bos,
please compare, exactly the nazi ghetto to "gaza ghetto".
egypt is closing gaza. they are suffering, but its a siege- its not a nazi ghetto- in its base.

and please convince why the current policy of israel, you call the "zionists" is facist and nazional europian. please explain.

The Jews were robbed, not only by Nazis, also by different Fascist Groups, the Fashos divided between them the Property of the Jews (who where rich because traditionaly bankers), they took their homes, companies... And had also 1 to deport them or 2 to kill them, they wanted first to deport you either to the Krim or to Madagascar...the rest is known...

The Jews who survide were forced to leave in a narrow place, and there was also a smuggling in place of food, cigarettes and weapons like in Gaza





And if they made troubles they got bombed, by their guards.



The Ghetto served for propaganda reasons, the Nazis knew the effects of few food and overpopulation to show how unhygienic and bad this people are.... Israel can simply not do more with them because Israel risks then the inteference of other states.

They make also uprisings.


Israel is not a fascist state because of elections, but the Apartheid hold also elections.

You have also an extreme millitarisation (3 Years of millitary duty for each Jew with Israeli passport). You have also a racial definition of a nation (You make also DNS-Tests to prove if immigrants who want your citizenship have Jewish ancestors). This racial Jews Mostly from Russia, have more Rights then people whose Grandfather lived there.

very not true. its your personal point of view. but we do learn from your statement gaza is not the nazi ghetto. that is the only true meaning from that statement.

- gaza isnt a ghetto- israel created them a state.
please answer- why egypt keep the siege on gaza. gaza has a boarder to israel and to egypt. israel has a right to disconnect herself from gaza.
you have said yourself the people in gaza multiply. thats the answer.
why the people in gaza doesnt look like the starves in ethiopia or the jews in the ghetto? perhaps- its all the different in the world?

as to the siege, who is faaaaar away from nazi ghetto, why is it?
how many busses jews exploded in germany? did jews attacked half of germany for years?
the motivation of the germans is not a motivation of a war- which is different.
second, the gaza siege is far different than nazi policy and acts.
this compare is false in all the manings and aspects.


i think you live in a movie.


please, step by step, compare apartheid to israeli policy.
remember- there are 1 million israeli arabs- fully citizenship and tights, also in the parlament.
please check aspect by aspect if there is any compare between apertheid and israeli policy tword the arabs.
be accurate.

second- there are 2.5 million arabs in self autonomy- Hamastan in gaza and PLO in west bank. they vote for their own parlament and have the rights they shows there. those are the two kinds of arabs in israel.

please, i'm waiting for deep research if you say such hard accusation.


the reality is extreme. if israel was in switzerland, and have an army not proportional to its serounding, there could be a truth in your claim.
https://users.cs.jmu.edu/abzugcx/public/Biblical-Hebrew/Map-of-Israel-&-the-Arab-World-plus-Iran.bmp


israel gave citizenship to 100,000 arabs during the 90'.
second, i know jews immigranted- and they didnt tell your claim on DNA.

third, israel gave more citizenship to non jews than switzerland could ever dare.
it is bad to israel ofcaurse. but hey, no one could compare to switzerland policy of immigration.
the DNA as a total policy- lie.
fourth, the grand grandpas of the ejws lived in israel. thats all the point of zionism.

O.K.

About Israel I will shut up. You have to find your solution, and for a conlfict it needs allways 2 sides.


If you want to kill each other nobody can prevent this.

true.

violence and wars:

the problem of Israel- its located in a very not stable era. there are extrimism movements and idiologies which affected some of the Arabs, include the Arabs in Israel.

problem 2- there are nations which strategicly involves in other countries. strategicly- Iran and Russia. Russia is the country who is building Iran's nuclear reactors. traditionaly, Russia always supported the enemies of Israel, she builded the armies for the Arab countries around Israel and caused directly the war of 1967 and 1973. - the middle east is a very strategic area and is the middle of the cold war. it never over btw. Russia builds the armies of Iran and Syria today- Gaza is actualy controled by Iran- Hamas is Iran's small army.
-> there are giants which arms both of the sides to prevent the other axis. this affects israel, and the palestinians, see gaza- are a tool, same as Israel.

as to Israel now- its extremely small area. the problem -the "west bank", is actualy an area of mountains, which from there you can see and phisicly control and hurt all of Israel. Israel can never realy give up her centre- the "west bank", though she gave an autonomy to the arabs there "palestine".

the violence will remain in whole the region- Iraq, Darfur-Sudan, Israel, Lebanon, Iran, Yemen. I personaly realy dont want another war. but its very explossive area. because the cold war, because its the centre of the scilence conflict (USA #Russia # China) and three of them, specialy Russia and USA are giving too many weapons to everybody here. USA cant tomorrow stop giving weapons to her allys here- because the next day the allys of Russia will eat the rest of the region. And international idiology of Bin Laden affects terrorists more than 'Israelis wants a war or not'- they have their own decisions and free choice.

the future (specialy after Putin is giving Atom bombs to Iran, and Iran is giving weapons to terrorists in Israel and in Iraq)- seems to be bloody. and i dont see light in the edge of the tunnle.

