does not logically follow.

It follows from their verifiable behavior.

Then this contradicts the idea that Hamas and the hospital were in cahoots.

How so? As long as staff salaries remain under the purview of the Ministry of Health, they have every reason not to speak against Hamas.

If the people liberating them are there to get rid of their oppressors, there would be ample reason to provide testimony.

Unless, of course, they still depend on Hamas.

Are you seriously asking why they thought the IDF were about to attack?

Because the IDF surrounded them, pointed guns at them, and told them they were attacking.

Even before that. the IDF cut them off, which is why the hospital had to dig a mass grave for the patients who died because of the IDF blockade.

Give me one plausible reason why Hamas would still be sticking around or leaving anything behind at that point.

No, I am asking you how could Israel know Al Shifa was not being used for military purposes anymore (which, as we know, it still was regardless), despite their intelligence, without being physically present.