The Iranians do not gave away also their Biological or chemical weapons to Hezbollah or Hamas so this danger is not real. Hamas was once a terrorist movement, now it is something like an Army, you can make peace, therefore you have to negotiate with the Hamas, radicalisation is an reaction on something.

Iran didnt gave its biological weapon to hizbollah. she just gave them 8,000 "regular" missles.
Hizbollah and Hamas are Iran's small army. the main army is in Iran origin.
Hamas is indeed a small army who is attacking Israel. The reasons are not only local- but also global- extremism in religious combine with attacks of those movements against non - islamic targets. Yet peace is needd, and to accept his targets is quite hard- to surrender to Islam law, he calim ISrael has no right to exist, etc etc. its a little bit problematic, u see?

The US is giving you also 3 Billions for Millitary. You mean Ahmadinejad, recently he said that he will accept an Peace-Agreement if the Hamas agrees.

They are trained by Pasdaran, the Persians understand much more how to organize a Millitary then the Arabs.

Actually they are trained, funded, and supplied by Pasdaran (also known as the IRGC). And you're half-correct: it's not military organization. It's actually smart usage of controlled third parties to achieve strategic ends, in this case the destruction of Israel.

With Nasserism (Pan Arab Nationalism), it was direct military conflict along with some usage of the Palestinians for (I'm assuming) reasons that they would take over governance of that territory once it had been conquered by Egypt, Jordan, and Syria. The Six Day War pretty much proved that Israel could hold her own and pretty much defeat any attackers at that level. Iran also had a direct conflict with Iraq in the 1980's and suffered tremendously even though they put up a good fight; most of this was due to heavy aid from the Europeans on the Iraqi side - The US and Russia actually aided both sides to varying degrees. So the Iranians have learned that direct action extracts a heavy cost.

Now with the current policy Iran has of covertly training terrorist groups via the IRGC to essentially fight the fight for them within another country, they don't have to get their hands dirty. There is the plausible deniability, if there is failure. If there is success then Tehran reaps the rewards. Actually, I'd be half tempted to say that the Iranians paid attention real well at Russia and the US's covert operations in the area during the Cold War and took it to the next level by solidifying the common goal with their own brand of Islamism.

They are Rebels or Guerillas. Do not play the savior of the Jews, according to American-Christians, who support Israel, has a messiah to come, and if the Jews deny to convert to christianity they all have to be slaughted. Imagine somebody comes who says he is the Messiah and the Americans believe it, the Jews not...



I am not principaly against a Jewish State on Palestinian Land. My Position towards the Jewish state is that if this state has to survive he needs peace, a truly peace. Or the History will repeat that the Jewish state did not last for long, x time was this state founded and the Jewish people made strategic mistakes to lose this state.


Terrorism is for me simply an sort of warfare (Bomb blasts...)

One thing to consider Bosnjak: If on the remote chance that Hamas is victorious in its ends and brings about the destruction of Israel, will the Palestinians rule their own land from Palestine and control their own destiny as an independent nation -or- will they end up as lapdogs to a bunch of Persian mullahs in Tehran and be forced into resistance (an intifada of sorts) against their former benefactors from Iran? My guess is the latter.

I agree with you however though that both sides need peace. Not to be cliched, but the moderates on both sides need to muzzle the extremists and work towards a compromise that mutually benefits both the Israeli and the Palestinian people.

The Extremists have to find a solution, if not, Israel will lose, Israel is in an constan war since the founding, and without an option to win, the Arabs are simply too many.

Israel is still in a better position but this will change sooner or later, and then is no peace deal possible.

I would recomend the Israelis to read again Thedor Herzl writings, I read them in the original Language German, and Israel is far away from his vision.

I assume you're referring to Der Judenstaat. What aspect of that work were you specifically referring to ? There is the part where he referred to the Jewish state as being neutral and potentially offering to handle the finances of the Muslim Sultan (in his case Turkey). A lot had changed not just in the Middle East but all over the world between 1896 when that was written and 1948 when Israel was established. Were you referring to his statements that the establishing the Jewish state to some place other than Palestine was possible? (Palestine here referred to by as the territory encompassed by the British Mandate, not in its current context)

I refer to Herzl vision of a peacfull living, and did Herzl demand Jerusalem?

He wanted simply a cultural homeland for the Jews in Palestine. Himself was an entirely assimilated Jew, who recognized that he is a Jew by the Dreifuss Tribunal.

bosnjak, zionism is more than Hertzel, though he is a very important figure.
in the 16 th centuary Shabtai Zevi have woke up the Jews in Israel and Europe, though quickly was arrested by the Ottman and the Zionism sank till the 19th centuary.
The otopian book of Hertzel is one of thousands of books about zionism. this is a story, very important one, Hertzel was one of many zionists, he had very agnostic view yet ottopian. you shall read thousands of books of jews in that period, also other zionists who argued with Hertzel.
Try "echad haam" and jebutinski, who have written in the early 30' very frightning views about the nazis including his fear the nazis might kill around 6 million jews. - he was a very smart person, one of Lehi organization who have fought the british colonialists in that time. ... you cannot build your whole conclusion about zionism from a narrow prespective.

I believe that the Jewish state should have been placed in a fertile region of Germany instead of kicking out the Palestinians and establishing their state there. The likelihood of Israelis and Palestinians living in peace with one another is extremely low.

Forcing people out of their homes and relocating them is not a way to peacefully inhabit a place.

I am opposed to the Israeli state where it currently is, so you can say I am anti-Zionist. But I am not opposed to a Jewish state somewhere in Germany, as long as they don't force its current inhabitants out of their homes and are given equal rights as those of the Jewish faith.

And Jews that have a distant connection to Israel and/or have never set foot there nor know anyone living there currently yet still have more rights in Israel than those of Palestinians that have been there for centuries is absolutely ludicrous.

After all that trouble they went through to get them out of there? That would be just mean.

cuban, relocate yourself in Germany. how dare you claim Israel should belong to Arabs?!

Arabs are independent. be it Syrian Arabs or Saudian Arabs, or "palestinian" Arabs. There are nearly 4 million Arabs in Israel. If they search for an Arab rejime or a Shariyah rejime, they have a whole empire spread just for them.

the yellow is the large Arab empire. the term "palestinian" is just location, a small district in their de facto empire.


haven't you noticed jews, be it in Egypt slavoury or in Germany, never raised farms in any place beside Zion?
i'm a shame to discuss about it. its like you will suggest a chineese to have a country in south america instead of in china. you deeply insulted me.

Sure "Palestine" is just a location, but to force inhabitants of a location out of their homes and make them second class just because you want it to be your location is ridiculous.

LehmanB, do you think it would be right if Serbians forced out Bosnians from their homes, relocated them, made them second class citizens and used the excuse that "If you are not happy, there are plenty of people like you in Bosnia and other Balkan countries."

This is just an example, I am not saying Serbians are actually doing this, of course.

We barely got any land in the UN Mandate of 1947, yet we still accepted it, and the Arab League did not and kept saying "there will not be a non-Muslim country in Muslim land". We declared our own independence. Really if the Arabs had just accepted it, they would have got all the holy cities, and a lot of the fertile land.



What does Germany have to do with anything? Holocaust does not equal Zionism. Zionism is not a reaction the holocaust. It was started hundreds of years before the holocaust. The holocaust was just icing on the cake that made us say, "Fuck it, we're not taking this shit again".



Bosnians don't have a whole empire to go to. Bosnians did not invade Serbia and make it a "Bosnian holy land".

What you don't seem to get is that dividing Jerusalem is like divide Mecca. Except we're not huge religious dicks like them so we'll actually listen to their proposed plans.

in 1948- the only event arabs were moved out of their homes. this was a war arabs have invaded inside israel aganist UN descision. they have also wthnicly cleansed Iraq from jews in that war.
both sides suffered from their invasion.

since 1948, israel relocated only Jews. in 1979 from sinai and in 2005 from gaza strip.
all the settelments were on empty lands ofcaurse.
israel is doing your policy- but only to herself.
no arab have lost his home since israel estublished. i mean, except for building a road or something- and then he gets a new one.

I say they should have gotten a piece of Germany because Germany had been severely damaged by WW2 and needed major rebuilding. So homes were already lost to those who either fled, died in war, or decided to immigrate elsewhere after the war. I believe it would have been an easy, at least easier than the current situation, fix to giving them their homeland. But what is done is done, and I do not believe that modern Germany should be forced to give up a piece of their land.

In any case, if you think Israel relocates Palestinians just to make better roads, highways, etc etc and not for any other reasons (or that they even get a house in return), you are mistaken.

Just read a little bit:
http://www.btselem.org/English/Punitive ... /Index.asp
http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/info/MDE15/033/2004
http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/info/MDE15/007/2007
http://www.btselem.org/english/Punitive ... istics.asp
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/no ... lestinians
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2005/61690.htm

Thats all the Jews wanted after WW2 was to be rounded up and shipped to Germany to live far far away from the horrors of the Holocaust.

Beggars can't be choosers, I say.

I don't see how my idea on how Jews should have been given a piece of Germany in the late 1940s relates to Zionism today. It was my opinion and my own view that I stated, and discussion about it doesn't relate to the original post so it should probably stop being discussed.

Beggars? Who Begged?



You do that Cuban, you do that.